Amazing Facts News Release, www.amazingfacts.org Options

[Fran]

I think it is one of the illusions that many of us have had, that, since Doug Batchelor is an employed Adventist minister, that the ministry, Amazing Facts, must be a denominational entity. That is simply not the case. And the merger with 3abn shows very clearly that it is not the case.

For background in how the relationship between 3abn and the denomination has developed during the years, it would be instructive.... for those who have not done so yet.... to look up the documents on this site that were created in 1997. Briefly, in the spring of 97, Folkenberg tried to get 3abn to sign a contract with the church organization. 3abn refused, with Bill Hulsey writing a letter of explanation as to why an independent ministry would not consider having any kind of contract with the church organization. That letter also is on this site. We do not, however, have any of the correspondence that we are told continued on through the following months... culminating in an agreement between the two entities. We do, however, have the final document, which was signed by Folkenberg and the next two highest men in the church. It seems apparent that 3abn itself authored this, for essentially it was a very one-sided document... giving the church no lines of control over 3abn, but giving 3abn a blank check promise to promote them in all Divisions of the world.... which 3abn has used as their entry permit into churches around the world.

Interestingly enough.... this agreement was seemingly never questioned after Folkenberg was forced out of office just a few months later due to some shady negotiations with which he had been involved.

And all of this negotiation in 1997 needs to be set in the context of certain earlier private letters which I have personally seen, in which Folkenberg was expressing great displeasure because 3abn had refused a request for 3abn to include Al McClure, in his position as NAD President, to be included as a board member of 3abn!
The official questions and answers which are posted above which indicate that the new merged entities will remain as "supporting ministries" and will NOT become denominational entities... and also the statement about having a board that is composed of lay members... strongly suggests that 3abn is once more determined to not allow the church org to have any official voice in the direction they intend to go... and certainly no ability to control anything that they might do in the future.

Thus once more, the church is giving away its rights and obligations to retain responsibility for how it is represented to the world. The question arises, is this because they are already powerless to have any say in this matter? or.......
Again... more questions are raised than are answered with each new set of "answers" we get.

.................................

Amazing Facts is a self supporting ministry of the North California Conference of Seventh-day Adventists.

[princessdi]

I agree with WB. AF neither 3ABN are denominational entities. They are as they state "sefl funded' entities. Now the people involved for the most part are Adventist and promote Adventism at this time. But I think there is where the question came from, that one or both are presently seen as denominational entities. I also agree that is is an illusion that has been allowed to continue to each ministries advantage.

Now, as someone who's job is basically going under the same kind of thing. I can tell you now that this FAQ has "merger" written all over it. One will eventuall take over the other. Contrary to what Eirene has been screaming at us, Danny will not be running 3ABN as usual for now on. He will only be therefor the next few months while they work out the kinks. One very possibly being his departure, fortunately for him with a lot more grace and dignity he afforded Linda(and I am still asking willhe walk as a co founder or an employee and consider his 250K severance generous). All of those answers including "we currently have no plans" or "there are not plans at this time" means those is exactly the issues they are trying to work out. Doug will be President, Danny may or may not be in the background. They will be changing some or all of the programming, bethat schedule changes or trashing certain shows altogether....leaving the door wide open for the eventual and gradual elmination of shows like the Danny's show, especially is they are moving him from the forefront. They could possibly change the name by combining them or changin it altogether. Anything that is till being discussed or has no curretly plans is up for grabs which by this FAQ is everything, but Doug leaving CA and his church.

If the merger will not put 3ABN under the control of the denomination, does that mean that the merger will take Amazing Facts away from denominational control?

Or will 3ABN remain lay led and Amazing Facts remain a denominational entity while both become a single lay-led entity under the control of a board that is not a denominational entity?

Does anyone know how a denominational entity can be lay led and under the control of a board that is not a denominational entity?

Frannie( I hope you don't mind ), I believe it is more like, "Amazing Facts if a self supporting ministry headquartered within the NCC of SDAs. That "self-supporting" pretty much ensures the conference has absolutely no control over AF. It is only tied to the church because it is decidely SDA in it's orientation and beliefs. If they decided to become Baptist tomorrow( not gonna happen), the church would just have to let go and let God. It is also what is aid in the language of this FAQ.

Amazing Facts is a self supporting ministry of the North California Conference of Seventh-day Adventists.

[Pickle]

I think it is one of the illusions that many of us have had, that, since Doug Batchelor is an employed Adventist minister, that the ministry, Amazing Facts, must be a denominational entity. That is simply not the case.

I think you may be missing something.

A-Facts is listed in the Adventist Yearbook. Weimar is not. They are in the same conference. Why the difference if A-Facts is not a denominational entity?

You might find a minister at a self-supporting ministry that is paid by the conference. But I think at A-Facts it isn't just Doug that is paid that way.

