Rhema: The Basic Belief Of The "word Of Faith Movement"..., How does it relate to Adventism? Options

[SoulEspresso]

Yes, Mr. J, PB, those were both passages I had in mind but couldn't get to them in electronic form when I posted. EGW does write clearly on the subject, and what she has to say goes right along with both how the Bible describes itself as divine messages in human words, and what we actually find in the Bible humanly speaking.

The exception is that she (EGW) calls the Bible God's Word. Of course, I have, myself, on many occasions. It's not my preference for referring to the Scriptures anymore, but that's for clarity's sake, because the Bible doesn't typically refer to itself with those words, while it does call Jesus the Word.

My concern, particularly in the context of this discussion, is this: The Bible is a divine book, but that doesn't mean it has inherent supernatural power. The power comes from God to those who believe, but at His discretion and on His terms.

This post has been edited by SoulEspresso: Sep 27 2007, 04:40 AM

[LaurenceD]

One of the problems that the pure spiritualist runs into, when placing such high importance on the written bliblical word, is which bible? For example, the RSV has at least 15 entire verses missing from the NT and a couple dozen ½ verses. Other versions and translations don't say it just right either, so you see some using their favorite bible...which help[s to picture their world view of life...their point of reference in life. More specifically, you wouldn't want to quote from the RSV, or NRSV, if you were trying to prove that the bible (1Jn 5) does indeed say "these three are one" in supporting their view of the Trinity. It's not there--and with good cause--since it can't be found in the oldest and most reliable manuscripts.

[summertime]

One of the problems that the pure spiritualist runs into, when placing such high importance on the written bliblical word, is which bible? For example, the RSV has at least 15 entire verses missing from the NT and a couple dozen ½ verses. Other versions and translations don't say it just right either, so you see some using their favorite bible...which help[s to picture their world view of life...their point of reference in life. More specifically, you wouldn't want to quote from the RSV, or NRSV, if you were trying to prove that the bible (1Jn 5) does indeed say "these three are one" in supporting their view of the Trinity. It's not there--and with good cause--since it can't be found in the oldest and most reliable manuscripts.

How do we have the confidence that the King James version is without omissions or misinterpretations? Remember how Jesus spoke to the theif on the cross?--The KJV clearly states that Jesus said to him, "I say unto you, today you will be with Me in paradise." The way I look at it is that God would not allow the Bible to be misunderstood by men's translations. We have accepted the NIV and others, certainly not the Living Bible, and we know that the Clear Word is paraphrased, but I do enjoy reading it---sometime it clears things up for me. Bible believing Baptists in this part of the world will accept only the KJV.

[LaurenceD]

A little more info on Quinn's book (the 2003 copyrighted version I have)...

Quinn says she came into our church in 2002 from watching 3abn and was invited to become part of compound's organization in 2003--the year she wrote this version of Exalting His Word. In the book (published by Three Angel's Broadcasting Network, Inc.) she refers to 3abn several times. The book was proofread by Pat Mudgett, the first organizer of her earlier ministry--Word Warrior Squadron (see last chaper--under subtitle A Cup of Water).

The pages in this 2003 book are numbered quite differently than the 2006 version, so I won't give the page, only the chapter and subheading.

Throughout the book the reader will see special emphasis on Quinn's claim that the Lord was leading in all this. Case in point...she was somehow able to pull it off in only a couple of weeks... "I marveled at how He ordered my steps and enabled me to complete this book in less than three weeks."

Re the reference to spontaneous outbursts, I was breifly summarizing what she was saying because I didn't feel like writing out the whole page the other night. Under Begin with Prayer, step 2 of the Instructions (first page of the appendix) she says, "After some rehersal, some Christians realize a spontaneous burst of praise arises from their heart. Most have mentioned a new level of intimacy they experience in their prayer time through this process."

BTW, I don't see the Instructions listed under Contents...in the online version of Contents. Is it possible this page has been removed from the newer 2006 version? I have carefully noted other areas in the newer version that have been edited...a word missing or added here and there...so changes are evident.

