Rhema: The Basic Belief Of The "word Of Faith Movement"..., How does it relate to Adventism? Options

[Ian]

Sorry. I kept getting a error page, and somehow my post got here twice?

This post has been edited by Ian: Sep 26 2007, 10:14 AM

[lurker]

"But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking." Matthew 6:7

Seems like the "Rhema" is used by some like an incantation or like a spell with much repetition.

[Ian]

This is why I posted earlier that the Bible contains and describes God's Word. The Bible itself is not and should not be equated with God's word. There are only two texts in the whole thing that even hint at it, and even then those statements fall well within the possibility of this premise.

The danger of calling the Bible God's Word is exactly this problem. Jesus is the Living Word. All of God's declarations find reality in Him. But He can't be carried around in a leather cover. That's bibliolatry, and I worry about it based on the subtitle of Quinn's book.

SE,

No one is suggesting Jesus is the bible, or that a book be worshipped, a book is a thing. His word is exalted just as He is because it is HIS Word, and comes from HIM. (Ellen White said that also, for any who want to look up exalted and exalt in her writings.)

Jesus is THE WORD made flesh, the perfect and infallible revelation of God's will, purpose and character.

The bible does not just contain God's word IT IS God's Word. The bible is the inspired and written Word of God, and also the perfect and infallible revelation of God's purpose, will and character.

Two different ways which God reveals himself to mankind, but both declaring the same exact truth, sent straight from him.

You may certainly state your opinion and believe as you wish that the bible is Not God's word,and that it is dangerous to believe that, but as this is a Seventh-Day Adventist forum...

I think it is important to note that our very first fundamental belief does identify the bible as the Inspired and Written word of God. And I ask you to respect that Adventists do believe the bible is the Word of God, and not try to bring in arguments against that in this topic.


The Seventh-Day adventist faith is based on the premise that the Scriptures are God's Word to mankind. I do not think it is helpful as we try to study this out from a Seventh-Day Adventist point of view, to have denials posted of our fundamental beliefs. Ellen White repeatedly in her writings identified the bible as the Word of God, she identified The Son of God as The Word also. You cannot know or understand one without the other.

This is not just my personal opinion. The bible is the Word of God, and is an official Belief.

Seventh-day Adventists accept the Bible as their only creed and hold certain fundamental beliefs to be the teaching of the Holy Scriptures. These beliefs, as set forth here, constitute the church's understanding and expression of the teaching of Scripture....


1. Holy Scriptures:
The Holy Scriptures, Old and New Testaments, are the written Word of God, given by divine inspiration through holy men of God who spoke and wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. In this Word, God has committed to man the knowledge necessary for salvation. The Holy Scriptures are the infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the test of experience, the authoritative revealer of doctrines, and the trustworthy record of God's acts in history. (2 Peter 1:20, 21; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17; Ps. 119:105; Prov. 30:5, 6; Isa. 8:20; John 17:17; 1 Thess. 2:13; Heb. 4:12.)

Reference:http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html

Methods of Bible Study

Bible Study: Presuppositions, Principles, and Methods

1. Preamble

This statement is addressed to all members of the Seventh-day Adventist Church with the purpose of providing guidelines on how to study the Bible, both the trained biblical scholar and others....

Presuppositions Arising From the Claims of Scripture

a. Origin

(1) The Bible is the Word of God and is the primary and authoritative means by which He reveals Himself to human beings.

(2) The Holy Spirit inspired the Bible writ­ers with thoughts, ideas, and objective information; in turn they expressed these in their own words. Therefore the Scriptures are an indivisible union of human and divine elements, neither of which should be emphasized to the neglect of the other (2Peter 1:21; cf. The Great Controversy, v, vi).

(3) All Scripture is inspired by God and came through the work of the Holy Spirit. However, it did not come in a continuous chain of unbroken revelations. As the Holy Spirit communicated truth to the Bible writer, each wrote as he was moved by the Holy Spirit, emphasizing the aspect of the truth which he was led to stress. For this reason the student of the Bible will gain a rounded comprehension on any subject by recognizing that the Bible is its own best interpreter and when studied as a whole it depicts a consistent, harmonious truth (2Tim. 3:16; Heb. 1:1, 2; cf. Selected Messages, Book 1, 19, 20; The Great Controversy, v, vi).

