Where Is John Osborne?, Are his talents not appreciated? Options

[PeacefulBe]

Are you at liberty to say where you were involved with the Historic Adventists? I, too, looked at the BCGG web site and saw that apparently they have a "sister church" in Indiana. Curious that they both share the same Indiana telephone #!!

http://www.egfellowship.org/

As for being spiritually vulnerable, I can surely understand that. I have found some peace by focusing only on Jesus and what He has done for us and putting everything else in line behind that theory.

Bless you, Willow - you'll be just fine!!

~~Snoopy~~

Hi Snoopy,

There is no mystery. If you look at the "Pastor" link on egfellowship.com, you will find that he pastors both churches.

[WillowRun]

Are you at liberty to say where you were involved with the Historic Adventists? I, too, looked at the BCGG web site and saw that apparently they have a "sister church" in Indiana. Curious that they both share the same Indiana telephone #!!

http://www.egfellowship.org/

As for being spiritually vulnerable, I can surely understand that. I have found some peace by focusing only on Jesus and what He has done for us and putting everything else in line behind that theory.

Bless you, Willow - you'll be just fine!!

~~Snoopy~~

I was involved in a church, since disbanded, in north central Arkansas. This church was affiliated loosely with Steps 2 Life.

I do focus on Jesus first and EGW second. If EGW doesn't jive with the Bible, I set it aside and go on.

Willow

[WillowRun]

John Osborne was seriously involved in the "Historic SDA" movement. I was majorly burned by the historic SDA movement....I don't ever want to go there again. I was a newly baptised Adventist Christian who was lead astray by well meaning people trolling NAD Adventist churches for converts to their cause. I left the church for more than ten years because of my involvement with historic adventists...

I found this on the internet.. http://www.adherents.com/people/po/John_Osborne.html

Back on Track
The John Osborne Story
[written by] John Osborne with Ken Wade
- 160 pages, paperback
- ISBN 0-8163-1645-7
- US$10.99, Cdn$15.99

Zeal, hate, and videotape
An academy principal once told John Osborne's parents, "By the time John is twenty-one, he's either going to be in the state penitentiary or he's going to be a dynamic, powerful man of God."

He was right.

John did become a gifted evangelist and a zealous defender of truth. Extraordinary leadership skills and a dogged determination to follow what is right caused John to rapidly ascend the heights of ministerial success as a Seventh-day Adventist minister. But those same headstrong characteristics would eventually cause him to collide with church leaders over the future of his successful television ministry. The pain of that collision landed John in a penitentiary of bitterness where zeal for the gospel turned into angry criticism of the church he once loved.

Back on Track is the incredible story of John Osborne--his rise to prominence, his fall into critical ministries, and his reconciliation with the church he nearly called "Babylon." It is a story of pride, rebellion, spiritual anarchy, and the dangerous mindset of those caught up in the "historic" Seventh-day Adventist movement. In these pages John candidly discusses what really happened to his Prophecy Countdown ministry. How he has faced his own problems, coped with criticism and condemnation, admitted his own guilt, and asked to be forgiven by God and man.

Back on Track contains an important message on delusion and reconciliation that will inspire you to study the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy with renewed fervor. It will also help you survive and rise above your own struggles with bitterness and the flaws of God's children.

In the interests of fairness, I had my library order Mr. Osborne's book via Inter Library Loan. I just finished it.

I must say that Mr. Osborne's recollections are similar to mine. I admire his courage and putting pen to paper on this subject. Ron Woolsey of Narrow Way ministries, performed my "Historic Sda" rebaptism. My first Baptism was performed by Charles Kohley a year earlier. I was not born into Adventism, but converted while in my 20s. I simply didn't know enough about my new church to make an informed decision about whose agenda to believe.

All this being said, I am still glad they chose Elder Gilley to try to turn things around at 3ABN. I hope that he is successful in this endeavour.

Respectfully,

Willow

[Brick Step]

For years I kept a copy of an article written by an Adventist educator from Norway, and originally published, as I recollect, in the Education magazine, decades ago. One of his major points, as I remember, was that in the final mark of the beast issue for this world, important though holding to right doctrinal beliefs might be, on its own it is not enough for salvation. Thousands even within Seventh-day Adventism will be lost at the last because of their relationship to those beliefs (which ultimately are personified in Jesus, of course).

