The Lawsuit Continues., This is where we are, and what is happening. Options

[Johann]

Well I just thought we were going to go 24 hours without a 3abn post

It looks to me like a number of the posters are now on AdventTalk.com. This should give the worn-out BSDA some needed rest.

[Daryl Fawcett]

People are also posting more on Maritime SDA OnLine, which may also explain the lull here.

[Clay]

People are also posting more on Maritime SDA OnLine, which may also explain the lull here.

define lull...... there is no lull here..... people are discussing quite a few topics in the OTHER areas of BSDA.... is there anything new with the 3abn thing? didn't think so....

[Dona]

define lull...... there is no lull here..... people are discussing quite a few topics in the OTHER areas of BSDA.... is there anything new with the 3abn thing? didn't think so....

Good response Clay!

Dona

[Richard Sherwin]

Maybe when something new and/or meaningful comes up someone will post it here. Otherwise it's just so much same old same old.

Meaningful dialog? Yes. Mean dialog? No.

define lull...... there is no lull here..... people are discussing quite a few topics in the OTHER areas of BSDA.... is there anything new with the 3abn thing? didn't think so....

[Noahswife]

An objective review of the past few months will reveal that changes ae taking place at 3-ABN. A new President has been selected. There are changes that have taken place with the Executive Board. Policies are being put into place.

Some may wish to debate whether or not these changes are what is needed and whether or not they are enough. I am not going to comment on that pont. My central point is that changes are taking place. As we view these events it places responsibility on all parties to these issues to maximize this context to resolve the issues, settle the disputes and build positively for the future.

This is a time for men and women who are in positions of leadership to exercise boldness in seeking to resolve the conflicts that exist.

As things currently stand, 3-ABN, GAJ, and Bob Pickle are locked into litigation that is scheduled to continue into 2009 and/or beyond. This does not have to be. I have stated in the past that there are some issues that can only be resolved by the civil authorities. I continue to believe that is true. But, I believe that there are other issues that can be resolved by the three parties listed above. I believe that the issues included in the current litigation can be resolved outside of a legal process that takes us into 2009 and possibly beyond. If this can be accomplished, this would be in the interests of all.

To accomplish this will take bold leadership on the part of people who are willing to work to reach an agreement that both sides believe to be fair under the circumstances. It will not be an agreement in which either side will get everything that they want. Each side will have to give up some of what they want. Each side will have to be willing to give on some issues that are important to the other side.

In any case, I believe that the potential is here for resolution to be reached on issues relating to the current lawsuit, if we have leaders who are willing to exercise bold leadership.

NOTE: I have had comments made to me, which I am not going to discuss further due to confidentiality reasons, that came from people on both sides of this issue that indicate to me that there are people on both sides who wish to reach an appropriate settlement with the other side and resolve the issues without continuing through 2009.

Folks, it is a time for bold leadership. Feel free to quote me on this and to copy this post to any and all that you wish to read it.
I do not believe this will be an easy task. Some of the issues are emotionally loaded. There are some issues that will have to be faced which one side may not want to face. But, resolution will require that they be faced and dwelt with in a manner that both sides consider to be fair. The issue is: Are there men and women of boldness who will be willing to work to accomplish this task?

This post has been edited by Noahswife: Feb 4 2008, 05:18 PM

[Ian]

An objective review of the past few months will reveal that changes ae taking place at 3-ABN. A new President has been selected. There are changes that have taken place with the Executive Board. Policies are being put into place.

Some may wish to debate whether or not these changes are what is needed and whether or not they are enough. I am not going to comment on that pont. My central point is that changes are taking place. As we view these events it places responsibility on all parties to these issues to maximize this context to resolve the issues, settle the disputes and build positively for the future.

This is a time for men and women who are in positions of leadership to exercise boldness in seeking to resolve the conflicts that exist.

As things currently stand, 3-ABN, GAJ, and Bob Pickle are locked into litigation that is scheduled to continue into 2009 and/or beyond. This does not have to be. I have stated in the past that there are some issues that can only be resolved by the civil authorities. I continue to believe that is true. But, I believe that there are other issues that can be resolved by the three parties listed above. I believe that the issues included in the current litigation can be resolved outside of a legal process that takes us into 2009 and possibly beyond. If this can be accomplished, this would be in the interests of all.