(4) Although it was given to those who lived in an ancient Near Eastern/Mediterra­nean context, the Bible transcends its cultural backgrounds to serve as God's Word for all cultural, racial, and situational contexts in all ages.

b. Authority

(1) The sixty-six books of the Old and New Testaments are the clear, infallible revelation of God's will and His salvation. The Bible is the Word of God, and it alone is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested (2Tim. 3:15, 17; Ps. 119:105; Prov. 30:5, 6; Isa. 8:20; John 17:17; 2Thess. 3:14; Heb. 4:12).

(2) Scripture is an authentic, reliable record of history and God's acts in history. It provides the normative theological interpretation of those acts. The supernatural acts re­vealed in Scripture are historically true. For example, chapters 1-11 of Genesis are a factual account of historical events.

(3) The Bible is not like other books. It is an indivisible blend of the divine and the human. Its record of many details of secular history is integral to its overall purpose to convey salvation history. While at times there may be parallel procedures employed by Bible students to determine historical data, the usual techniques of historical research, based as they are on human presuppositions and focused on the human element, are inadequate for interpreting the Scriptures, which are a blend of the divine and human. Only a method that fully recognizes the indivisible nature of the Scriptures can avoid a distortion of its message.

(4) Human reason is subject to the Bible, not equal to or above it. Presuppositions re­garding the Scriptures must be in harmony with the claims of the Scriptures and subject to correction by them (1Cor. 2:1-6). God intends that human reason be used to its fullest extent, but within the context and under the authority of His Word rather than independent of it.

(5) The revelation of God in all nature, when properly understood, is in harmony with the written Word, and is to be interpreted in the light of Scripture....

This statement was approved and voted by the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists Executive Committee at the Annual Council Session in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, October 12, 1986

Reference: http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/other_doc...other_doc4.html

edited to fix quote

This post has been edited by Ian: Sep 26 2007, 10:19 AM

[västergötland]

Can you see if it's printed by 3 Angels broadcasting network, and if it's actually copy righted? The reason I am asking is because I don't think materials printed by 3ABN are usually copy righted, as they have a statement on their website that they can be freely distributed.

Puting copyright on material intended for distribution is sometimes done to make sure noone can change the contents or publish it under their own name and make money on it that way.

[Ian]

Puting copyright on material intended for distribution is sometimes done to make sure noone can change the contents or publish it under their own name and make money on it that way.

True, and I was mistaken.

I just checked, 3ABN no longer has that message, maybe because of just such problems? They have a copy right notice now. I was looking at their website in the internet archives yesterday, and my original statement was in reference to what I read on their web site from 1998.

This post has been edited by Ian: Sep 26 2007, 10:56 AM

[beartrap]

Great shades of the Kaballah ...

Primitive shades, but shades. My understanding of Kaballah is that the meditation and concentrated focus is to be done with a mind that is emptied of desire, ego, or preconceived interpretations or ideas of what God might reveal, so that YOU can see HIM. This rhema, on the other hand, sounds like a meditation in which the mind must neccessarily focus a particular personal desire through "God's Word" as a means of causing HIM to see what YOU want, and be caused to believe that it was His idea in the first place as it is coming to Him couched in His own "Word."

[västergötland]

Primitive shades, but shades. My understanding of Kaballah is that the meditation and concentrated focus is to be done with a mind that is emptied of desire, ego, or preconceived interpretations or ideas of what God might reveal, so that YOU can see HIM. This rhema, on the other hand, sounds like a meditation in which the mind must neccessarily focus a particular personal desire through "God's Word" as a means of causing HIM to see what YOU want, and be caused to believe that it was His idea in the first place as it is coming to Him couched in His own "Word."

A method of befooling God? Try to explain that on judgement day...

[Ian]

Primitive shades, but shades. My understanding of Kaballah is that the meditation and concentrated focus is to be done with a mind that is emptied of desire, ego, or preconceived interpretations or ideas of what God might reveal, so that YOU can see HIM. This rhema, on the other hand, sounds like a meditation in which the mind must neccessarily focus a particular personal desire through "God's Word" as a means of causing HIM to see what YOU want, and be caused to believe that it was His idea in the first place as it is coming to Him couched in His own "Word."