Right now I cannot recollect the name of either the article or its writer, but I do remember thinking the article was brilliantly written, and conveyed a most powerful message. The writer ended by describing the rocky, ragged coastline of his homeland. He told of the centuries of time during which mighty ocean waves surged, crashed and beat mercilessly against this coastline. But always those rocks stood firm, immovable, resolutely guarding the land behind them from the inroads of the sea. The impression left with me was that God’s faithful children must stand for their Lord and the truth, like those rocks on the coastline of Norway. Resolute commitment to the truths of God’s word is a holy, living, loving and just exercise never to be confused with empty bigotry.

[Brick Step]

I have not read John Osborne’s book, and know nothing of his activities for the past few years. But is his repentance a perfect repentance? It is possible to repent of too little – or too much. Are we justified in making the bigotry of which John Osborne has repented, a personification of all that calls itself “historic Adventism” today? I think not.

Gomer, the harlot wife of the prophet Hosea, symbolized apostate Israel. But still, there was that faithful remnant—e.g. Daniel and his three friends—reminding all to be careful of a too rigid application of the apostasy label. I think we ought always to be careful both of our definition of the name "historic Adventist", and of a too rigid application of the "historic Adventist" label.

I have become increasingly wary of labels. Only the bigoted believe that bigotry is something which afflicts everyone except themselves and their particular belief system. “Critical brethren”—“bigots”—can be observed in all camps, - liberals, conservatives, middle-of-the-roaders, non-professing Christians, Catholics, Protestants, Baptists, Pentecostals, Lutherans, Anglicans, independents, even in the “Seventh-day Adventists in good and regular standing” camp, - and, dare I say it, even among administrators, scholars and evangelists. That, of course, is not just IMO. Inspiration carefully prophesies and warns against the bigotry that will characterise the majority of earth’s inhabitants at the end of time. The “angry red dragon”, the devil, “deceives the whole world” - except for a remnant (Rev 12:9, 17). While loudly accusing the remnant of bigotry, in God’s eyes it is the majority in the world who at the last are the real bigots.

[Brick Step]

WillowRun in Post #18 says, “I found this on the internet, http://www.adherents.com/people/po/John_Osborne.html

“… Back on Track is the incredible story of John Osborne--his rise to prominence, his fall into critical ministries, and his reconciliation with the church he nearly called "Babylon." It is a story of pride, rebellion, spiritual anarchy, and the dangerous mindset of those caught up in the "historic" Seventh-day Adventist movement…”

This is what I see as an objectionable and inflammatory ad hominem statement. IMO, among those subscribing to the doctrinal beliefs of “historic Seventh-day Adventism” (as those of other doctrinal persuasions) there are extremists, fanatics and bigots, those with a “dangerous mindset.” But they are a trial to bear even within the “historic Seventh-day Adventist movement.” Generally speaking, genuine historic Seventh-day Adventists could not be more unlike that. Far from having a “dangerous mindset”, they are humble, salt-of-the-earth Christians, striving to be like Jesus, desiring the best for their church, but also well aware of their own failings, rejoicing and resting in the salvation wrought for them by their Saviour, and ready to see even those "with a dangerous mindset", whether inside or outside of their midst, as their needy neighbour.

[FineArt]

Thank you Brickstep,

You said it so well, God bless.

[watchbird]

WillowRun in Post #18 says, “I found this on the internet, http://www.adherents.com/people/po/John_Osborne.html

“… Back on Track is the incredible story of John Osborne--his rise to prominence, his fall into critical ministries, and his reconciliation with the church he nearly called "Babylon." It is a story of pride, rebellion, spiritual anarchy, and the dangerous mindset of those caught up in the "historic" Seventh-day Adventist movement…”

This is what I see as an objectionable and inflammatory ad hominem statement. IMO, among those subscribing to the doctrinal beliefs of “historic Seventh-day Adventism” (as those of other doctrinal persuasions) there are extremists, fanatics and bigots, those with a “dangerous mindset.” But they are a trial to bear even within the “historic Seventh-day Adventist movement.” Generally speaking, genuine historic Seventh-day Adventists could not be more unlike that. Far from having a “dangerous mindset”, they are humble, salt-of-the-earth Christians, striving to be like Jesus, desiring the best for their church, but also well aware of their own failings, rejoicing and resting in the salvation wrought for them by their Saviour, and ready to see even those "with a dangerous mindset", whether inside or outside of their midst, as their needy neighbour.