To accomplish this will take bold leadership on the part of people who are willing to work to reach an agreement that both sides believe to be fair under the circumstances. It will not be an agreement in which either side will get everything that they want. Each side will have to give up some of what they want. Each side will have to be willing to give on some issues that are important to the other side.

In any case, I believe that the potential is here for resolution to be rached on issues relatiing to the current lawsuit, if we have leaders who are willing to exercise bold leadership.

NOTE: I have had comments made to me, which I am not going to discuss further due to confidentiality reasons, that came from people on both sides of this issue that indicate to me that there are people on both sides who wish to reach an appropriate settlement with the other side and resolve the issues without continuing through 2009.

Folks, it is a time for bold leadership. Feel free to quote me on this and to copy this post to any and all that you wish to read it.
I do not believe this will be an easy task. Some of the issues are emotionally loaded. There are some issues that will have to be faced which one side may not want to face. But, resolution will require that they be faced and dwelt with in a manner that both sides consider to be fair. The issue is: Are there men and women of boldness who will be willing to work to accomplish this task?

Gregory,

I have no idea what you are talking about here. Or who on both sides would say this to you. Are you talking bout those in these disussions on these forums? Or the actual litigants?

This is a lawsuit we are talking about. Pickle and Joy are being sued. It is not a mutual thing.

Just what is 3ABN supposed to settle on here, or give in on? DS. and 3ABN are the victims and have been falsely accused.

Attempts were already made to resolve this before the lawsuit, but Pickle and Joy wouldn't cooperate and be reasonable or give in on anything. ASI explained that. They are still as far as I know trying to force a public confession and restitution here, and bring changes they want. Has that changed????

I can't see how, even you are here talking about changes..

Why would 3ABN give into such wickedness and wrong behavior? They have maintained they are not guilty of what Pickle and Joy have been claiming (repeating from others) all along.

Pickle and Joy have repeatedly published allegations from anonymous sources which they have reworded, and presented as they saw fit, but they are without sufficient evidence to prove these things as factual. and thus to prove they are not guilty of defamation of character.

They have all along tried to get evidence to prove what they are saying, and accusing 3abn of from 3abn, ( instead of from their sources who made the claims to begin with) and even now thnk that they can do so through the discovery part of this case.

That's a pipe dream. They have published lies, surmisings, and false accusations and judgments..

They seem to think this lawsuit is a phishing trip or a investigation. It's not. They should already have documented and checked out all, and been able to prove their accusations and allegations BEFORE THEY SAID AND PUBLISHED THEM.

Some here, myself included have repeatedly tried to explain this on the forums and aren't believed. People keep saying "read save3abn, read the forums the evidence is there."

No, it's not near what is needed, and Picke and Joy admitted it in court.

I'm sure even when it comes from the horses mouth some will argue, make excuses and not believe it, and say it's not so.

Over and over, repeatedly in their over 50 page reply to all the accusations of slanderous statements in the lawsuit, Pickle and Joy in their joint answer said the same exact thing:


"Defendants are publishing a allegation that is a restatement of a protected source or sources. Plaintiffs have been unresponsive to the allegations or are factually challenged. Therefore, defendants are without sufficient evidence upon which to state a fact based response and request the right to supplement their response upon completion of discovery.Therefore denied."

So it looks to me like they are going to end up losing, and although I would like to see this settled, and think we are all better served here behaving as christians and disagreeing as respectfully as possible while discussing all these issues, my opinions haven't changed.

I do not see how it is possible to reason with those who are unreasonable, and who even now are continuing to make accusations and allegations against DS and 3ABN without sufficient evidence, and often none at all. (see adventtalk forum " it's believed Danny had an affair with Tammy Larson, her husband was fired or replaced as he knew too much"-- all lies!)

How can both sides reach a settlement in these issues when the behavior and tactics and type of accusations, gossip and surmisings which led to the lawsuit, continue??

