Where Is John Osborne?, Are his talents not appreciated? Options

[Brick Step]

Johann, I do not know where he is or how he is doing, but it has been my observation that some personalities are addicted to power and the spotlight. If they ever do recognize it and step down, then going back to that kind of "drug" would be like sending an alcoholic to be a taster in a winery. Not smart for them or for the winery.
shepherdswife

I agree. John Osborne is not for 3ABN, for his own sake, and everyone else's. That does not mean that in a different context he cannot go on to do a great ministry for the Lord.

[YogusBearus]

In the early 90's 3abn was presented to my group as a Historic Adventist undertaking. The Historic Adventists would do what the General Conference of SDA's had "failed" to do.

Johann, I do not know where he is or how he is doing, but it has been my observation that some personalities are addicted to power and the spotlight. If they ever do recognize it and step down, then going back to that kind of "drug" would be like sending an alcoholic to be a taster in a winery. Not smart for them or for the winery.
shepherdswife

Thanks to all for a fascinating discussion. Willow, you and your daughter are in my prayers. I am hopeful you can find a healthy group of Christians to worship with soon.

Having watched Mr. Osborne's divisive ministry first hand over several years, I was amazed at the thought of it being desirable for him to be involved in 3ABN at this time. Upon reflection I started to realize that there was a distinct possibility that the majority of faithful 3ABN viewers might welcome his inclusion.

I have two questions in this regard but will address only one at this time. Am I correct that the majority of 3ABN faithful supporters (those that send money) are by nature conservative if not outright "Historic" Adventists? If this is the case, is it due to any or all of the following?

• The music on 3ABN is fairly conservative in nature (gospel)?
• There is an emphasis on healthy living most specifically vegetarianism?
• Most if not all the speakers have very conservative or "Historic" backgrounds?

What do you think?

-bear

[Brick Step]

... Prophecy is never given to satisfy our curiosity about the future, but to tell us how to live now.

Accepting Ellen White's writings was not a test of fellowship for the Adventist Church during her lifetime. If we're going to be a sola scriptura church, it should be that way today.

Faithfulness to sola scriptura requires a certain attitude to the workings of Providence and the manifestation of spiritual gifts outside of Bible times.

I’m not up on the Greek here, and have not heard anyone else make this point, so I take the blame if I’m in error. John the Revelator often says, “I saw…” He was told to “write” the things that “he” “saw” (Rev 1:11).

“I saw seven golden lampstands…” (Rev 1:12).
”I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll…” (Rev 5:1).
“I saw three unclean spirits like frogs….” (Rev 16:13).

Why the departure from “I saw” in Revelation 11:19? Instead of “I saw” John uses the words “was seen.”

“Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of his covenant was seen in his temple. And there were lightnings, noises [“voices”, KJV], thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.” (Rev 11:19).

Do not the words “was seen” here imply that John in his day “saw” the ark of the covenant in the opened heavenly temple”, but also there were others who were to see this sight? Does not the overall context of this text imply that this “seeing” would be during the sounding of the seventh trumpet (Rev 11:15-19), which commenced to sound (Rev 10:7) during the sweet-in-the-mouth, bitter-in-the-belly experience around 1844, in fulfilment of the 2300 time prophecy of Daniel 8:14? The words in the second half of Revelation 11:19 link this text with the seventh plague. The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary applies this text to the antitypical Day of Atonement commencing 1844.

Since John the Revelator, I know of only one person on earth who has “seen” the heavenly ark of the covenant, and that was Ellen White, in her earliest visions. Then she states that God’s people by faith, at the time of the fulfilment of Daniel 8:14, followed Christ into the most holy place, and there they, too, by faith, “saw” the ark of the covenant in the opened temple in heaven. I believe Revelation 12:17 in context also finds a fulfilment in Ellen White and the commandment-keeping movement she worked so hard to guide and establish.

