Propose Some "wisdom Of Solomon" Even At This Late Date? Options

[Fran]

Fran, I have a computa programma that switches regula talk into illlegaleese. Here's what I think you just said..

What! I've been waiting on a bit of thought, one that is. Divide abilities about Rhema and you could been waiting a bit to hear from us thus far...what maybe the right one.

Since abilities, he's in thus far. What, maybe someone has not been speaking or entering in the day! I've the money. Divide an inverted spear from the must have been waities, hear now, you could have been waiting, but instead one must have just the abilities, hear what? I've been startled once, had started again, started one anyway. Divide disabilitating by abilities of tongue and an abilitaters interval you'll have just surely believed just such.

Huh?

[CPAATTY]

Snoopy, we are not here to curry favor in all respect with you to the extent of being able to approach this overall mess in a forthright, honest, and resolutive manner. While I am not here to preach to you about your "quotes, which I like," with a play on words, I think the two of us can wade through the muck of those with confirmed agendas. I have a problem with your text which uses "continually" with the admonition to "pray without ceasing. My play on words involves "continuousl" (without ceasing) vs continual(intermittently) of which there is a difference. Your quote is correct; however, I subscribe to the "pray without ceasing" while admitting I can't fully explain it to you.

I personally think the composition of the BOD composed of members too closely aligned with what we style in business as "private equity" used to avoid the more stringent reporting requirements. I think the composition of the board has been composed of a "cloistered group" unable to adequately judge the real feelings of the "alleged 60% of the shareholders in the pew" which comes with no overnight fix if a problem arises. Yes, the problem arose possibly because of the "continual" approach by the BOD which didn't anticipate the gravity of the potential problem; whereas, they may have been able with the "continuous" of assessing the issue of character gravity on the business model. I have detected instances of similar issues in the past where I concluded that the " character level of the BOD, the governing." was too closely aligned with that of the officers of the corporation, the governed." The "shareholders in the pew" should have no problem "directly" with the officers since their problems really exist with the BOD regarding their exercising of corporate governance.

My experience with "private"(close family type) corporate enterprise has been more limited than that of the public type where "close family problems" would not generally exist. My analysis of programming has led me to the conclusion of "heavy family involvement" in the management and employee levels) which involves a greater degree of corporate governance as this family-factor increases. While I cannot handicap the "family factor", I can see where the BOD was unable to properly judge the attitude of the "alleged 60% shareholder factor in relation to its decisions regarding its handling of the "management\employee family factor" which raised the ire of the shareholders and thereby causing the character matters to be splashed to the public which caused a noticable impact on operations.

The character matters as seen by the "shareholder-factor" appears to involve some officers as well as some employees which may involve family ties. The main character flaws causing concerns for the shareholder-factor appears to involve the gravity of "spiritual adultry" vs "physical adultry" for biblical divorce and remarriage of the officers; whereas, other types of character flaws were applied to the employees. It appears most of the employee character concerns may have been resolved while the "officer" matters keeps festering. I doubt the changes in leadership tainted with "substance vs form" issues as related to "officer vs consultant" will have a great impact on the general attitude of the shareholder-factor going forward. The divorce factor may not have become an issue for the shareholder-factor had it not been for the remarriage after what some termed a "quickie foreign divorce" where the shareholder-factor was not really pleased with a reliance on "spiritual adultry" rather than physical adultry biblical support to support their faith to continue unfettered financial support going forward.

While I principally place myself among the shareholder-factor, I am not 100% sure that decency and order have been used in the sum-total of the matters at hand. I would have chosen to approach the BOD directly, which may have been done, rather than some individual officer since the alleged offending conduct was "allowed to happen" rather than being "directly as a result of board action which are different with the same final results. I have an issue with the leadership of the regularly organized SDA church at all levels whereby such such events, in the final analysis, could publicly present themselves. I am not sure there are not corporate governance problems raising red flags in the regularly organized whereby a "60% shareholder factor" could allegedly feel duped in a situation where they did not enjoy any direct control. I am totally aware that the regularly organized church clergy from whence the church administrative leadership generally comes may have some of the same type character concerns as the laity has in the instant matters. I am further aware that the regularly organized church uses the services of the organization causing the laity's concerns. I am not totally aware of the total regularly-organized leadership concerns; however, I am well aware that these concerns exist due to the allegations of defamation and unauthorized use of patents\trademarks.