My thought here is mountains are being made out of molehills. I've watched Exalting the Word and the programs on Rhema and Logos, and what is being said here doesn't sound like what Shelly Quinn was teaching at all.

She does say to put the passage into a personalized form to make it personal, and to say it outloud and pray about it and claim it as a promise. But it is not to force our will upon God, but to learn his will for us and to put it into practice in our lives.


This is what I heard her teaching: Just as God calls things which are not as if they were according to his purpose and plan, we should take his word and believe it and act as if it is by faith. For example he says we are his children, I say and believe I am a child of God.


Memorizing and meditating on God's word is not a bad thing, it requires repeating the process.

That is not the same thing as chanting a mantra, or making vain repetitions.

I'd like to see the exact passage being referred to in context, instead of someones interpretation of it..

Laurence could you help me out here by providing the quote in context?

This post has been edited by Ian: Sep 26 2007, 11:21 AM

[västergötland]

What if there lives a rattlesnake in this molehill?

[princessdi]

Primitive shades, but shades. My understanding of Kaballah is that the meditation and concentrated focus is to be done with a mind that is emptied of desire, ego, or preconceived interpretations or ideas of what God might reveal, so that YOU can see HIM. This rhema, on the other hand, sounds like a meditation in which the mind must neccessarily focus a particular personal desire through "God's Word" as a means of causing HIM to see what YOU want, and be caused to believe that it was His idea in the first place as it is coming to Him couched in His own "Word."

[Rosyroi]

"experience sudden sponstaneous outbursts"

Googling what this refers to....

Epilepsy, alcaholism, Autism, uncontrolled anger. Didn't go far enough to find it equating it with my relationship with Jesus Christ.

I had no idea that my relationship with Jesus Christ needed to be experiencing sudden spontaneous outbursts during my Bible Studies.

Ps. Don't see anything wrong with sudden spontaneous outbursts of shouting "AMEN" or "Yea Preacher" during a rousing good preaching sermon.

[SoulEspresso]

SE,

No one is suggesting Jesus is the bible, or that a book be worshipped, a book is a thing. His word is exalted just as He is because it is HIS Word, and comes from HIM. (Ellen White said that also, for any who want to look up exalted and exalt in her writings.)

Jesus is THE WORD made flesh, the perfect and infallible revelation of God's will, purpose and character.

The bible does not just contain God's word IT IS God's Word. The bible is the inspired and written Word of God, and also the perfect and infallible revelation of God's purpose, will and character.

Two different ways which God reveals himself to mankind, but both declaring the same exact truth, sent straight from him.

You may certainly state your opinion and believe as you wish that the bible is Not God's word,and that it is dangerous to believe that, but as this is a Seventh-Day Adventist forum...

I think it is important to note that our very first fundamental belief does identify the bible as the Inspired and Written word of God. And I ask you to respect that Adventists do believe the bible is the Word of God, and not try to bring in arguments against that in this topic.
The Seventh-Day adventist faith is based on the premise that the Scriptures are God's Word to mankind. I do not think it is helpful as we try to study this out from a Seventh-Day Adventist point of view, to have denials posted of our fundamental beliefs. Ellen White repeatedly in her writings identified the bible as the Word of God, she identified The Son of God as The Word also. You cannot know or understand one without the other.

This is not just my personal opinion. The bible is the Word of God, and is an official Belief.
edited to fix quote

*sigh* I'm sorry I didn't write clearly enough.

I believe that reading the Bible gives you access to God's Word.
I believe that the Bible is the only rule of faith and practice for Christians.
I believe that all teaching on spiritual matters, God or any religious doctrine, ought to be evaluated by the Bible, rightly interpreted--"rightly dividing the Word."

As to what Adventists believe about the Bible, I would encourage you to read ... I think it's the first chapter of Selected Messages volume 1 by Ellen White. (If it isn't the first chapter, it's near the front.) I'd post from it myself but I'm on the church computer right now and I don't think it can handle the Java search at whiteestate.org--and, oddly enough, we don't have 1-2SM in the library.

In a crude sense, the Bible is God's Word, because God's Word is expressed there. What I meant was this (and again I apologize for the lack of clarity) ... the Bible was "God-breathed" or inspired as "men were carried along by the Holy Spirit." But ... there are errors in the Bible. Not doctrinal errors, not errors that would give anyone an excuse for not understanding God's purposes for the world, but errors. (The Bible says that the Scriptures can make you wise for salvation in Jesus Christ--that's the purpose.) The type of errors I'm talking about are chronological problems, numerical discrepancies, and grammatical errors (the book of Revelation in particular is a grammatical disaster ... it's like a third-grader's homework in Greek, and yes, I do know this firsthand).