It seems to me to be entirely reasonable to interpret the first half of the prophecy of Revelation 11:19 as having a special fulfilment in Ellen White, and then in the movement she helped to establish. Therefore faithfulness to the sola scriptura position today makes the acceptance of Ellen White as God’s prophet to the endtimes a test of faith to God’s endtime people.

How many times has Providence led truth-seeking persons to read the book Desire of Ages or Great Controversy, and the result has been a finding of Jesus as their Saviour, and transformed lives? The living Christ of the Bible speaks through His Word, but also through gifts and providences in the here and now, some of which He even causes to be prophesied in a past age.

[Shepherdswife]

Having watched Mr. Osborne's divisive ministry first hand over several years, I was amazed at the thought of it being desirable for him to be involved in 3ABN at this time. Upon reflection I started to realize that there was a distinct possibility that the majority of faithful 3ABN viewers might welcome his inclusion.

I have two questions in this regard but will address only one at this time. Am I correct that the majority of 3ABN faithful supporters (those that send money) are by nature conservative if not outright "Historic" Adventists? If this is the case, is it due to any or all of the following?

• The music on 3ABN is fairly conservative in nature (gospel)?
• There is an emphasis on healthy living most specifically vegetarianism?
• Most if not all the speakers have very conservative or "Historic" backgrounds?

What do you think?

-bear

I am not sure about the supporters being "historic" (since we have mentioned already that there is a difference between Adventists who consider themselves to follow the historic traditions of the church, vs the ones who have "owned" the label and all it includes.) but I do know that the things you mentioned are a very real draw for the older, "the church is getting too liberal" crowd, who love the fact that the lifestyle issues they grew up with and which made them feel so different, are being made to look so attractive (in their eyes) on worldwide television.

My opinion, anyway...

shepherdswife

[Brick Step]

Ellen White’s vision here is arresting, in view of the Revelation 11:19 prophecy, “… the ark of his covenant was seen in his [opened] temple…”

"The Lord gave me the following view in 1847, while the brethren were assembled on the Sabbath, at Topsham, Maine.

"We felt an unusual spirit of prayer. And as we prayed the Holy Ghost fell upon us. We were very happy. Soon I was lost to earthly things and was wrapped in a vision of God's glory. I saw an angel flying swiftly to me. He quickly carried me from the earth to the Holy City. In the city I saw a temple, which I entered. I passed through a door before I came to the first veil. This veil was raised, and I passed into the holy place. Here I saw the altar of incense, the candlestick with seven lamps, and the table on which was the shewbread. After viewing the glory of the holy, Jesus raised the second veil and I passed into the holy of holies.

"In the holiest I saw an ark; on the top and sides of it was purest gold. On each end of the ark was a lovely cherub, with its wings spread out over it. Their faces were turned toward each other, and they looked downward. Between the angels was a golden censer. Above the ark, where the angels stood, was an exceeding bright glory, that appeared like a throne where God dwelt. Jesus stood by the ark, and as the saints' prayers came up to Him, the incense in the censer would smoke, and He would offer up their prayers with the smoke of the incense to His Father. In the ark was the golden pot of manna, Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of stone which folded together like a book. Jesus opened them, and I saw the ten commandments written on them with the finger of God. On one table were four, and on the other six. The four on the first table shone brighter than the other six. But the fourth, the Sabbath commandment, shone above them all; for the Sabbath was set apart to be kept in honor of God's holy name. The holy Sabbath looked glorious--a halo of glory was all around it. I saw that the Sabbath commandment was not nailed to the cross. ….” Early Writings, pp. 32-33.

Later in Early Writings we read that God’s endtime people are those who follow Jesus by faith into the most holy place in heaven.