This post has been edited by Ian: Feb 5 2008, 07:12 AM

[Dona]

Gregory,

I have no idea what you are talking about here. Or who on both sides would say this to you. Are you talking bout those in these disussions on these forums? Or the actual litigants?

This is a lawsuit we are talking about. Pickle and Joy are being sued. It is not a mutual thing.

Just what is 3ABN supposed to settle on here, or give in on? DS. and 3ABN are the victims and have been falsely accused.

Attempts were already made to resolve this before the lawsuit, but Pickle and Joy wouldn't cooperate and be reasonable or give in on anything. ASI explained that. They are still as far as I know trying to force a public confession and restitution here, and bring changes they want. Has that changed????

I can't see how, even you are here talking about changes..

Why would 3ABN give into such wickedness and wrong behavior? They have maintained they are not guilty of what Pickle and Joy have been claiming (repeating from others) all along.

Pickle and Joy have repeatedly published allegations from anonymous sources which they have reworded, and presented as they saw fit, but they are without sufficient evidence to prove these things as factual. and thus to prove they are not guilty of defamation of character.

They have all along tried to get evidence to prove what they are saying, and accusing 3abn of from 3abn, ( instead of from their sources who made the claims to begin with) and even now thnk that they can do so through the discovery part of this case.

That's a pipe dream. They have published lies, surmisings, and false accusations and judgments..

They seem to think this lawsuit is a phishing trip or a investigation. It's not. They should already have documented and checked out all, and been able to prove their accusations and allegations BEFORE THEY SAID AND PUBLISHED THEM.

Some here, myself included have repeatedly tried to explain this on the forums and aren't believed. People keep saying "read save3abn, read the forums the evidence is there."

No, it's not near what is needed, and Picke and Joy admitted it in court.

I'm sure even when it comes from the horses mouth some will argue, make excuses and not believe it, and say it's not so.

Over and over, repeatedly in their over 50 page reply to all the accusations of slanderous statements in the lawsuit, Pickle and Joy in their joint answer said the same exact thing:


"Defendants are publishing a allegation that is a restatement of a protected source or sources. Plaintiffs have been unresponsive to the allegations or are factually challenged. Therefore, defendants are without sufficient evidence upon which to state a fact based response and request the right to supplement their response upon completion of discovery.Therefore denied."

So it looks to me like they are going to end up losing, and although I would like to see this settled, and think we are all better served here behaving as christians and disagreeing as respectfully as possible while discussing all these issues, my opinions haven't changed.

I do not see how it is possible to reason with those who are unreasonable, and who even now are continuing to make accusations and allegations against DS and 3ABN without sufficient evidence, and often none at all. (see adventtalk forum " it's believed Danny had an affair with Tammy Larson, her husband was fired or replaced as he knew too much"-- all lies!)

How can both sides reach a settlement in these issues when the behavior and tactics and type of accusations, gossip and surmisings which led to the lawsuit, continue??

Very well said; precise and to the point Ian!

[Observer]

Gregory,

I have no idea what you are talking about here. Or who on both sides would say this to you. Are you talking bout those in these disussions on these forums? Or the actual litigants?. . .


I can't see how, even you are here talking about changes.. . . .

Why would 3ABN give into such wickedness and wrong behavior? They have maintained they are not guilty of what Pickle and Joy have been claiming (repeating from others) all along. . . .


That's a pipe dream. They have published lies, surmisings, and false accusations and judgments.. . . .


I do not see how it is possible to reason with those who are unreasonable, . . .

How can both sides reach a settlement in these issues when the behavior and tactics and type of accusations, gossip and surmisings which led to the lawsuit, continue??

Ian, I havs selected a few of your comments. On the basis of what I have selected, it does not look to me like you can be in any part of a process of resolution. Perhaps you can be.

However, I still believe that there is a moment in time when people of boldness can reach a resoluition of certain of the issues. Others will have to be resolved in the civil courts by the civil authorities.