When I get time, I'll quote some of the more controversial areas of this book. The chapters I have scribbled notes on most are chapters 7 and 8...having to do with Rhema. There are places where she makes it clear what this new process is all about.

[LaurenceD]

How do we have the confidence that the King James version is without omissions or misinterpretations? Remember how Jesus spoke to the theif on the cross?--The KJV clearly states that Jesus said to him, "I say unto you, today you will be with Me in paradise." The way I look at it is that God would not allow the Bible to be misunderstood by men's translations. We have accepted the NIV and others, certainly not the Living Bible, and we know that the Clear Word is paraphrased, but I do enjoy reading it---sometime it clears things up for me. Bible believing Baptists in this part of the world will accept only the KJV.

Some scholars view the Clear Word as a bible commentary, not a paraphrase, because of all the extrabiblical additions he puts in there. He actually goes way over the top...as good as his intentions may be. Many things Blanco is trying to get across and clear up are simply not found in the oldest and most reliable manuscripts. For example, he'll turn a short KJV verse of about 20 words into a long paragraph of about 100 words (or more) mixing in interpretations you'd only find in EGW's writings, or our SDA Commentaries.

[awesumtenor]

For example, he'll turn a short KJV verse of about 20 words into a long paragraph of about 100 words (or more) mixing in interpretations you'd only find in EGW's writings, or our SDA Commentaries.

Jack Blanco stated in the preface when the Clear Word came out ( back when it was marketed as The Clear Word Bible ) that it was the result of his personal study and it contained scripture, EGW and his on observations which may or may not be corroborated by either scripture and/or EGW... and as such it was not appropriate for use as a primary "bible" in the pulpit or in teaching... yet I have seen it used time and again in that manner...

But that is another topic for another time...

In His service,
Mr. J

[LaurenceD]

Yes, another topic for another time. But, I did ask the scholars at the GC (Biblical Research Institute) their views on the Clear Word. Their response? The "serious student" would probably want to use another version. :smile:

[LaurenceD]

BTW, I just read my copy of the 1994 edition of The Clear Word Bible. He does say he was influenced to modify certain parts of scripture due to "archaeological evidence" and according to certain "commentaries." But, he also credits scholars such as (in Revelation) Calvin and Luther, but no mention of EGW that I can see. Over and over he calls his bible a "paraphrase." That's simply not true. To exapand the original content of a verse with extrabiblical content using what he calls "interpretive freedom" would make his book not a paraphrase of the bible, but a bible-commentary. He also explains he removed the apparent contraditions from the gospels..explaining he had to "elaborate on certain points and scenes."

This post has been edited by LaurenceD: Sep 27 2007, 10:10 AM

[watchbird]

BTW, I just read my copy of the 1994 edition of The Clear Word Bible. He does say he was influenced to modify certain parts of scripture due to "archaeological evidence" and according to certain "commentaries." But, he also credits scholars such as (in Revelation) Calvin and Luther, but no mention of EGW that I can see. Over and over he calls his bible a "paraphrase." That's simply not true. To exapand the original content of a verse with extrabiblical content using what he calls "interpretive freedom" would make his book not a paraphrase of the bible, but a bible-commentary. He also explains he removed the apparent contraditions from the gospels..explaining he had to "elaborate on certain points and scenes."

You may be interested to know that George Reid, head of BRI at the time of publication, labored with Jack and attempted to dissuade him from expanding his initial publication of the New Testament to include the Old as well. George's descriptor of the book said, "It isn't a commentary. It isn't a paraphrase." George generally called it "an approximation of scripture".

But as has been said... another topic for another time....

[PeacefulBe]

A little more info on Quinn's book (the 2003 copyrighted version I have)...

Quinn says she came into our church in 2002 from watching 3abn and was invited to become part of compound's organization in 2003--the year she wrote this version of Exalting His Word. In the book (published by Three Angel's Broadcasting Network, Inc.) she refers to 3abn several times. The book was proofread by Pat Mudgett, the first organizer of her earlier ministry--Word Warrior Squadron (see last chaper--under subtitle A Cup of Water).