“Many who embraced the third message had not had an experience in the two former messages. Satan understood this, and his evil eye was upon them to overthrow them; but the third angel was pointing them to the most holy place, and those who had had an experience in the past messages were pointing them the way to the heavenly sanctuary. Many saw the perfect chain of truth in the angels' messages, and gladly received them in their order, and followed Jesus by faith into the heavenly sanctuary. These messages were represented to me as an anchor to the people of God. Those who understand and receive them will be kept from being swept away by the many delusions of Satan.” Early Writings, p. 256.

This post has been edited by Brick Step: Sep 25 2007, 08:16 PM

[beartrap]

I have two questions in this regard but will address only one at this time. Am I correct that the majority of 3ABN faithful supporters (those that send money) are by nature conservative if not outright "Historic" Adventists? If this is the case, is it due to any or all of the following?

• The music on 3ABN is fairly conservative in nature (gospel)?
• There is an emphasis on healthy living most specifically vegetarianism?
• Most if not all the speakers have very conservative or "Historic" backgrounds?

What do you think?

-bear

I believe that the vegetarianism, the very stong emphasis on OSI member groups, and to a lesser degree the music play a part in it, but it is my opinion that the biggest factor of them all is that 3ABN places its major emphasis on "endtime events" and immediate cataclysmic fulfillment of traditional Adventist interpretations of Daniel and Revelation. This is the single biggest turn-on that I know of to the "historic" Adventists and the donor base.

This post has been edited by beartrap: Sep 25 2007, 09:55 PM

[WillowRun]

Greetings and Salutations Friends--

I wanted to say thank you to every person who responded so kindly to my testimony. It was not my intention to start a battle over Conference vs. Historic flavors of Adventism. My apologies to those who are upset.

I will try to respond to individual posts as I have time. But before I forget I do want to thank Watchbird for the link to the Collegedale SDA church. Pastor Nixon's sermons are wonderful!

Each of you will be in my prayers!

Respectfully,

Willow

[SoulEspresso]

Do not the words “was seen” here imply that John in his day “saw” the ark of the covenant in the opened heavenly temple”, but also there were others who were to see this sight?

I believe Revelation 12:17 in context also finds a fulfilment in Ellen White and the commandment-keeping movement she worked so hard to guide and establish.

It seems to me to be entirely reasonable to interpret the first half of the prophecy of Revelation 11:19 as having a special fulfilment in Ellen White, and then in the movement she helped to establish. Therefore faithfulness to the sola scriptura position today makes the acceptance of Ellen White as God’s prophet to the endtimes a test of faith to God’s endtime people.

It seems to me to be a great leap from one passive verb in a single verse of Revelation to saying that accepting Ellen White is required to be truly sola scriptura ... ... at least based on Bible study alone.

This post has been edited by SoulEspresso: Sep 25 2007, 11:33 PM

[SoulEspresso]

What does Ellen say about the mark of the beast in the book “Great Controversy”. The most informative paragraphs come from one chapter and I quote them here below.

The beast with two horns "causeth [commands] all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads; and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name." [REV. 13:16, 17] The third angel's warning is, "If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God." "The beast" mentioned in this message, whose worship is enforced by the two-horned beast, is the first, or leopard-like beast of Revelation 13,--the papacy. The "image to the beast" represents that form of apostate Protestantism which will be developed when the Protestant churches shall seek the aid of the civil power for the enforcement of their dogmas. The "mark of the beast" still remains to be defined. {GC88 445.2}

As the sign of the authority of the Catholic Church, papist writers cite, "the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of . . . because by keeping Sunday strictly they acknowledge the church's power to ordain feasts, and to command them under sin." ["ABRIDGMENT OF CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE."] What then is the change of the Sabbath, but the sign or mark of the authority of the Romish Church--"the mark of the beast"? {GC88 448.2}