The legal actions taken thus far do not really concern me to the extent I have been able to physically research. I see the overall situation as between a group on very concerned shareholder hoping to salvage a ministry rather than to destroy same. We think the "crux" of the alleged problem should be fixed FBO the shareholders in the pew to an acceptable level of charactership for their continued support since they have become materially aware. I think it should have been approached by the "regularly organized church leadership rather than being left to the behest of the laity however loosely formed. In the final analysis, I merely suggested the polygraph approach FBO of the BOD in their attempt to allay the alleged controlling shareholders concerns for their continued support or FBO of the shareholdes if the BOD did not exercise their power of control over the officers to what they considered an acceptable level. There is a lot of smoke and maybe some fire available that a certain shareholder-factor initiated contacts that could and should have led to a private resolution of the matters at hand rather than for same to become public unless insurmountable issues of "character" and "loaves\fishes" continued to present themselves.

I now query the present situation as being as confusing as the party who becoming confused while giving directions with "I think you can get there from here, but, go over to the next town before you try to start again." With that thought in mind, I will tarry here for a while with no agenda if I can be of any help just in case the matters at hand have not already resolved themselves.

I doubt any resolution to the satisfaction of the 60% shareholders in the pew other than their withdrawal from the local corporate conduit which is already in place so they may then elect "direct deposits" individually then spiritual adultry will not be a corporate problem to non-participants.

[CPAATTY]

I doubt any resolution to the satisfaction of the 60% shareholders in the pew other than their withdrawal from the local corporate conduit which is already in place so they may then elect "direct deposits" individually then spiritual adultry will not be a corporate problem to non-participants.

Statistical significant number of divorces in "certain threaded professions" could be a hint to the lack of interest in "polygraph science" where it wouldn't be as easy to cover your coat tail!

[beartrap]

CPAATTY,

Do the "60% shareholders" care about the "spiritual adultery thing, the divorce, and the remarriage? Other than perhaps making a little blip that raises the eybrow for a moment, would the results of a Solomonic test, polygraph science, or any other form of truth serum mean anything in the long run? In my opinion the answer would be no. Do you suppose that the "60% shareholders" care whether a BOD cares about anything? I don't think so. Nor do I believe that they care whether the "Organized" organization cares either.

[CPAATTY]

CPAATTY,

Do the "60% shareholders" care about the "spiritual adultery thing, the divorce, and the remarriage? Other than perhaps making a little blip that raises the eybrow for a moment, would the results of a Solomonic test, polygraph science, or any other form of truth serum mean anything in the long run? In my opinion the answer would be no. Do you suppose that the "60% shareholders" care whether a BOD cares about anything? I don't think so. Nor do I believe that they care whether the "Organized" organization cares either.

Thanks Bear, I felt you would come through. I like your practicality; however, my verbage would include "really" in addition to your "care" in all respects. I see no problem with your thought in that we will have to acknowledge that certain actions have been taken by many of the players, however feeble, in their "salvaging" attempts to the matter.

My "wisdom of Solomon approach" was begun with the thought of "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" going forward so as to possibly reduce the frequency of the "blips" as you so practically and wisely phrase them. The organization and its members really cared about the "alleged spiritual" being "essentially equivalent to physical thing" or the moves they have made never would have happened. Hopefully, those moves will prove to be salvaging decency and order. Hopefully, the moves made by a possible slow BOD will prove to be of a salvaging nature as well as signals to some of their thoughts of less than stellar conduct .

Taking a break for a Sabbath day's journey.