I suggest that you did not read carefully enough.... and that since by your own witness you have not read the book, you have no basis for making a judgement as to whether this statement is "inflammatory" or whether it is a statement of fact... and one that John Osborne himself would agree with... and most likely DID approve of the way it was written.

As for whether it is an accurate description of the "'historic' Seventh-day Adventist movement", again, since you have not read the book, and are obviously not acquainted with the differences between the use of the word "historic" as a simple adjective to describe the history of SDAs and the use of the word "historic" as part of the name of a "movement" that has arisen in comparatively recent times WITHIN the mainstread Adventist Movement... a "Movement" within the Movement.... that sometimes organizes itself into an independent church and sometimes "works from within" to spread disatisfaction with today's Adventist Church.... then you have no basis for judging whether or not it applies to the "movement" which was led by John Osborne at the time.

And having been fairly well acquainted with the materials that John Osborne put out in his "hey-day", I can say with assurance that your words above describing your view of "historic Adventists" do not in the least bit fit the person that he was at that time nor the things that he said and did!

I do not yet know the extent of the current "Historic Adventist Movement". This was what I was just beginning to research when a number of things in my private life crashed in on me.... so I have not even yet returned to the research. But you (and others) can do it for yourself. I'll give you a few hints on how to start... and as you proceed you will find clues to other search criteria that will be helpful in finding more complete information. In google, do (at least) three different searches, using slightly different criteria. First search using just "historic Adventist". Here you will find a great number of things, including many mainline Adventist uses of the word, particularly things like their historic restored homes or villages. Next use "Historic Adventist Church". Here you will find an organized coalition of churches having some connection with John Grosball's organization.... (and possibly some other things as well). Finally, use the search criteria, "Historic Adventist Movement".

Before you get very far in this project, I think you will agree that there is little that can be said that applies to all uses of "historic Adventist". And bringing this back to where we started.... that means that no one can simply assume that whatever they read about "historic Adventist" was intended to apply to what he/she knows as "historic Adventist"... for it may be talking about something entirely different.

[WillowRun]

WillowRun in Post #18 says, “I found this on the internet, http://www.adherents.com/people/po/John_Osborne.html

“… Back on Track is the incredible story of John Osborne--his rise to prominence, his fall into critical ministries, and his reconciliation with the church he nearly called "Babylon." It is a story of pride, rebellion, spiritual anarchy, and the dangerous mindset of those caught up in the "historic" Seventh-day Adventist movement…”

This is what I see as an objectionable and inflammatory ad hominem statement. IMO, among those subscribing to the doctrinal beliefs of “historic Seventh-day Adventism” (as those of other doctrinal persuasions) there are extremists, fanatics and bigots, those with a “dangerous mindset.” But they are a trial to bear even within the “historic Seventh-day Adventist movement.” Generally speaking, genuine historic Seventh-day Adventists could not be more unlike that. Far from having a “dangerous mindset”, they are humble, salt-of-the-earth Christians, striving to be like Jesus, desiring the best for their church, but also well aware of their own failings, rejoicing and resting in the salvation wrought for them by their Saviour, and ready to see even those "with a dangerous mindset", whether inside or outside of their midst, as their needy neighbour.

In post 18 I copied and pasted the promo set forth by the publisher. Those were not my own words, nor were they intended by me as an "ad hominem statement". If you had read the entire thread before posting, you would have noted the post I made yesterday:

In the interests of fairness, I had my library order Mr. Osborne's book via Inter Library Loan. I just finished it.

I must say that Mr. Osborne's recollections are similar to mine. I admire his courage and putting pen to paper on this subject. Ron Woolsey of Narrow Way ministries, performed my "Historic Sda" rebaptism. My first Baptism was performed by Charles Kohley a year earlier. I was not born into Adventism, but converted while in my 20s. I simply didn't know enough about my new church to make an informed decision about whose agenda to believe.

All this being said, I am still glad they chose Elder Gilley to try to turn things around at 3ABN. I hope that he is successful in this endeavour.



