Propose Some "wisdom Of Solomon" Even At This Late Date? Options

[Skyhook]

Why does it matter whether they are by-laws or changes in by-laws?

Perhaps what is needed is changes in by-laws to deal with certain questionable changes in in-laws.

[mystery- man]

Anybody have access to any changes in by-laws that contain character provisions for directors, officers, and employees? An ounce of prevention is still worth a pound of cure even with those white as the driven snow.

Two wrongs never make a right; however, two changes made by the BOD may have made it as right as best they knew how going forward under the circumstances.

I still don't subscribe to illegally obtained evidence even though it may be proof!

CPAATY, is this a sutle way of saying you believe there is proof? "I still dont subscribe to illegally obtained evidence even though it may be proof". I would doubt very much if the proof that they had was indeed proof in the beginning, I would suggest that it was mostley (spin). Like I was told when I was young, that if it walks like a duck and quakes like a duck doent mean it is a duck untill you see it, and then see if fly

If the body of individuals are not suited to lead or are brainwashed by their leaders (laws, by-laws) or whatever would have made very little difference. The Jews had laws about killing people but the people were so brainwashed that none of that mattered. A fundamental change must occure in the way people think before real change can happen. The leaders by in large, though not completely, see themselves in a light that God did not intend for them to be in. I believe if they rightly saw themselves they would have acted with more compassion and a large percent of what happen could have been avoided. The example of the woman that was taken in the very act of adultry and brought to Jesus should have stood as an example of dealing with people but somehow I dont think they ever considered any of that. It is my belief that they thought they were doing their duty of cleaning the camp of sin or whatever, when rightfully if they looked in the mirrow they would have seen themselves needing the blood to cleanse them and then they would not have tried to save the reputation of 3abn but their own sinful souls.

[beartrap]

Exitus acta probat.

[PeacefulBe]

veritas simplex oratio est

[Fran]

Exitus acta probat.

The result justifies the deed. (translation)

[Fran]

veritas simplex oratio est

"the language of truth is simple." When others offer you complex excuses, your 'truth detector' should go off. With apologies to Sir Walter Scott, "Oh, what a tangled web we weave, When first we practice to deceive!" If you would speak the truth when writing a critique or explaining thing to your boss, state it simply.

Yep!

[CPAATTY]

CPAATY, is this a sutle way of saying you believe there is proof? "I still dont subscribe to illegally obtained evidence even though it may be proof". I would doubt very much if the proof that they had was indeed proof in the beginning, I would suggest that it was mostley (spin). Like I was told when I was young, that if it walks like a duck and quakes like a duck doent mean it is a duck untill you see it, and then see if fly

If the body of individuals are not suited to lead or are brainwashed by their leaders (laws, by-laws) or whatever would have made very little difference. The Jews had laws about killing people but the people were so brainwashed that none of that mattered. A fundamental change must occure in the way people think before real change can happen. The leaders by in large, though not completely, see themselves in a light that God did not intend for them to be in. I believe if they rightly saw themselves they would have acted with more compassion and a large percent of what happen could have been avoided. The example of the woman that was taken in the very act of adultry and brought to Jesus should have stood as an example of dealing with people but somehow I dont think they ever considered any of that. It is my belief that they thought they were doing their duty of cleaning the camp of sin or whatever, when rightfully if they looked in the mirrow they would have seen themselves needing the blood to cleanse them and then they would not have tried to save the reputation of 3abn but their own sinful souls.

It is great to apply a favorite Biblical principle to demonstrated failure under the proper facts and circumstances. Many times our attempts come off as not fully understood by all based on the individual's knowledge of all the facts and circumstances coupled with any vested interests.

I, by no means, imply that you have correctly applied or misapplied the principle presented while I love the admonition urged in its practical application. The principle is intended to humble we stone throwers who also fail to recognize three when we engage with the index. The principle is presented in such language for the humbling of all to the extent they better understand how to deal in a "wheat\tares" environment. I've never studied the composition of the audience in that situation as to physical vs cherished thought for the divine application where misunderstanding on proper application should be attempted."

I have had the opportunity to be paid on many matters where the investigative nature of my work began with my proper analysis of actual adherance to theoretical internal control. Admittedly, most of my work with internal controls was with "for profits' in areas where non compliance was apt to exist where the discovery of one matter could lead to another.

While there are allegations as indications whereby some have pointed to financial impropriaties, my approach is solely to the alleged moral character issues that may not require proof of physical adultry which I would like to think never happened. I simply will address the group approach to business going forward decisions.