[Panama_Pete]

Hopefully, the moves made by a possible slow BOD will prove to be of a salvaging nature as well as signals to some of their thoughts of less than stellar conduct .

Taking a break for a Sabbath day's journey.

I think these BOD folks are up and walking around just to save the funeral expenses.

Before they vote, they should hold mirrors up to their own nostrils to see if the mirrors fog up. If they do detect some mirror fog, then, and only then, should they convene a board meeting. That's probably why they have a medical doctor for their chairman: They would need someone licensed in Illinois who could legally determine if they had a quorum amongst the bodies drooping over a board table, wouldn't they?

They might need some person there, too, who could shout "Clear" when they are short of votes and they need to bring out the paddles to increase the vote tally.

[Johann]

I doubt any resolution to the satisfaction of the 60% shareholders in the pew other than their withdrawal from the local corporate conduit which is already in place so they may then elect "direct deposits" individually then spiritual adultry will not be a corporate problem to non-participants.

Do you consider this to be a lack of awareness?

[lurker]

We are used to living in a society with a herd mentality. Current public opinion influences us as individuals and as a church as to the justice or injustice of a cause and whether there a need to do anything. It is hard to make the truth known and to make people care even when it is known. Unless we are steadfast until truth triumphs, we as a church and the public at large will be as fickle as the crowds that cried "hosanna" one day and "crucify him" the next.

Even when shocking facts are known and can be documented, unless these facts can be communicated and individuals can be awakened out of their sleep to care, the whole church could burn down around us and we would be smiling and doing "business as usual" while the angels weep.

This post has been edited by lurker: Oct 20 2007, 12:29 PM

[beartrap]

CPAATTY,

Hope your Sabbath trip went well and was a success.

Do you think that the donors care, or will care, what any of their demi-gods have performed in the name of the doctrinal set they adhere to? I very much doubt it. In the arena of religion, words speak louder than actions.

This post has been edited by beartrap: Oct 21 2007, 08:34 AM

[CPAATTY]

I think these BOD folks are up and walking around just to save the funeral expenses.

Before they vote, they should hold mirrors up to their own nostrils to see if the mirrors fog up. If they do detect some mirror fog, then, and only then, should they convene a board meeting. That's probably why they have a medical doctor for their chairman: They would need someone licensed in Illinois who could legally determine if they had a quorum amongst the bodies drooping over a board table, wouldn't they?

They might need some person there, too, who could shout "Clear" when they are short of votes and they need to bring out the paddles to increase the vote tally.

Thanks Pete for your cogent observations. I will continue to lend my support to organization where I can also expect to find a degree of peace, harmony, and the ways of service and salvation knowing full well that the latter is a results to, but, and indication of the former. I am still sane enough to the ways of the world as not to expect the same from known disorganization where I would find no joy in "fattening frogs for snakes!"

Stick around for the resolution for the good of the organized work, with it attending human weak links, with the full knowledge that organization alone, in and of itself, will not save any.

[PeacefulBe]

Thanks Pete for your cogent observations. I will continue to lend my support to organization where I can also expect to find a degree of peace, harmony, and the ways of service and salvation knowing full well that the latter is a results to, but, and indication of the former. I am still sane enough to the ways of the world as not to expect the same from known disorganization where I would find no joy in "fattening frogs for snakes!"

Stick around for the resolution for the good of the organized work, with it attending human weak links, with the full knowledge that organization alone, in and of itself, will not save any.

Yep. While we "weak links" have the opportunity to proclaim His Good News (or leave it to the rocks), and minister to those needing our assistance, only He is the source of salvation.

[mystery- man]

Thanks Pete for your cogent observations. I will continue to lend my support to organization where I can also expect to find a degree of peace, harmony, and the ways of service and salvation knowing full well that the latter is a results to, but, and indication of the former. I am still sane enough to the ways of the world as not to expect the same from known disorganization where I would find no joy in "fattening frogs for snakes!"

Stick around for the resolution for the good of the organized work, with it attending human weak links, with the full knowledge that organization alone, in and of itself, will not save any.