The pages in this 2003 book are numbered quite differently than the 2006 version, so I won't give the page, only the chapter and subheading.

Throughout the book the reader will see special emphasis on Quinn's claim that the Lord was leading in all this. Case in point...she was somehow able to pull it off in only a couple of weeks... "I marveled at how He ordered my steps and enabled me to complete this book in less than three weeks."

Re the reference to spontaneous outbursts, I was breifly summarizing what she was saying because I didn't feel like writing out the whole page the other night. Under Begin with Prayer, step 2 of the Instructions (first page of the appendix) she says, "After some rehersal, some Christians realize a spontaneous burst of praise arises from their heart. Most have mentioned a new level of intimacy they experience in their prayer time through this process."

BTW, I don't see the Instructions listed under Contents...in the online version of Contents. Is it possible this page has been removed from the newer 2006 version? I have carefully noted other areas in the newer version that have been edited...a word missing or added here and there...so changes are evident.

When I get time, I'll quote some of the more controversial areas of this book. The chapters I have scribbled notes on most are chapters 7 and 8...having to do with Rhema. There are places where she makes it clear what this new process is all about.

Laurence,
The 2006 version still has the "Instructions". It's in the Appendix on page 125. The Table of Contents calls it Life Affirmations From Scripture, but on page 126, the title says: "Instructions: Life Affirmations From Scripture" and then has 7 of them.

I challenge you to set asisde time each day for the next montha ns dpeak life affirmation from Scripture aloud. No matter how well you know the Scriptures - or how long your/ve been serving the Lord - I believe you'll find you are tapping into a spiritual power source like none other you have known before.
Here are some suggestions that I've found helpful:

1. Devote thirty minutes each day to this proactice of meditating on God's Word. I've learned my days go much smoother when I dedicate ti me early in the morning. If you can't squeeze thirty minutes into your schedule in a single time slot, try dividing this practice into two fifteen-minute segments - or three ten-minute exercises.

1. Begin with prayer. Ask God to sanctify you by His Word (see John 17:17). Ask H im to teach you His will. Ask to be filled with His Spirit and for the Holy Spirit to be your teacher. I incorporate the speaking of affirmations into my regular prayer time. This whole practice is a process of prayer. After some rehearsal, many Christians realize a spontaneous burst of praise arises in their hearts. Most hae mentioned a new level of intimacy they experience in their prayer time through this process.

3. Speak the affirmation and supporting Scriptures aloud. As you speak the affirmation (the words within the box), you're returning God's Word to Him. When I speak the supporting Scriptures aloud, I sense I'm hearing the voice of God. Scripture is HIs Word.

4. Repeat the affirmation after saying the Scriptures. Change the wording, if necessary, to offer direct thanksgiving to God.

5. Conclude with prayer and praise. Thank God for watching over His Word to perform it. Thank Him for making known "the end from the beginning." Most of all, thank HIm that He calls things that are not as though they already were.

6. Be consistent. If y ou're like me, you may feel a little uneasy about speaking some of these promises in the affirmation form at first. In the beginning, I felt like a hypocrite when I heard my living voice say these things; I knew what I was speaking didn't match my experience. I was speaking things that were not yet evident to my physical senses as though they already existed. That's exactly what God does; He counts them accomplished. Praise the Lord, we can accept His testimony about us as being s omething He will work in us, causing us to be all that He has called us to be.

7. Repeat. When you've completed this entire segment, simply strt over again. Each time you repeat an affirmation, it becomes more alive in you. God's Word cannot be exhausted.

Note: All bold type in these texts is emphasis supplied by the author.

[watchbird]

Laurence,
The 2006 version still has the "Instructions". It's in the Appendix on page 125. The Table of Contents calls it Life Affirmations From Scripture, but on page 126, the title says: "Instructions: Life Affirmations From Scripture" and then has 7 of them.