But Christians of past generations observed the Sunday, supposing that in so doing they were keeping the Bible Sabbath, and there are now true Christians in every church, not excepting the Roman Catholic communion, who honestly believe that Sunday is the Sabbath of divine appointment. God accepts their sincerity of purpose and their integrity before him. But when Sunday observance shall be enforced by law, and the world shall be enlightened concerning the obligation of the true Sabbath, then whoever shall transgress the command of God, to obey a precept which has no higher authority than that of Rome, will thereby honor popery above God. He is paying homage to Rome, and to the power which enforces the institution ordained by Rome. He is worshipping the beast and his image. As men then reject the institution which God has declared to be the sign of his authority, and honor in its stead that which Rome has chosen as the token of her supremacy, they will thereby accept the sign of allegiance to Rome--"the mark of the beast." And it is not until the issue is thus plainly set before the people, and they are brought to choose between the commandments of God and the commandments of men, that those who continue in transgression will receive "the mark of the beast." {GC88 449.1}

In the issue of the contest, all Christendom will be divided into two great classes,--those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and those who worship the beast and his image and receive his mark. Although church and State will unite their power to compel "all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond," to receive "the mark of the beast," [REV. 13:16.] yet the people of God will not receive it. The prophet of Patmos beholds "them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God," and singing the song of Moses and the Lamb. [REV. 15: 2, 3.] {GC88 450.1}

The language here does not say, Sunday is definitely the mark of the beast. Instead, EGW presents a scenario in which the mark of the beast could be interpreted that way. See the blue bolding; "when this, then that." Remember at the time this was written, a National Sunday Law was a real legislative possibility. If it had passed, Sunday observance would have become the mark of the beast. Note the red bolding above ... the mark of the beast has yet to be defined. Would she write that if it was already cut-and-dried?

All the stuff you still hear from our evangelists notwithstanding, not many Protestants today will tell you Sunday is God's chosen day of worship. They're far more likely to point you to texts that suggest no day is important.

I'm not at all saying Sunday won't be the mark of the beast. Circumstances change; prophecy often depends on the conditions and decisions of human beings; and in the Bible, I can't imagine anyone writing a biography of Jesus in advance based on Old Testament prophecy. (Remember, the Jews in Jesus' time thought they knew how the Messiah would arrive!)

Prophecies are almost always recognized after they are fulfilled. (The only reason I say "almost" is that I don't want to be an absolutist.) I think it's pretty clear based on Revelation alone (IOW even apart from this last paragraph Thomas posted) that the Mark of the Beast will be a Ten Commandments or law thingy, but the biggest issue in the book of Revelation is true worship versus false, so we have to be aware that the mark of the beast may be some other aspect we're not currently prepared for.

This post has been edited by SoulEspresso: Sep 25 2007, 11:29 PM

[Shepherdswife]

I believe that the vegetarianism, the very stong emphasis on OSI member groups, and to a lesser degree the music play a part in it, but it is my opinion that the biggest factor of them all is that 3ABN places its major emphasis on "endtime events" and immediate cataclysmic fulfillment of traditional Adventist interpretations of Daniel and Revelation. This is the single biggest turn-on that I know of to the "historic" Adventists and the donor base.

Yes beartrap, you have a point. There is another segment as well...

I am acquainted with many small, planted in the early 1900's churches. They tend to have older members who believe that "the area around here is very hard to work" and that "no one around here is interested in the truth". When they watch 3abn and see the reports of huge campaigns where many are baptized, and wonderful things being reported all over the world, they attach to 3ABN as "Adventism the way it should be done" or "Adventism the way it would be if people around here were interested", or even proof that SDA beliefs are right, almost living vicariously through it. They can feel like they are "doing their part" even if nothing is happening in their area.

Also it gives some a place to avoid having to change to get along at church when they fight with everyone. We had one who quit coming to church and considered 3ABN to be their church and DS their pastor--it avoided all those people they didn't get along with anyway. They actually told us how they would call 3ABN and tell them what a terrible pastor their local church had. Made me wonder if the prayer/help lines at 3ABN get regular customers who have replaced real people with that 800 number, and call often just to let off steam or complain. (I assume they have a toll-free line. Have never watched to find out.) Not that we minded not getting calls from that person--it was actually a relief... :-)

When your pastor is teaching things that you don't understand/believe (like the priesthood of all believers and that the pastor is not there to be the primary spiritual caregiver to all the members individually--gasp!) it is comforting to click the button and hear the "undiluted" truth that you remembered from way back...and to feel like they are ministering to just you and that you are important to them--they need you.