Cpaatty, no wonder the world is in such bad shape "lawyer" my daughter is a lawyer and she dont talk that foolishness like you do (Harvard grad to boot). Where can I find the smiley face with the hind portion showing, you really make me LOL.

[princessdi]

This is the only one, MM! LOL!!

[CPAATTY]

Do you consider this to be a lack of awareness?

What is your level of awareness of morals attempting to justify a divorce with remarriage on the alleged basis of "spiritual adultry?

Johann, you can be assured of the level of "awareness" of both the believer as well as the unbeliever mainly by their individual actions. Some act differently in a corporate setting to what they would do individually. You will note I have used the term "assured" as appropriate as an expression of my positive approach to the subject short of the ability to "insure" the matter. The following is approached with no intent to defame any or to demand any changes in management or otherwise where a "principal matter or principle" is not involved, especially where I have no dog in the fight or where I am not a paid advisor.

I will "cut to the chase" for you, et al so that you may be able to assess the level of awareness in situations where actions or a series thereof with need to be reviewed in the absence of published notices. When it comes to matters of principal, you will get a wide window of acceptance or rejection, depending on the "social setting." Would you be willing to go on record in handicapping the subject of "sex" when comparing "Hollywood" with most any regularly-organized religious organization?

You cannot always gauge the levels of awareness based solely on the degree to which "official actions" are either enacted and\or published. The use of wheat\tares action may be leaned upon hard by administrators; whereas, some of we institutionally managed become frustrated that any leaning-on what they see as sin is hardly exercised as they see it by those with the responsibility. The degree of differences between the thought processes of humankind has given rise to promoting their religious thought through various and sundry organizations, whether formal, informal, legal, illegal, for various and sundry reasons.

As a member of a regularly organized church in good and regular standing for 53 years burdened with certain issues with certain of its administrators on the local level to which I feel I have all the facts rather than having to totally rely on rumors or the direction of subsequent conduct on which to base my conclusions. My local rural church began in the 1920s attended by all races serving a wide rural area until a consolidating of membership by local action pushed by a former pastor who was later temporarily severed with a later rehiring. The conference administrative committee had voted a "consolidation of local church pastoral duties rather than any consolidation of church memberships; however, the conference president allowed this to happen from the argument pushed mainly by the larger church that "my rural church had become no longer strategically located." The "strategic location" was, in reality, a moot point since it was being used by the same language group presently attempting to get some "formal understanding" for continued use. Due to the administration of local law enforcement and the general feeling by the language group regarding enforcement of immigration laws, it appears the use of the rural church facilities has become so tenuous that the property needs to be sold(period). Since I live doors from the rural facilities, I canvassed 4 of the occupants of the former school building who were able to find work locally only to find that neither of the 4 would be classified as legal immigrants. I struck up a conversation in the last few days with one of the major forces in the overall local consolidation where their attitude has done a "180" on "strategic location" were I to pay $280,000, in effect, on the new urban project housing the consolidated results. A number of members and former members soon became aware of the local consolidating efforts and contacted me with promises of changing provisions in their Last Will and Testaments in favor of the local conference. I was contacted by others in the local conference after the final votes of consolidation by those who seemed to be displeased with local conference administration and who were in contact with some from the local conference executive committee who felt a need for administrative changes.