None of these errors undermine the message of the Bible! But who is responsible for these problems? God? I don't think so ... He was using human beings to write down His messages. That's what I meant when I wrote that the Bible contains God's Word. Yeah, the Bible is God's Word in the sense that it expresses His messages to us, but as EGW says in that chapter I mentioned, God has not put Himself on trial as a writer in the Bible; it's not His mode of thought or expression, but His thoughts expressed within the limitations of human language. "The Bible writers were God's penmen, not His pen," she says.

The Seventh-day Adventist Church has never officially taught that the Bible is inerrant (though some of our publications may say that from time to time), only that it's infallible in directing people in the ways of salvation. EGW says in that chapter, "God and heaven alone are infallible."

The Bible itself only can be interpreted as calling itself the Word of God in two texts, and those fall within the parameters I mentioned two paragraphs up. The danger in calling it God's Word is that the Bible itself calls Jesus God's Word. And some Adventists end up treating the Bible like Muslims treat the Koran.

When it comes to Shelley Quinn, she can be interpreted as saying you can paraphrase the Bible and repeat it in such a way as to make God do things ... that's the problem we see here.

[awesumtenor]

*sigh* I'm sorry I didn't write clearly enough.

I believe that reading the Bible gives you access to God's Word.
I believe that the Bible is the only rule of faith and practice for Christians.
I believe that all teaching on spiritual matters, God or any religious doctrine, ought to be evaluated by the Bible, rightly interpreted--"rightly dividing the Word."

As to what Adventists believe about the Bible, I would encourage you to read ... I think it's the first chapter of Selected Messages volume 1 by Ellen White. (If it isn't the first chapter, it's near the front.) I'd post from it myself but I'm on the church computer right now and I don't think it can handle the Java search at whiteestate.org--and, oddly enough, we don't have 1-2SM in the library.

In a crude sense, the Bible is God's Word, because God's Word is expressed there. What I meant was this (and again I apologize for the lack of clarity) ... the Bible was "God-breathed" or inspired as "men were carried along by the Holy Spirit." But ... there are errors in the Bible. Not doctrinal errors, not errors that would give anyone an excuse for not understanding God's purposes for the world, but errors. (The Bible says that the Scriptures can make you wise for salvation in Jesus Christ--that's the purpose.) The type of errors I'm talking about are chronological problems, numerical discrepancies, and grammatical errors (the book of Revelation in particular is a grammatical disaster ... it's like a third-grader's homework in Greek, and yes, I do know this firsthand).

None of these errors undermine the message of the Bible! But who is responsible for these problems? God? I don't think so ... He was using human beings to write down His messages. That's what I meant when I wrote that the Bible contains God's Word. Yeah, the Bible is God's Word in the sense that it expresses His messages to us, but as EGW says in that chapter I mentioned, God has not put Himself on trial as a writer in the Bible; it's not His mode of thought or expression, but His thoughts expressed within the limitations of human language. "The Bible writers were God's penmen, not His pen," she says.

The Seventh-day Adventist Church has never officially taught that the Bible is inerrant (though some of our publications may say that from time to time), only that it's infallible in directing people in the ways of salvation. EGW says in that chapter, "God and heaven alone are infallible."

The Bible itself only can be interpreted as calling itself the Word of God in two texts, and those fall within the parameters I mentioned two paragraphs up. The danger in calling it God's Word is that the Bible itself calls Jesus God's Word. And some Adventists end up treating the Bible like Muslims treat the Koran.

When it comes to Shelley Quinn, she can be interpreted as saying you can paraphrase the Bible and repeat it in such a way as to make God do things ... that's the problem we see here.