I see two co-founders who may have felt so entrenched in business management coupled with schedules, work loads, timeframes, relationships, geography, and a number of other elements that could cause doubts to arise among some where one or the other seemed to fail to the other in application of proper priorities which can easily happen. It happens every day while not necessarily converging in dire circumstances always. I see the possibility of two founding members failing to recognize their true value going forward which they based on their prior service. All good servants should be able to reasonably answer the final question, "but, what can you do for us now.", no matter the accuracy of any allegation. The work environment as well as financial support as a whole was probably suffering which caused board action when in reality, morals, in essence, were not the major issue of the board's two actions whether it agrees with your thinking or not.

The "proof" matter was merely presented to convey only a "legal attitude" only as a distinct possibility rather than probability of fact coupled with no attempt to usurp heavenly abilities to supplement weak human inabilities. You have probably heard some alleged proof theories.

I finally placed the "work environment" factor and "financial support" factors in a possible priority level to the extent that all of us, including myself, can overcome our individual "self-imposed egos" and face the acceptable reality of the matters in the absence of a well recognized miracle by all.

Further, I am left with mixed feelings of a successful "defamation" matter based merely on allegations. The final act of the group seemed to recognize facts of major proportions rather than allegations which would defeat any defamation matter on the part of any party thus far recognized.

I hope I have been able to present the side of a lawyer practically trained in fence-straddling as some see it. Feebly attempt to see your hired attorney as both your agent in presenting your facts and as an officer of the court for truth.

This post has been edited by CPAATTY: Oct 29 2007, 09:30 AM

[Statrei]

The principle is intended to humble we stone throwers who also fail to recognize three when we engage with the index.

The index? Is that like the illuminati?

[CPAATTY]

This lawyer\cpa has seen a lot of "self justification" even in religious matters amongst many tied to the purse-strings of the church where administrators have a degree of direction, control if you must, which I heartily suggest as a hedge for "decency and order" in all respects as we are all still human. Once decency and order are breached, it takes too many resources to get the "ox out of the ditch" where it could be construed that the ox was placed there conveniently. The "placing" in this case is no exception to that rule.

I remember well the "camp meeting contacts" ab initio and wasn't too swift even then on "independent ministries" conveniently connected to the "regularly organized church" primarily from its financial resources. I became aware of human tendencies of some to embezzle from "church related funds" early in gaining my educational work for my dual profession. With this knowledge in hand, I am never surprised that a major player in an independent minestry may be tagged with possible misconduct where there is a possible breakdown in corporate governance. My years of "fact finding" in my dual profession speaks loud and clear of "red flags" needing further attention.

It appears to me that some have conveniently latched on to "spiritual adultry" rather than "physical adultry" for their degree of "self-justification" for their actions. We should all clearly understand that "adulty" within the relationships between the "HEVENLY PERSONAGE" involves even "THE VERY THOUGHTS!" Are all thoughts sinful or is it necessary for these thoughts to become "cherished" before they become sin? While I have avoided two areas of law, criminal and domestic relations, I see only "physical adultry" as biblical justification as last resort for divorce as I understand, for only myself, that thoughts, even cherished if they become, are not yet "matters between the married parties." We should all understand that both spiritual as well as physical adultry must be forgiven.

While I have formed my own opinion in this matter to self-justify any actions that may be required of me going forward, I query whether the wisdom of Solomon could be applied in this environment by the use of polygraph techniques in re the "crux of the problem" to possibly see which side would "walk with the baby" if the results thereof could be rightly determined from being conducted in a well defined environment while keeping in mind that the theory of "spiritual vs physical adultry" will not be resolved. Rather than being misled of evil, I will excuse my spouse for using "spiritual adultry" against me if they so desire while opting only for "physical adultry" for myself as a reason. Why would I take this position? Simply stated, true spiritual adultry can only be surmised by weak human beings if used as an "excuse" as it is only between the Creator and the created and fully understood only by the Godhead.

On the way out while remaining a casual observer to note "hoped for progress", I came here to find possible relief for my thoughts garnered from real life. I came here seeking a bit of relief in matters where my brethren in the church had not been dealt with fairly as I saw it. I didn't get full satisfaction even when I finally had to admit, as I see it now, "It is all over but the shouting", as some have termed. I am distressed today even more after a rather large "FOR SALE" sign was strategically placed in the front of my local church in what I saw as being "less than honest and forthright" in its merger with its district urban sister church.