I am just finding my way back to church after a 12 year hiatus. I really had to wrestle with even reading this book which was published by Pacific Press. I agree with Watch Bird do the research. I think there are many out there like me who, with the end of Mr. Osborne's and others indepdendant ministries, were left with no organization to belong to and fearing the organized SDA church to be Babylon. How do I know this? I was one of those people.

Respectfully,

Willow

[watchbird]

I must say that Mr. Osborne's recollections are similar to mine. I admire his courage and putting pen to paper on this subject. Ron Woolsey of Narrow Way ministries, performed my "Historic Sda" rebaptism. My first Baptism was performed by Charles Kohley a year earlier. I was not born into Adventism, but converted while in my 20s. I simply didn't know enough about my new church to make an informed decision about whose agenda to believe.

I am just finding my way back to church after a 12 year hiatus. I really had to wrestle with even reading this book which was published by Pacific Press. I agree with Watch Bird do the research. I think there are many out there like me who, with the end of Mr. Osborne's and others indepdendant ministries, were left with no organization to belong to and fearing the organized SDA church to be Babylon. How do I know this? I was one of those people.

Respectfully,

Willow

Thank you for your testimony, Willow.

I'd like to ask for a bit of clarification. On your previous post, which you quote here you say "Ron Woolsey of Narrow Way ministries, performed my "Historic Sda" rebaptism. My first Baptism was performed by Charles Kohley a year earlier."

I am not clear as to Ron's role. And am not acquainted with Charles Kohley so I'm not sure what you are saying here. Did Kohley baptize you into the standard SDA church... and Woolsey into the "Historic SDA church"? And would you mind saying more about the "12 year hiatus"? Are you saying that you were converted to Adventism, spent a year in the regular Adventist church, then joined an independent "Historic SDA" church... and then at some time that you have not indicated, left this church and avoided Adventists of either kind for 12 years?

If the details are too personal to want to put on the board, perhaps you would be willing to PM me with them?

Thanks,
WatchBird

[Brick Step]

In post 18 I copied and pasted the promo set forth by the publisher. Those were not my own words, nor were they intended by me as an "ad hominem statement". If you had read the entire thread before posting, you would have noted the post I made yesterday: ...

Willow
I was aware the quote which troubled me, while appearing in your post, was not originally made by you. I never ever meant to imply differently. I’m sorry for not having distinguished more clearly between your words and those you quoted from the internet site you gave.

It is interesting that perhaps this very experience illustrates a point I was trying to make. We can all at times use words and labels, in our minds applying them to one situation, but others looking on apply them to a different context and cause hurt thereby - or fear of hurt. When those hurt thereby protest, sometimes there is little empathy for their position, or they are not heard, because the mind of the one making the offending statement is still focused elsewhere, or else the wider harm caused was actually the desired outcome. I pray I on my part have heard your appeal.

I was very interested to read your personal testimony and feel grieved that new members must so often be put through so much in their search to find peace and equilibrium in the church. I, too, have a story to tell. New members, old members or something else, the devil is there today to ensure that all those seeking to follow Christ are under relentless challenge.

I have sought to learn from history. It seems to me that if there are big problems in a particular local church, and if it is impossible or impractical to attend another, it might be necessary for a time to homechurch. But we should remain in sympathy and contact with the wider membership. What blessings we miss if we forget or depreciate the fact of God's marvellous leading in the history of this movement.

Jesus lives! God’s promises are still real. We must hold on. His blessings upon you.

[WillowRun]

Thank you for your testimony, Willow.

I'd like to ask for a bit of clarification. On your previous post, which you quote here you say "Ron Woolsey of Narrow Way ministries, performed my "Historic Sda" rebaptism. My first Baptism was performed by Charles Kohley a year earlier."

I am not clear as to Ron's role. And am not acquainted with Charles Kohley so I'm not sure what you are saying here. Did Kohley baptize you into the standard SDA church... and Woolsey into the "Historic SDA church"? And would you mind saying more about the "12 year hiatus"? Are you saying that you were converted to Adventism, spent a year in the regular Adventist church, then joined an independent "Historic SDA" church... and then at some time that you have not indicated, left this church and avoided Adventists of either kind for 12 years?

If the details are too personal to want to put on the board, perhaps you would be willing to PM me with them?