I know, there are others who donate small or large sums for other reasons, but the small regular donor from backwoods USA often fits into these 5 or 6 categories, from what I have observed.

shepherdswife

[YogusBearus]

I believe that the vegetarianism, the very stong emphasis on OSI member groups, and to a lesser degree the music play a part in it, but it is my opinion that the biggest factor of them all is that 3ABN places its major emphasis on "endtime events" and immediate cataclysmic fulfillment of traditional Adventist interpretations of Daniel and Revelation. This is the single biggest turn-on that I know of to the "historic" Adventists and the donor base.

Thanks beartrap. I suspected that was the case but didn’t have first hand observation to back it up.

Yes beartrap, you have a point. There is another segment as well...

I am acquainted with many small, planted in the early 1900's churches. They tend to have older members who believe that "the area around here is very hard to work" and that "no one around here is interested in the truth". When they watch 3abn and see the reports of huge campaigns where many are baptized, and wonderful things being reported all over the world, they attach to 3ABN as "Adventism the way it should be done" or "Adventism the way it would be if people around here were interested", or even proof that SDA beliefs are right, almost living vicariously through it. They can feel like they are "doing their part" even if nothing is happening in their area.

Also it gives some a place to avoid having to change to get along at church when they fight with everyone. We had one who quit coming to church and considered 3ABN to be their church and DS their pastor--it avoided all those people they didn't get along with anyway. They actually told us how they would call 3ABN and tell them what a terrible pastor their local church had. Made me wonder if the prayer/help lines at 3ABN get regular customers who have replaced real people with that 800 number, and call often just to let off steam or complain. (I assume they have a toll-free line. Have never watched to find out.) Not that we minded not getting calls from that person--it was actually a relief... :-)

When your pastor is teaching things that you don't understand/believe (like the priesthood of all believers and that the pastor is not there to be the primary spiritual caregiver to all the members individually--gasp!) it is comforting to click the button and hear the "undiluted" truth that you remembered from way back...and to feel like they are ministering to just you and that you are important to them--they need you.

I know, there are others who donate small or large sums for other reasons, but the small regular donor from backwoods USA often fits into these 5 or 6 categories, from what I have observed.

shepherdswife

Excellent first hand observations Shepherswife. I’ve often suspected that the infatuation with 3ABN is that somehow donors feel comforted that they have done their part in witnessing and don’t have to be involved with the messy one on one sharing. I think we saw the same phenomenon with the "Net" series.


Your point about Adventists that are viewing 3ABN as their “church” raises all sorts of questions. If 3ABN changed their charter to state that they were now a church (the name possibilities are endless), would you expect a sizable portion of the loyal viewers to join this new church? Is the GC already concerned about this possiblility?


-bear

[Brick Step]

It seems to me to be a great leap from one passive verb in a single verse of Revelation to saying that accepting Ellen White is required to be truly sola scriptura ... ... at least based on Bible study alone.

"Test of faith" can also mean "challenge to personal faith", and maybe I should have stopped short with that meaning.

But don't we all accept that it is never one little thing, but the accumulation of a lot of little things that go together to form major doctrines of the Bible? So it is important to note every little thing related to that doctrine. From the beginning, every major time prophecy in the Bible begins and ends with the appearance and witness of a prophet, the prophet coming at the close of the time prophecy, speaking to that time prophecy, and calling a "remnant" to obedience to all associated with that time prophecy. I refer also to:

The 3abn Massachusetts Lawsuit Poll
http://www.blacksda.com/forums/index.php?s...mp;#entry203425 Post #158

I'm sure Ellen White would never have claimed that the subject matter of her early (and later) visions made her a fulfillment associated with the prophecies of Revelation 11:19 to 15:4. But we can look back, and are accountable for the knowledge that comes with hindsight.