From News Release: 4/17/2007 Employment Opportunities:

News Release: 4/17/2007 Employment Opportunities

All applicants must be cleared or approved to work in the United States.

Although Amazing Facts, Inc. is an equal opportunity employer that does not discriminate in its employment policies and practices on the basis of race, national origin, gender, color, age, marital status, disability, or any other basis prohibited by law, it is a religious association and a part of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. The employment practices reflect religious preferences in harmony with the U.S. Constitution and controlling law, and it therefore hires only Seventh-day Adventist Church members in good standing.

Employees of Amazing Facts are extended the same benefit package as NAD denominational employees. Employee transfers from other NAD denominational institutions are seamlessly accomplished.

Thus there own website says that they are a denominational entity, a "NAD denominational insitution." Right?

Am I missing something?

[watchbird]

I think you may be missing something.

A-Facts is listed in the Adventist Yearbook. Weimar is not. They are in the same conference. Why the difference if A-Facts is not a denominational entity?

That is a very good question. Maybe you could find out the answer for us.

You might find a minister at a self-supporting ministry that is paid by the conference. But I think at A-Facts it isn't just Doug that is paid that way.

From News Release: 4/17/2007 Employment Opportunities:

QUOTE
News Release: 4/17/2007 Employment Opportunities

All applicants must be cleared or approved to work in the United States.

Although Amazing Facts, Inc. is an equal opportunity employer that does not discriminate in its employment policies and practices on the basis of race, national origin, gender, color, age, marital status, disability, or any other basis prohibited by law, it is a religious association and a part of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. The employment practices reflect religious preferences in harmony with the U.S. Constitution and controlling law, and it therefore hires only Seventh-day Adventist Church members in good standing.

Employees of Amazing Facts are extended the same benefit package as NAD denominational employees. Employee transfers from other NAD denominational institutions are seamlessly accomplished.

Thus there own website says that they are a denominational entity, a "NAD denominational insitution." Right?

Am I missing something?

I think you are.... the phrase I bolded above perhaps?

If "Employees of Amazing Facts are extended the same benefit package as NAD denominational employees"... doesn't that imply that they are NOT denominational employees?

The questions are...
Who cuts the checks for the employees? and
Where do the funds come from upon which the checks are drawn?

Does the Conference treasurer send out the checks?
Or does Amazing Facts pay their employees directly?

If the Conference treasurer sends out the checks... from what funds are these written? Are they in the Conference budget... or are they passed to the conference from donations specifically given to Amazing Facts?


Metinks dese guys 'r "playin wif our minds". .....

Best get out the magnifying glass and examine the "fine print".

[princessdi]

WB, I would also point out this answer int he FAQ. It inferes that neither at this time is a denominational institution, nor will the become one.

Q. Does the proposed union mean control of 3ABN will be assumed by the SDA denomination?

A. No. Both Amazing Facts and 3ABN will fall under a new board to be led by laity. Although Amazing Facts and 3ABN are self-funded entities, both organizations are supportive of the denomination and encourage people to be active at their local church. This policy will continue under the new union. New bylaws are being prepared to preserve that grassroots principle of lay leadership.

[awesumtenor]

That is a very good question. Maybe you could find out the answer for us.
I think you are.... the phrase I bolded above perhaps?

If "Employees of Amazing Facts are extended the same benefit package as NAD denominational employees"... doesn't that imply that they are NOT denominational employees?

The questions are...
Who cuts the checks for the employees? and
Where do the funds come from upon which the checks are drawn?

Does the Conference treasurer send out the checks?
Or does Amazing Facts pay their employees directly?

If the Conference treasurer sends out the checks... from what funds are these written? Are they in the Conference budget... or are they passed to the conference from donations specifically given to Amazing Facts?
Metinks dese guys 'r "playin wif our minds". .....

Best get out the magnifying glass and examine the "fine print".

I think the operative words precede those you bolded; particularly the part that says:

"Amazing Facts, Inc. is an equal opportunity employer that does not discriminate in its employment policies and practices on the basis of race, national origin, gender, color, age, marital status, disability, or any other basis prohibited by law, it is a religious association and a part of the Seventh-day Adventist Church
..."

Contrast that with 3ABN: "3ABN is not owned, operated or funded by any church, denomination or organization"... it then goes on to mention that many who staff and run 3abn are members of the Adventist church...

One part overtly states they are a part of the Adventist church; one part says that they are not... can two walk together except they be agreed?

In His service,
Mr. J

[Seraphim7]

I think the operative words precede those you bolded; particularly the part that says:

"Amazing Facts, Inc. is an equal opportunity employer that does not discriminate in its employment policies and practices on the basis of race, national origin, gender, color, age, marital status, disability, or any other basis prohibited by law, it is a religious association and a part of the Seventh-day Adventist Church
..."