Thanks,
WatchBird

I attended a conference SDA church from 1987 - 1991 without being a baptised member

I was baptised by Pastor Kohley in late February/early March on 1991. This was a conference baptism.

The historic movement was splittling our church during 1991-1993

I fell in with the Historic group in 1992 (I didn't understand the difference between the two groups occupying one church) These folks believed that Jesuits killed Marshall Grosball. There was another man named Jim Arabito who authored some works about the Jesuit infilltration of the SDA church. He died and the same rumors went round about his death as well. (I was well and truly brainwashed at this point. I was terrified of jackbooted thugs and prison camps for believers and the mark of the beast....I was not serving a loving merciful god at this point in my life. Some among this group were saying the Church was Babylon and then there were Jan Marcusson's news letters)

I attended a Historic SDA Church--Pleasant Valley Layman's Chapel from the summer of 1992 to 1994. It was an 80 mile drive one way. The preaching was good and so were my fellow church members.

I was rebaptised by Ron Woolsey in October of 1992. I believe he obtained his ordination via Steps to Life. He has since reconciled with and is employed by the SDA Conference. He also dedicated my two oldest daughters. I hold him in the highest esteem to this day.

My twins were born in 1993. They were dedicated by Elder Peter Jackson. He now volunteers for 3abn.

Prophecy countdown imploded about 1995 ish. Pastor Osborne wanted to return to the conference fold. This decision, combined with a meltdown over the control of a shortwave radio station with other Historic Ministries (Steps to Life, Modern Manna, Bob Trefz, Heartland Institute and Les Balsigers Ministry). Ron tried to broker a deal to hold everything together. Ron also advocated returning to the Conference. I thought my friend and pastor had lost his mind. Pleasant Valley Layman's Chapel disbanded about the same time. Ron had another church 80 miles east of Pleasant Valley. And I was left with no where to go...so I go no where.

I read my bible and pray. I give to charitible causes. I come to places like BSDA for fellowship. I visit the Amazing facts website when I need to go to Sabbath School or Church. I watch It is Written on Trinity Broadcasting network. And before I moved to outer mongolia arkansas I watched KSBN Safe TV. I have DISH network and alas no Safe TV. My friend Ron Woolsey has a radio station that broadcasts 3abn radio. But that is too far from where I live to get reception. I've started watching HOPE on the internet when I can. I won't watch 3abn right now. Not until things settle down there and an honest accounting is made.

I attended an Episcopal church long enough to allow my three youngest daughters to pursue baptism. It's a safe church very luke warm and non radical. Episcopal church sermons are like puffed rice cakes. Not much substance. They can make other choices when they are older. But for now, living in the Bible belt, they can honestly say yes when someone tries that as a conversion technique.

Pastor Kohley is now employed by the Lake Union. Atleast that is where google placed him when I searched.

I am not sure where I am going from here

[Richard Sherwin]

Hey thanks for sharing, I like hearing other peoples stories of their struggles and victories. It helps up know each other better.

BTW, nice avatar

I attended a conference SDA church from 1987 - 1991 without being a baptised member

I was baptised by Pastor Kohley in late February/early March on 1991. This was a conference baptism.

The historic movement was splittling our church during 1991-1993

I fell in with the Historic group in 1992 (I didn't understand the difference between the two groups occupying one church) These folks believed that Jesuits killed Marshall Grosball. There was another man named Jim Arabito who authored some works about the Jesuit infilltration of the SDA church. He died and the same rumors went round about his death as well. (I was well and truly brainwashed at this point. I was terrified of jackbooted thugs and prison camps for believers and the mark of the beast....I was not serving a loving merciful god at this point in my life. Some among this group were saying the Church was Babylon and then there were Jan Marcusson's news letters)

I attended a Historic SDA Church--Pleasant Valley Layman's Chapel from the summer of 1992 to 1994. It was an 80 mile drive one way. The preaching was good and so were my fellow church members.

I was rebaptised by Ron Woolsey in October of 1992. I believe he obtained his ordination via Steps to Life. He has since reconciled with and is employed by the SDA Conference. He also dedicated my two oldest daughters. I hold him in the highest esteem to this day.

My twins were born in 1993. They were dedicated by Elder Peter Jackson. He now volunteers for 3abn.