How did I get into this subject here? I came to this site on BSDA to register concern for Linda Shelton and for the integrity of 3ABN.

This post has been edited by Brick Step: Sep 26 2007, 06:20 PM

[Shepherdswife]

Your point about Adventists that are viewing 3ABN as their “church” raises all sorts of questions. If 3ABN changed their charter to state that they were now a church (the name possibilities are endless), would you expect a sizable portion of the loyal viewers to join this new church? Is the GC already concerned about this possiblility?
-bear

Just my opinion: there might be a few, but I don't think a sizeable portion of the SDA members I was describing in my last post would join. Or even a very large portion. They would probably have a larger percentage of the members who have "imprinted" on them because 3ABN had a part in their conversion to Adventism. Or so it seems to me...

shepherdswife

[Brick Step]

Thanks beartrap. I suspected that was the case but didn’t have first hand observation to back it up.





Excellent first hand observations Shepherswife. I’ve often suspected that the infatuation with 3ABN is that somehow donors feel comforted that they have done their part in witnessing and don’t have to be involved with the messy one on one sharing. I think we saw the same phenomenon with the "Net" series.
Your point about Adventists that are viewing 3ABN as their “church” raises all sorts of questions. If 3ABN changed their charter to state that they were now a church (the name possibilities are endless), would you expect a sizable portion of the loyal viewers to join this new church? Is the GC already concerned about this possiblility?


-bear

"... infatuation with 3ABN..."? Could it be that despite apparent evidence for behind-the-scenes concerns, the Holy Spirit still leads people to 3ABN's on-the-screen witness, using it to lead souls to salvation, and stablish them in the faith? It is this concern, and the fact that I have never been to 3ABN or personally met any of its workers over there, that continually holds be back from going too far in calling for repentance at 3ABN. I do not wish to be found working to shackle God - a not very wise endeavour for any mere fallible mortal to take up. But we are praying daily for God's leading.

We still watch 3ABN and are blessed thereby. We hop over to check out LLBN and Hope, too, and we're not about to join any new church.

I do not think 3ABN's current on-the-screen witness with all its many different speakers and evangelists should be compared with the final witness of John Osborne's Prophecy Countdown ministry.

[SoulEspresso]

I am acquainted with many small, planted in the early 1900's churches. They tend to have older members who believe that "the area around here is very hard to work" and that "no one around here is interested in the truth". When they watch 3abn and see the reports of huge campaigns where many are baptized, and wonderful things being reported all over the world, they attach to 3ABN as "Adventism the way it should be done" or "Adventism the way it would be if people around here were interested", or even proof that SDA beliefs are right, almost living vicariously through it. They can feel like they are "doing their part" even if nothing is happening in their area.

Also it gives some a place to avoid having to change to get along at church when they fight with everyone. We had one who quit coming to church and considered 3ABN to be their church and DS their pastor--it avoided all those people they didn't get along with anyway. They actually told us how they would call 3ABN and tell them what a terrible pastor their local church had. Made me wonder if the prayer/help lines at 3ABN get regular customers who have replaced real people with that 800 number, and call often just to let off steam or complain. (I assume they have a toll-free line. Have never watched to find out.) Not that we minded not getting calls from that person--it was actually a relief... :-)

When your pastor is teaching things that you don't understand/believe (like the priesthood of all believers and that the pastor is not there to be the primary spiritual caregiver to all the members individually--gasp!) it is comforting to click the button and hear the "undiluted" truth that you remembered from way back...and to feel like they are ministering to just you and that you are important to them--they need you.

I want to cry with happy agreement ... someone else gets it ...