[Ian]

Ian, I havs selected a few of your comments. On the basis of what I have selected, it does not look to me like you can be in any part of a process of resolution. Perhaps you can be.

However, I still believe that there is a moment in time when people of boldness can reach a resoluition of certain of the issues. Others will have to be resolved in the civil courts by the civil authorities.

You didn't identify any comments you selected...


Regardless, but of course not. I have nothing to do with the lawsuit, nor any possible resolution/settlement, which I presumed, (from your post) that you were talking about.

Neither, may I add, do you have anything to do with that.

I did think I raised some valid issues and concerns however, which could get in the way of any resolution or settlement, and asked for clarification of who and what you were talking about, none of that has been addressed...

All of this seems typical to me in these discussions, so how can anything be resolved?




This post has been edited by Ian: Feb 5 2008, 01:06 PM

[sister]

Gregory,

Pickle and Joy have repeatedly published allegations from anonymous sources which they have reworded, and presented as they saw fit, but they are without sufficient evidence to prove these things as factual. and thus to prove they are not guilty of defamation of character.

How can both sides reach a settlement in these issues when the behavior and tactics and type of accusations, gossip and surmisings which led to the lawsuit, continue??

Ian, I am quite surprised that you would make the above accusations considering your posts here on BSDA. Since your behavior mirrors the accusations made against Joy and Pickle— the primary difference being their information is often based upon public record and includes named sources, while you make wild accusations without once giving any verifiable source. Joy and Pickle have posted their information publically on the internet, you have made your accusations publically on the internet. Many of your accusations could be considered intentionally malicious in nature, with the singular purpose of silencing opposition to the position you represent in your defense of Danny Shelton. Ian, have you considered the fact that you may have recently opened yourself up to the possibility of a potential lawsuit for defamation of character? Think about it, Ian...

Sister

[Observer]

You didn't identify any comments you selected...


Regardless, but of course not. I have nothing to do with the lawsuit, nor any possible resolution/settlement, which I presumed, (from your post) that you were talking about.

Neither, may I add, do you have anything to do with that.

I did think I raised some valid issues and concerns however, which could get in the way of any resolution or settlement, and asked for clarification of who and what you were talking about, none of that has been addressed...

All of this seems typical to me in these discussions, so how can anything be resolved?

Of course I am not going to go public with the information that you request. If there are people of bold vision who discuss possible resolution of the issues, that will at some point have to be private. Later, it can be public.

You do make some interesting assumptions. Again, it would not be helpful to go public in a response.

This post has been edited by Observer: Feb 5 2008, 02:33 PM

[appletree]

Ian, I am quite surprised that you would make the above accusations considering your posts here on BSDA. Since your behavior mirrors the accusations made against Joy and Pickle— the primary difference being their information is often based upon public record and includes named sources, while you make wild accusations without once giving any verifiable source. Joy and Pickle have posted their information publically on the internet, you have made your accusations publically on the internet. Many of your accusations could be considered intentionally malicious in nature, with the singular purpose of silencing opposition to the position you represent in your defense of Danny Shelton. Ian, have you considered the fact that you may have recently opened yourself up to the possibility of a potential lawsuit for defamation of character? Think about it, Ian...

Sister

On the contrary Sister, Ian has never been one to make "wild accusations." You hold "First Place" in that event. In fact, Ian has been great to post court records and documents showing plainly where the Pickle/Joy team have given contradictory statements to the court. They hang themselves with their own words and testimony.

As for your threat of lawsuits, I had to laugh. If you think Ian could be charged with defamation character, where does that leave you, Pickle and Joy with all of your accusations, lies and fairy tale stories? If you really think that Ian has given grounds to be sued then you must know that you, Pickle, Joy and others are going down, down, down. If you continue to dig yourself even deeper, somewhere in the future, your name and the name of your cohorts will be under Webster's definition of defamation. Your case will be used as a law textbook case as was Joy's and his embezzlement.

[appletree]

Of course I am not going to go public with the information that you request. If there are people of bold vision who discuss possible resolution of the issues, that will at some point have to be private. Later, it can be public.

You do make some interesting assumptions. Again, it would not be helpful to go public in a response.