I can't blame any one one event for the sign placing yesterday while I apparently must face reality since I have opted not to spend around $280,000.00 to purchase it for a church or ministry suggested by one of the urban church leaders voting for the merger and the main force in the relocation site of the newly merged church. It appears to me that the former argument that my local church building may now be more strategically located than formerly trumpeted. Oh yes, we are located in a bedroom-community within driving distance of the urban church when discontent appeared where a certain level of morals were not upheld by all. It appeared that a number of events happened in the urban church that caused a "swelling of the ranks" in my local church by members whose attitude changed in favor of merger and relocation after an extended period, more than a year, after the sale of the old urban church building with dual services which was later combined into one. The urban church failed to move swiftly when the demographics changed signifying a need to timely relocate. The conference president admitted publicly that he erred in the sale of the old urban church but offered no recourse to the older members of the rural church. I'll not dwell on the fact that the pastor of both district churches did not live strategically near either of his churches. I'll not mention that the local district was used by a number of younger pastors who felt a need for a DD or PhD at a local seminary with an Episcopal connection, the last being a degree related to "TIME SAVING" as I understand it. That former pastor is now a professor at our union university. As one of the local elder, I felt and abandonment of the district where a number of various and sundry problems to arise including 13 alleged teen pregnancies, including one alleged pastoral. I could mention several other local problems like the conference president allowing my local church to be sold as being voted out of office on three votes at the recent constituency meeting but allegedly allowed by the union president to remain in office for a "seamless tranfer" when he found a suitable position and which has not happened to date to my knowledge. And, I could go on and on to the extent I may be understood to be nothing more than a sorehead. And the merged and relocated seems to continue having financial budget problems for current operation in addition to building funds.

No matter how we may wish to change things, our need to sleep in a bed may be necessitated by "our own making" or from our "relaxed positions whereby other are allowed to make our beds for us." I have little to offer in our current situation other than to advise adequate internal controls, even among relatives, through charters, by-laws, operating manuals, to name a few, as an ounce of prevention to cover those things that can happen when they shouldn't when you form a private ministry that can evolve into an independent or organized ministry.

[PeacefulBe]

Oh. So sorry you are going through this. Political turmoil within the denomination, locally or in the greater organization, is a most effective tool to refocus our hearts and minds off of the Savior and onto the world. Sad. I pray you and others will resist the refocusing effort and remain faithful in your relationships with our Redeemer. He is our peace.

[CPAATTY]

How long will the financial supporters of independent ministries sleep on a demand for an operating manual defining acceptable morals and other key factors such as transfers or sales of donated property for BOD, management, and employees for their continued undiluted support?

Does anyone have the statististics on the divorce rate of SDA pastors and\or regular church employees including the trend over the years?


Anyone care to guess how many times the SEVENTH COMMANDMENT has been removed?


Your assistance will be greatly appreciated!

[Johann]

How long will the financial supporters of independent ministries sleep on a demand for an operating manual defining acceptable morals and other key factors such as transfers or sales of donated property for BOD, management, and employees for their continued undiluted support?

Does anyone have the statististics on the divorce rate of SDA pastors and\or regular church employees including the trend over the years?
Anyone care to guess how many times the SEVENTH COMMANDMENT has been removed?
Your assistance will be greatly appreciated!

I feared we'd dropped you off in a sharp curve. Good to see you are still on board!

[CPAATTY]

I feared we'd dropped you off in a sharp curve. Good to see you are still on board!

Hardly lost in a sharp curve as that's the best place for an attorney to justly enrich their spouses. It appears I have come back for a very, very short spell as it further appears there is little interest from independent ministry factors in the field of MORALS, edicted or otherwise, and maybe insider transactions!

[PeacefulBe]

Hardly lost in a sharp curve as that's the best place for an attorney to justly enrich their spouses. It appears I have come back for a very, very short spell as it further appears there is little interest from independent ministry factors in the field of MORALS, edicted or otherwise, and maybe insider transactions!

Perhaps the interest in at least discussing this would be a little greater if it were easier to understand some your posts. Please don't get me wrong, it's great that you have such a fluency in legalese, but some here (at least me) don't so it makes gleaning your points a bit difficult and, as a result, less than appealing to join into the discussion. Veritas simplex oratio est does have its appropriate place.

I do have one silly little question for you. Do you talk this way at home? Just wondering...

[Noahswife]

Please don't get me wrong, it's great that you have such a fluency in legalese,

PB:

Please do not confuse "legalese" with poor writing.......

How do you define legalese?

"Legalese has four elements, as defined in David Mellinkoff's Legal Writing: Sense and Nonsense: formalisms, such as now comes; archaic words, such as hereby; redundancies, such as each and every; and Latin words, such as per curiam."

"There are also four elements of poor writing in general, which I call gobbledegook: long sentence length, weak passive verbs, wordy phrases and unnecessarily long words.

http://lawschool.westlaw.com/shared/market...7&subpage=3

Also, please do not assume the ability to write gobbledegook equivalent to legal training as I am not aware of any other poster on this forum with legal training who finds it necessary to write in such a manner.

Although not a student of latin, I have a few favorite latin phrases of my own. One I have wanted to post many times on this forum is ipse dixit. Which i understand to be latin for "he himself said it". In otherwords, the only proof we have of the fact is that this person said it.

nw

This post has been edited by Noahswife: Nov 7 2007, 12:17 PM