Contrast that with 3ABN: "3ABN is not owned, operated or funded by any church, denomination or organization"... it then goes on to mention that many who staff and run 3abn are members of the Adventist church...

One part overtly states they are a part of the Adventist church; one part says that they are not... can two walk together except they be agreed?

In His service,
Mr. J

Mat 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
Mar 3:25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
Luk 11:17 But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house [divided] against a house falleth.

[Observer]

Amazing Facts. Is it, or is it not a Seventh-day Adventist institution? My take on it:


AF is clearly listed in the YEARBOOK as an institution of the Northern California Conference of Seventh-day Adventists.. Yet it is though to have a some sort of independent status. So, what is the truth.

It should be noted that the YEARBOOK lists Moriah Media, also as an institution of the Northern California Conference, and lists it address as the same as the address for Amazing Facts.

Amazing Facts was registered with the State of California as a church in April 1947. Moriah Media was also registered with the State of California that same month, and it is listed as a religious organization, and apparently is a holding company for Amazing Facts television.

In the YEARBOOK the address for Amazing Facts is listed at the "title holding company" for Amazing facts.

My take on this is that this establishes Amazing Facts as a Seventh-day Adventist institution. However, it appears to be governed by a Board which is organizationally independent of the SDA Church. I acknowledge that it has SDA denominational leaders on that Board. So, some might challenge my statement as to its independence.

The reality is, as I see it, that the separate status of the Board releases the Northern California Conference from funding it. It allows AF to maintain its own control, and independence. Yet, the SDAs on the Board give the organized church a voice in its affairs.

Could it separate from the denomination? In theory yes, it could. However, it could probably be argued that such would not happen easily.

Let me illustrate how I believe that this relationship exists in practical terms. I live in a Conference where a group of SDAs established a congregation with the intent to do "cutting edge" ministry. They called themselves Grace Place. They established a formal relationship with the Rocky Mountain Conference. But they held title to the property that they owned, and they were independently controlled by a Board of their selection. The RM Conference acknowledged them as a SDA Church, and their minister was credentialed by the RM Conference, and on its payroll. It its development as a congregation, it later moved outside of the SDA Church, and became totally independent. The RM Conference withdrew recognition. It's minister went off of the payroll,. and was no longer credentialed by the SDA Church. But, for several years, it was an organized SDA church in the Rocky Mountain Conference.

I do not intend to imply that Amazing Facts will ever do what Grace Place did. My point it that the SDA Church does allow certain independent organizations to be knows as SDA institutions, who do have some degree of independence.

This is not true for all organizations.

Weimer College and Health Center is not so listed as an institution of the Northern California Conference.

3-ABN is not so listed under the Illinois Conference.

So, it can be fairly said that Amazing Facts is more closely related to the denomination than is 3-ABN.

Because of that close relationship AF follows denominaitonal policy in ways that other organizaitons may not.

AF hires SDAs. It follows a denominational pay scale. Policies are in effect that allow people to transfer between it and employment in the NAD. This does not happen withe other organizations. One cannot easily transfer in employment between 3-ABN and employent in the NAD in regard to service credit.



This post has been edited by Observer: Apr 26 2007, 07:36 PM

[princessdi]

Ok, I accept that Pastor. But what does that mean for the "merger"? Danny is not remotely interested in letting the denom have any kind of control ove 3ABN.

[Skyhook]

Within the last 2 weeks I saw a little of a sermon by DB and he said that alhtough he is president of Amazing facts, he is a SDA minister and is paid as such, on the same scale as any other SDA minister. He seemed to be saying that even though he is also the senior pastor of the Sacramento Central Church, he does not double dip. He said that his conference salary is returned by Amazing Facts to the conference. I don't know how old that sermon was, and I didn't hear the whole thing, but that is what I understood from what he said.

Also, a few months ago there was a rumor here in NCC that DB wanted to move the Sac Central Church out to Roseville, not far from Sacramento, and also build a new media center there. Perhaps this merger is an alternate plan.

[princessdi]

Yes, skyhook that has been the buzz for a while about the new media center in Roeville.

If that is what DB says, then his salary is paid by AF not the NCC. I am not sure why they are choosing to do it that way, though. Well, it is the same arrangement for JL at 3ABN, but they only pay a portion of his salary.

Within the last 2 weeks I saw a little of a sermon by DB and he said that alhtough he is president of Amazing facts, he is a SDA minister and is paid as such, on the same scale as any other SDA minister. He seemed to be saying that even though he is also the senior pastor of the Sacramento Central Church, he does not double dip. He said that his conference salary is returned by Amazing Facts to the conference. I don't know how old that sermon was, and I didn't hear the whole thing, but that is what I understood from what he said.