I believe this is the passage you are alluding to, SE:

The writers of the Bible had to express their ideas in human language. It was written by human men. These men were inspired of the Holy Spirit. Because of the imperfections of human understanding of language, or the perversity of the human mind, ingenious in evading truth, many read and understand the Bible to please themselves. It is not that the difficulty is in the Bible. Opposing politicians argue points of law in the statute book, and take opposite views in their application and in these laws. {1SM 19.3}

The Scriptures were given to men, not in a continuous chain of unbroken utterances, but piece by piece through successive generations, as God in His providence saw a fitting opportunity to impress man at sundry times and
divers places. Men wrote as they were moved upon by the Holy Ghost. There is "first the bud, then the blossom, and next the fruit," "first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear." This is exactly what the Bible utterances are to us. {1SM 19.4}

There is not always perfect order or apparent unity in the Scriptures. The miracles of Christ are not given in exact order, but are given just as the circumstances occurred, which called for this divine revealing of the power of Christ. The truths of the Bible are as pearls hidden. They must be searched, dug out by painstaking effort. Those who take only a surface view of the Scriptures will, with their superficial knowledge, which they think is very deep, talk of the contradictions of the Bible, and question the authority of the Scriptures. But those whose hearts are in harmony with truth and duty will search the Scriptures with a heart prepared to receive divine impressions. The illuminated soul sees a spiritual unity, one grand golden thread running through the whole, but it requires patience, thought, and prayer to trace out the precious golden thread. Sharp contentions over the Bible have led to investigation and revealed the precious jewels of truth. Many tears have been shed, many prayers offered, that the Lord would open the understanding to His Word. {1SM 20.1}

The Bible is not given to us in grand superhuman language. Jesus, in order to reach man where he is, took humanity. The Bible must be given in the language of men. Everything that is human is imperfect. Different meanings are expressed by the same word; there is not one word for each distinct idea. The Bible was given for practical purposes. {1SM 20.2}

The stamps of minds are different. All do not understand expressions and statements alike. Some understand the statements of the Scriptures to suit their own particular minds and cases. Prepossessions, prejudices, and passions have a strong influence to darken the understanding and confuse the mind even in reading the words of Holy Writ. {1SM 20.3}

The disciples traveling to Emmaus needed to be disentangled in their interpretation of the Scriptures. Jesus
21
walked with them disguised, and as a man He talked with them. Beginning at Moses and the prophets He taught them in all things concerning Himself, that His life, His mission, His sufferings, His death were just as the Word of God had foretold. He opened their understanding that they might understand the Scriptures. How quickly He straightened out the tangled ends and showed the unity and divine verity of the Scriptures. How much men in these times need their understanding opened. {1SM 20.4}

The Bible is written by inspired men, but it is not God's mode of thought and expression. It is that of humanity. God, as a writer, is not represented. Men will often say such an expression is not like God. But God has not put Himself in words, in logic, in rhetoric, on trial in the Bible. The writers of the Bible were God's penmen, not His pen. Look at the different writers. {1SM 21.1}

It is not the words of the Bible that are inspired, but the men that were inspired. Inspiration acts not on the man's words or his expressions but on the man himself, who, under the influence of the Holy Ghost, is imbued with thoughts. But the words receive the impress of the individual mind. The divine mind is diffused. The divine mind and will is combined with the human mind and will; thus the utterances of the man are the word of God.-- Manuscript 24, 1886 (written in Europe in 1886). {1SM 21.2}

In His service,
Mr. J

[PeacefulBe]

Another similar quote from EGW:

The ten commandments were spoken by God himself, and were written by his own hand. They are of divine, and not human composition. But the Bible, with its God-given truths expressed in the language of men, presents a union of the divine and the human. Such a union existed in the nature of Christ, who was the Son of God and the Son of man. Thus it is true of the Bible, as it was of Christ, that "the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us." John 1:14. {GC, 1888, page c.5, Author's Preface}

[princessdi]

HUGE problem with it was that because SQ is "instructuing" them in Step #2, the "outbursts" are no long sudden or spontaneous. Plus praise and worship can not be instructed on time and place......never mind...ther is just so much wrong with that one thing............

"experience sudden sponstaneous outbursts"

Googling what this refers to....

Epilepsy, alcaholism, Autism, uncontrolled anger. Didn't go far enough to find it equating it with my relationship with Jesus Christ.

I had no idea that my relationship with Jesus Christ needed to be experiencing sudden spontaneous outbursts during my Bible Studies.

Ps. Don't see anything wrong with sudden spontaneous outbursts of shouting "AMEN" or "Yea Preacher" during a rousing good preaching sermon.