Quoted by PB from the Quinn book.....

I challenge you to set asisde time each day for the next montha ns dpeak life affirmation from Scripture aloud. No matter how well you know the Scriptures - or how long your/ve been serving the Lord - I believe you'll find you are tapping into a spiritual power source like none other you have known before.

Here are some suggestions that I've found helpful:

1. Devote thirty minutes each day to this proactice of meditating on God's Word. I've learned my days go much smoother when I dedicate ti me early in the morning. If you can't squeeze thirty minutes into your schedule in a single time slot, try dividing this practice into two fifteen-minute segments - or three ten-minute exercises.

1. Begin with prayer. Ask God to sanctify you by His Word (see John 17:17). Ask H im to teach you His will. Ask to be filled with His Spirit and for the Holy Spirit to be your teacher. I incorporate the speaking of affirmations into my regular prayer time. This whole practice is a process of prayer. After some rehearsal, many Christians realize a spontaneous burst of praise arises in their hearts. Most hae mentioned a new level of intimacy they experience in their prayer time through this process.

3. Speak the affirmation and supporting Scriptures aloud. As you speak the affirmation (the words within the box), you're returning God's Word to Him. When I speak the supporting Scriptures aloud, I sense I'm hearing the voice of God. Scripture is HIs Word.

4. Repeat the affirmation after saying the Scriptures. Change the wording, if necessary, to offer direct thanksgiving to God.

5. Conclude with prayer and praise. Thank God for watching over His Word to perform it. Thank Him for making known "the end from the beginning." Most of all, thank HIm that He calls things that are not as though they already were.

6. Be consistent. If y ou're like me, you may feel a little uneasy about speaking some of these promises in the affirmation form at first. In the beginning, I felt like a hypocrite when I heard my living voice say these things; I knew what I was speaking didn't match my experience. I was speaking things that were not yet evident to my physical senses as though they already existed. That's exactly what God does; He counts them accomplished. Praise the Lord, we can accept His testimony about us as being s omething He will work in us, causing us to be all that He has called us to be.

7. Repeat. When you've completed this entire segment, simply strt over again. Each time you repeat an affirmation, it becomes more alive in you. God's Word cannot be exhausted.

(Sorry, the bold did not survive the "copy/paste" function.)

I think these are very interesting... particularly #6.

"I knew what I was speaking didn't match my experience"..... can anyone recall a three letter word that is the descriptor of words that do not accurately reflect reality (my experience)?

And whatever happened to such things as "facing reality" ... or "owning the problem" as the first step towards accomplishing change in our lives?

And #5....

"Thank God for watching over His Word to perform it." Let's see. I have heard of His word instructing, guiding, comforting, encouraging.... but where oh where does the idea that it is the "word" itself which "performs"... while we just stand back and affirm things which "do not match our experience"?

Thanks for the quotes, PB and Lawrence. The picture is beginning to take shape.

[LaurenceD]

Yes, thanks for taking the time to type those out, Peaceful...

watchbird, here's a few more pieces of the puzzle...(Quinn calls this a process of turning Logos into Rhema)

Ch. 7

"I think of the next chapter (Benefits of Rhema) as the crowning jewel of this entire study.
"we plant His LOGOS Word in our hearts and it springs to life as a practical RHEMA Word to us."
"you'll see the exciting advantages of talking God's LOGOS Word and making it our RHEMA utterance."
"we partake of His divine nature. This all begins by the power of the tongue"
"You can take His logos Scripture from the Bible and apply it as a rhema affirmation."
"The power of life and death is in your tongue."
"His mighty rhema Word of power will sustain and uphold you.