Also, a few months ago there was a rumor here in NCC that DB wanted to move the Sac Central Church out to Roseville, not far from Sacramento, and also build a new media center there. Perhaps this merger is an alternate plan.

[Pickle]

Could it separate from the denomination? In theory yes, it could. However, it could probably be argued that such would not happen easily.

Before Amazing Facts can switch from being a denominational entity to an independent ministry, they probably will need to get the approval of their constituents, just like what I'm told was needed before they could move from Maryland to California.

Anyone know any constituents and what they think about the merger?

WB, I would also point out this answer int he FAQ. It inferes that neither at this time is a denominational institution, nor will the become one.

Actually, its very wording to me suggests that A-Facts is a denominational entity. The question wasn't, Will A-Facts and 3ABN come under denominational control? It was only, Will 3ABN come under such control?

And why ask the question at all? Because since a-Facts is a denominational entity, its merging with 3ABN raises that question. If A-Facts wasn't part of the denomination, the question wouldn't need to be asked.

By the way, PB has gotten official word that A-Facts is under the conferences umbrella, and that if the merger takes place, they no longer will be.

[Observer]

Within the last 2 weeks I saw a little of a sermon by DB and he said that alhtough he is president of Amazing facts, he is a SDA minister and is paid as such, on the same scale as any other SDA minister. He seemed to be saying that even though he is also the senior pastor of the Sacramento Central Church, he does not double dip. He said that his conference salary is returned by Amazing Facts to the conference. I don't know how old that sermon was, and I didn't hear the whole thing, but that is what I understood from what he said.

Also, a few months ago there was a rumor here in NCC that DB wanted to move the Sac Central Church out to Roseville, not far from Sacramento, and also build a new media center there. Perhaps this merger is an alternate plan.

Yes, Doug Batchelor is listed in the YEARBOOK as a credentialed SDA minister. (See page 771 of the 2007 edition.)

Yes, it is likely that he salery is paid by the Northern California Conference, that he does not recieve additional salery, that he is paid on the same salery scale as other NCC clergy, and that Amazing Facts may return to the NCC part or all of his salery and benefits package.

Yes, Elder Batchelor has wanted for some time to move the Sacramento congregation to another location, and/or build a media center.

Before Amazing Facts can switch from being a denominational entity to an independent ministry, they probably will need to get the approval of their constituents, just like what I'm told was needed before they could move from Maryland to California.

Anyone know any constituents and what they think about the merger?
Actually, its very wording to me suggests that A-Facts is a denominational entity. The question wasn't, Will A-Facts and 3ABN come under denominational control? It was only, Will 3ABN come under such control?

And why ask the question at all? Because since a-Facts is a denominational entity, its merging with 3ABN raises that question. If A-Facts wasn't part of the denomination, the question wouldn't need to be asked.

By the way, PB has gotten official word that A-Facts is under the conferences umbrella, and that if the merger takes place, they no longer will be.

If your last statement is accurate, that is earth-shaking information.

[inga]

By the way, PB has gotten official word that A-Facts is under the conferences umbrella, and that if the merger takes place, they no longer will be.

If that's true, AF employees may lose a lot of benefits, because AF most likely cannot immediately offer the same benefits as the denomination ...

Otoh, it would, of course, leave room for AF to adopt the same ... ahem ... "frugal" business practices as 3ABN. (Think free labor, minimum wage, no retiremet benefits, etc. I'm sure current 3ABN employees can fill out more details.)

In that case, it might be a wise decision for AF employess to look at their employment options ...

I've seen so many "unbelievable" things happening in the last several years, that nothing can really surprise me any more ...

This post has been edited by inga: Apr 27 2007, 08:25 AM

[Observer]

If that's true, AF employees may lose a lot of benefits, because AF most likely cannot immediately offer the same benefits as the denomination ...

Otoh, it would, of course, leave room for AF to adopt the same ... ahem ... "frugal" business practices as 3ABN. (Think free labor, minimum wage, no retiremet benefits, etc. I'm sure current 3ABN employees can fill out more details.)

In that case, it might be a wise decision for AF employess to look at their employment options ...

I've seen so many "unbelievable" things happening in the last several years, that nothing can really surprise me any more ...

It should be noted that if such were to happen, many of the employees would have earned retirement benefits, either present or future.

AF would then have to institute their salery and benefit package. Probably they would be able to match current denominational benefits and salery as it it likely that their present payroll expenses have come from their present income.

As to the future. . . . . . . . .?

If Doug Batchelor takes AF away from the denominational relationship that it presently has, how will that affect offering income?

If DB does the above, how will that affect DB's status as an credentialed SDA minister of the Northern California Conference, and asa pastor of Sacramento Central?

More questions? With each passing day, the questions increase.