Prophecy countdown imploded about 1995 ish. Pastor Osborne wanted to return to the conference fold. This decision, combined with a meltdown over the control of a shortwave radio station with other Historic Ministries (Steps to Life, Modern Manna, Bob Trefz, Heartland Institute and Les Balsigers Ministry). Ron tried to broker a deal to hold everything together. Ron also advocated returning to the Conference. I thought my friend and pastor had lost his mind. Pleasant Valley Layman's Chapel disbanded about the same time. Ron had another church 80 miles east of Pleasant Valley. And I was left with no where to go...so I go no where.

I read my bible and pray. I give to charitible causes. I come to places like BSDA for fellowship. I visit the Amazing facts website when I need to go to Sabbath School or Church. I watch It is Written on Trinity Broadcasting network. And before I moved to outer mongolia arkansas I watched KSBN Safe TV. I have DISH network and alas no Safe TV. My friend Ron Woolsey has a radio station that broadcasts 3abn radio. But that is too far from where I live to get reception. I've started watching HOPE on the internet when I can. I won't watch 3abn right now. Not until things settle down there and an honest accounting is made.

I attended an Episcopal church long enough to allow my three youngest daughters to pursue baptism. It's a safe church very luke warm and non radical. Episcopal church sermons are like puffed rice cakes. Not much substance. They can make other choices when they are older. But for now, living in the Bible belt, they can honestly say yes when someone tries that as a conversion technique.

Pastor Kohley is now employed by the Lake Union. Atleast that is where google placed him when I searched.

I am not sure where I am going from here

This post has been edited by Richard Sherwin: Sep 23 2007, 08:48 PM

[WillowRun]

Willow
I was aware the quote which troubled me, while appearing in your post, was not originally made by you. I never ever meant to imply differently. I’m sorry for not having distinguished more clearly between your words and those you quoted from the internet site you gave.

It is interesting that perhaps this very experience illustrates a point I was trying to make. We can all at times use words and labels, in our minds applying them to one situation, but others looking on apply them to a different context and cause hurt thereby - or fear of hurt. When those hurt thereby protest, sometimes there is little empathy for their position, or they are not heard, because the mind of the one making the offending statement is still focused elsewhere, or else the wider harm caused was actually the desired outcome. I pray I on my part have heard your appeal.

I was very interested to read your personal testimony and feel grieved that new members must so often be put through so much in their search to find peace and equilibrium in the church. I, too, have a story to tell. New members, old members or something else, the devil is there today to ensure that all those seeking to follow Christ are under relentless challenge.

I have sought to learn from history. It seems to me that if there are big problems in a particular local church, and if it is impossible or impractical to attend another, it might be necessary for a time to homechurch. But we should remain in sympathy and contact with the wider membership. What blessings we miss if we forget or depreciate the fact of God's marvellous leading in the history of this movement.

Jesus lives! God’s promises are still real. We must hold on. His blessings upon you.

Brick Step, I apologize for being short with you. I should have waited until I could write a more gentle reply.

Thank you for your suggestion of a home church. I fear that may be too organized for me at this time. I read my bible at home and teach my girls. We watch Hope Television via the internet and Amazing Facts Sabbath School and Church.

I have a handful of contacts from my church going days. We stay in touch. Some have returned to the conference churches. Others have not. Some of them who were older are now gone. I miss my dear friend Jim in particular. He always called my oldest his little Sunshine and treated her like a grand daughter. I also miss my friend, Elaine who was so busy trying to live every word written by EGW that she allowed cancer to eat her alive believing that modern medicine is poison. I helped take care of her in those last days. Her death caused a crisis of faith in little Sunshine that has not ever gone away. Little Sunshine is now twenty years old and has not attended church since she was 8. She prayed and got baptised and her dear friend still died.

I ask that everyone who reads my post to please pray for little Sunshine that she may someday find her way back to God. I pray that the price paid for my inability to understand that my daughter is lost forever.

Respectfully and sadly
Willow

[RBF]

I ask that everyone who reads my post to please pray for little Sunshine that she may someday find her way back to God. I pray that the price paid for my inability to understand that my daughter is lost forever.

Respectfully and sadly
Willow

I have prayed for Sunshine but, remember, One Greater than myself is praying for her. Jesus has her name written in the palms of His hands. Alas, no shepherd goes home without finding His sheep.

RBF