I let "sleeping dogs" enjoy their peace since I had been threatened with bodily ejection from one of the local meetings on consolidation urged by the then current pastor with a police law enforcement background of recent conversion at an age when the ability of future retirement benefits, standing along, would be marginal. That pastor's formal education for pastoral duties, I believe, were solely from Andrews. That pastor lived 20 miles away from either of the 2 churches finally merged. It was conveyed to me that very little, if any, disussion of consolidation was had by that pastor accompanied by one of the local elders of the then rural church, with a third of four under consideration. As it was put to me, the pastor and local rural elder agreed among themselves how the consolidation would proceed. I felt a duty to feebly attempt to save the local rural church from consolidation from the event since I had been able to block an alleged rapist's influence in my local church in the not-too-distant past. I divinely sensed my velnerability in the meeting where I was positioned in near juxtapositon to at least 3 friendly to the pastor's wishes as the meeting progressed even though the meeting was not being "chaired" by the pastor. The pastor, acting alone, urged my bodily ejection to three of his friends, one being the local elder with which he apparently conspired as to the direction "they" would take at their first hint of "any" opposition to their plan. In the final analysis, I survived with bodily retention in the meeting; however, upon immediate inspection of my tires, I divinely found a bright shiny new 1" cabinet finishing nail neatly positioned straight in about half its length in the "outside middle of the sidewall of one of my rear tires which was not readily viewable in the parking lot. Several finish cabinet makers were in attendance with one being rather vocal as in agreement with the consolidation to which I was surprised as not having been in regular attendance in the extended recent past. The vocal cabinet maker was probably there like others who were in attendance at the behest of their parents simply for voting purposes.

A general awareness and understanding of the local 2 church urban\rural district was beset with typical allegations of 13 teen pregnancies with an allegation of a fathering of a pregnancy by a former pastor where a subsequent adoption "may" have been an indication of primae facie conduct in a period before DNA testing or other scientific evidence signaled a degree of firm evidence not available in other settings. There were allegations of an adoption in the rural church of the results of their participation in an outside pregnancy. The proof available on those allegations seemed to be on public display of kinship even to the feature of a red tress as well as many others.

It was my understanding that the local police preacher who had a major part in our consolidating events soon left the district before any major happenings required by the construction of the new urban consolidated church at a final cost to date of many, many multiples of funds available in or forseen at that time as would be available in the treasury after the treasurer of the urban church voiced in a common meeting, "we don't need your money as we have $650,000 and a lot for which we paid $100,000." The police pastor allegedly soon left the district and totally resigned his employment due to certain alleged talk about his wife of which I am not privy. The only thing I had ever heard about the wife was conveyed by the police pastor was that she liked auctions. While I was not impressed with an understanding of every person's need to be somewhere, I accepted the pastor's averment. as a potential area for their ministry. I have been advised by an unimpeachable source that the police pastor found employment in a local book store in the area when they moved back near their old home to care for the wife's ailing parent or parents. It is my current understanding that the police pastor has become more firmly entrenched in the regularly organized ministry in his former district near his home town.

Another local happening of which all interested parties may not be aware surrounds the current local conference leadership where the recently called constituency meeting where the duly elected nominating committee saw a need and voted for a change in leadership for a sum total of 3 times which did not meet with the pleasure of the chairman which happened to be the union president. It was my understanding that a truce, if I may style it, was entered into predicated on the understanding that the chairman\union president would oversee soon a "voluntry seamless change of conference leadership." There appears to be no moves toward any "voluntary seamless" changes to date. I am not privy to any reasoning for the lack of movement even by a more favorable window for assuring a "seemless change" in conjunction with a reasonably-acceptable "seamless change!"

My hope is to keep the faith and finish the fight even with a lack of awareness, some of which "may" be heavensent even with the knowledge that some alleged well meaning board of directors can deliver a dismissal in one case and reassignment in another where the only differences could be construed as a doctrinal understanding between parties unless either of the parties had a felt need to clothe their subsequent actions with what they understood to be "acceptable" conduct to a necessary population.

It is my well intentioned modus operandai to sit idly by, as some may see it, hoping to convey the degree of cooperation necessary for the "finishing" in my area of the vinyard within the confines of a divine influenced understanding.

Johann sit by and wait for the pot-shots from those with a lesser degree of understanding of the well intentioned verbage or those with an agenda toward self-justification or just an axe to grind!

This post has been edited by CPAATTY: Oct 23 2007, 12:08 PM

[Seraphim7]

Johann...

Johann sit by and wait for the pot-shots from those with a lesser degree of understanding of the well intentioned verbage or those with an agenda toward self-justification or just an axe to grind!