Ch. 8

"As we speak his Word with our living voice, He renews our mind."
"Rhema affirmations are the most efficient connection. They transfer His mighty energy to us and we're converted to His way of thinking."
"Before you enter this Kingdom truth, you have to see it."
"Affirming Scriptures isn't the mechanical repitition of a text...As we absorb the Word into our hearts and return it to Him with our living voice, He empowers us to do all that He requires of us."
"I've concluded that abiding in the Word of God is the way we abide in Christ."
"God's thoughts are becoming my thoughts. His desires are becoming my desires."
"Jesus said if we abid in Him and His rhema Word abides in us, we can ask and it will be done for us.."
"The Power of 'I Am.' I am who God says I am."
"If we declare something that is not scriptural--for example, 'I am so stupid' --we are, in a sense, taking the Lord's name in vain."

Appendix (Affirmation Samples)
"I am anointed by the holy one." (I wonder if this has been DS's Rhema/Affirmation)
"He has given me the authority and eternal power of His Word...His Word is a two edged sword--the first edge struck when He spoke it, the second edge strikes when I speak it." (meaning returning it to him)
"I have been given the mind of Christ."
"I am the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus."

[PeacefulBe]

"we partake of His divine nature. This all begins by the power of the tongue"
"You can take His logos Scripture from the Bible and apply it as a rhema affirmation."
"The power of life and death is in your tongue.""His mighty rhema Word of power will sustain and uphold you.

Hmmmm...

[LaurenceD]

Here's some EGW quotes to contrast with what Quinn is saying. Notice the distinction between biblical words and Christ the Word. Someone show me where Quinn makes this distinction. To me, it reads as though she's saying one becomes the other in us through verbal utterances.

"We must not think that the reading of the word can accomplish that which only He whom the word reveals, who stands beside the word, can accomplish..." 4RH 339

Finite man is united with the infinite God. When thus united, the words of Christ abide in us, and we are not actuated by the spasmodic feeling (spontaneous burst?), but by a living abiding principle." -SD 291

"Take no man's explanation of scripture, whatever his position, but go to the Bble and search the scriptures for yourself." -TM 155

"I Am means an eternal presence. the past the present, and the future are alike with God." -KH 12

"When united to Christ, soul is joined to soul." 5T 591

"Come into actual personal contact with Christ, that you may exert an influence that is uplifting and reviving." 6RH 33

"There are many who are too exalted in their own opinion to receive this mystery." -4RH 68-9

This post has been edited by LaurenceD: Sep 27 2007, 03:07 PM

[watchbird]

Here's some EGW quotes to contrast with what Quinn is saying. Notice the distinction between biblical words and Christ the Word. Someone show me where Quinn makes this distinction. To me, it reads as though she's saying one becomes the other in us through verbal utterances.

"We must not think that the reading of the word can accomplish that which only He whom the word reveals, who stands beside the word, can accomplish..." 4RH 339

Finite man is united with the infinite God. When thus united, the words of Christ abide in us, and we are not actuated by the spasmodic feeling (spontaneous burst?), but by a living abiding principle." -SD 291

"Take no man's explanation of scripture, whatever his position, but go to the Bble and search the scriptures for yourself." -TM 155

"I Am means an eternal presence. the past the present, and the future are alike with God." -KH 12

"When united to Christ, soul is joined to soul." 5T 591

"Come into actual personal contact with Christ, that you may exert an influence that is uplifting and reviving." 6RH 33

"There are many who are too exalted in their own opinion to receive this mystery." -4RH 68-9

Laurence, it's the presuppositions and world view that make most of the difference. If one reads scripture... or Ellen White... with what I will call a "normal" Christian view of reality... where words are ideas and information and we take that intellectually and put into practice in our own lives.... then we will do just that... realizing that it is God who gives us the understanding and the capabilites and that He is working right along side of us in a loving relationship.

If one reads scripture... or Ellen White... with a mystical view of reality... where words have power in and of themselves... and our part is to repeat the words and allow the words themselves to accomplish a magical work of change in us... or even to empower us so we ourselves have the "power" to weild.... then we will read the same texts or passages and get vastly different meanings from them.

This is why I have mentioned from the beginning of this that it was necessary for us to know and understand the differences in the world veiws before we could expect to see the differences in what is being said.