Greg,

I am somewhat surprised to see that you have joined the "other sides" altered world of reality. Some of your posts about settlements and give and take where this lawsuit is concerned is ludicrous. 3ABN will not "settle" with the people who have hurt the gospel enough to be sued, in the first place. How ridiculous would that be?

People need to realize that 3ABN will not settle with Pickle and Joy as there is nothing to settle. Pickle and Joy have unlawfully slandered 3ABN and continue to do so. It appears they are finally realizing that that they could end up in jail if they keep being dishonest with the court. Contempt of court is no small thing. Giving the bankruptcy court different information than the Federal court, could end up with Joy going to jail.

They are falling apart. They started together in this suit with the so called great Laird Heal. Joy knifed Pickle leaving him financially responsible when 3ABN wins the court case. Why? Joy was trying to put himself out of harm by filing bankruptcy but it left poor Bob in a, shall we say "Pickle". The court saw this and said that Laird Heal could not now be Pickles attorney. Poor Pickle now had to fend for himself.
The question could be asked to their followers as what they have won so far. Look at the court records. They have now lost their web site, Joy and Laird have been quilty of contempt of court and have to pay $1,000 each! Now where is a man that only has, according to his bankruptcy records, $2.00 to his name going to pay a $1,000 fine? Now if he is able to come up with the $1,000 to pay his fine will the bankruptcy court now also want to fine him for not showing that he had $1,000 hidden somewhere. If it is a gift from someone is he going to pay taxes on the money? If so, where is he going to get the extra tax money. Also on a spiritual note, will he pay tithe on this income? If so, will he offer the court the $900.00 left and take the chance of going to jail or will he short change God and take the chance of robbing God? This kind of scenerio can go on and on......
So, who wants to settle?

Changes that have been made at 3ABN are not what they want. Danny is still very much involved with 3ABN. In fact there are whispers, that instead of firing him as Joy and Picke want 3ABN to do , 3ABN is negotiationing a long term contract with Danny so that he doesn't ever resign from 3ABN and walk away!
Gregory, you say that there have been changes to the 3ABN executive committee. What changes have been made and if so what difference does it make in 3ABN's governance?
You said that policies are being made. The truth is, New policies have been put in place since the beginning of the ministry. Each year, with growth and changing laws every business makes changes or stands the chance of putting themselves at risk. This is nothing new at 3ABN. Pickle, Joy and Linda are not factors in the ever changing, ever growing policies and decisions made at 3ABN. Why would they be? Every day Pickle and Joy have less credibility with church leaders and church members. They are now looked at by many leaders as men out to destroy the SDA church

This suit is not about a give and take. Their will be no compromises on 3ABN's Part! If 3abn were to ever consider dropping the suit, the only negotiations, will be about Pickle and Joy recanting much of what they have said and done as they have spread lies that have hurt the cause of God. 3ABN, as well as their supporters and church officials, see these men as enemies of the gospel. They are not about spreading the gospel but trying to stop the gospel.

[princessdi]

Appletree, I think I undertannad your...frustration, and your point. However, I have a hard time equating 3ABN or Danny with "The Gospel". Now they may believe that Bob and GJ have hurt an independent ministry who is attempting to spread the gospel, but they are not "the gospel themselves. Neither are the the only ones engaged in this minstry. In fact, nothing any human does can hurt the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The only thing that can be hurt or hampered is 3ABN's efforts in spreading the gospel, and while noble valiant and even Godly, they are not necessary to the spreading of the gospel. It is their privilege to be a part of God's plan, His Workwill go on with or without Danny or 3ABN.

That being said, 3ABN did not NEED to sue anyone. they chose to. Not God's choice but the choice of Danny and the 3ABN board and financial supporter uin this endeavor, becuase their coffiers were being depleted. God does not need humans to "defend" Him. 3ABN is not in court defneding God against Bob and GJ. They are there defending themselves and the tools of satan they occasionally employed to attempt to do God's work. one more time, ALL Danny and W had to do from the beginning was to answer Bob's questions when he first posed them, in email, etc.