Latest On 3abn - Round 3, Kay Kuzma Response to L Shelton Story Options

[Daryl Fawcett]

Just wondering how many reliable witnesses there are that knows what's really going on at 3ABN. The more witnesses the better.

[LadyTenor]

In some instances God gives us eyes and ears to see and hear. I was staying with Linda together with another friend at her daughter's place in Springfield at the time the Board met at Thompsonville. We came earlier to Thomsonville for the purpose of telling the Board what we had personally seen, observed and heard, but Danny had his "bodyguards", including Dr. Walt Thompson, come to us and ask us the leave the premises. Danny himself came around and threatened that if we appeared again on the 3ABN premises he would have the police arrest us for trespassiing private property. This happened on Thursday evening, May 27, 2004.

A staff member at 3ABN was hoping for a reconciliation and he tried to arrange a meeting on Friday, May 28. Some of us wanted Mark Finlay to be there, but 3ABN did not want to involve him at that stage. So it was arranged that I should meet with the 3ABN group on behalf of Linda and Dr. Arild Abrahamsen. We had to meet in West Frankfort because Danny had forbidden me to appear anywhere near the presmises of 3ABN. There I met with Dr. Walt Thompson, attorney Nick Miller, and pastor John Lomacang.

Having served in varous capacities within the Seventh-day Adventist Church for about 50 years I have been a member of many boards, but I have never in my life met a more hostile group than these men. They were so downright biased in favor of Danny and hostile towards Linda that I have never experienced anything like it, and never in a group of professing Christians. They wanted no reconciliation except on Danny's premises.

I tried to tell these men that my wife and I had been together with Dr. Arild Abrahamsen - the man Linda was accused of having had an affair with - during the whole period that they were supposed to have been together in Florida. And we were together with him in Norway where my wife received daily treatments from him for her cancer, making it impossible for him to be in Florida at the same time.

But these men had heard Danny's testimony, and that was all that they seemed to care about.

There was no possibility of any kind of reconciliation. All they seemed to care about was that Danny could get Linda off his back to get a Biblical mandate to marry someone else.

Walt Thompson finally stated a few weeks ago that I could have come to that Board meeting if I had asked him to let me speak there. I'd say he should not have waited to make that statement until two year later. Then he should have made that clear when I met with him two days before the Board meeting.

Walt Thompson was the one who said the least at that meeting. I had a feeling he was hesitating. So when I met with him alone after the others were gone, I laid out a plan of reconciliation and hopefully a restoration of the marriage between Danny and Linda, his response was,

- "Danny would never accept that. You know how Danny is."

I recognize the statements that your pastor friend claims Walt Thompson made to him. There is a truth in them. This is not how it really happened, but how Danny Shelton and the 3ABN Adminnistration would like the financial supporters of 3ABN should think it really happened.

Danny has made it clear to me in writing that God is not making him accountable for his actions since God needs him to run a TV station. He states that since God could use Moses and David and others who were murderers and adulterers, then he can also use Danny Shelton without him having to account for his sins.

If Danny had merely committed the sins of Moses and David and confessed his sins, it would be terrible of me to go against him. The only reason I participate in this discussion is because I have experienced how he has lied and humiliated his now former wife, Linda, and that he has used his wealth and influence to convince his friends and board members he is telling the truth, and that Linda deserves such utter humiliation.

I have not yet clarified all the questions that are raised, but let me stop here. But you are free to ask for more information on what I have experienced first hand iin this case.

Johann Thorvaldsson

Daryl, if you are paying attention, THIS is an example of first hand information! Johann is speaking here from PERSON experience and is an EYE and EAR witness to what he described. Had he told us about things that he "heard" about, then it would be second hand...and if we were to repeat what Johann has told us here to someone else offline, then THAT would be second hand and third hand and so forth...

[PrincessDrRe]

Sometimes....those that can "see" wish to remain "blind" to sight....
PDR

[awesumtenor]

Is it safe to ask how many people here, and elsewhere, have first hand knowledge of this corruption at 3ABN?

How many will it take to get you off the fence you seem intent on straddling?

In His service,
Mr. J

[watchbird]

This has got to be one of the most troubling posts I've read on this topic. For some reason this cuts through the "tabloid-esque" nature of the saga (for me) so far and really hits home to me that there may well be demonic forces at work here with the intent of distracting us from focusing on Christ.

Nuggie, "tabloid" accounts are those that go for the sensational. They exaggerate to the point of both distortion and inaccuracy, and their aim is to make things look a great deal worse than what they are. Sister's accounts, and other vignette type experiences posted here, may have a superficial resemblance to tabloid accounts because they are so far from what we expect to find behind the scenes in a Christian ministry. But she has said repeatedly, and all other actors, witnesses, and reporters of the incidents have confirmed, that in fact what she is telling is only the tip of the iceberg. And far from exaggerating things we have all been very much restrained in telling them like the really are.

There are, to be sure, different styles of reporting. Some are "bare facts" narratives such as Johann customarily gives. But to really understand the people and to be able to "enter" the stories themselves, it takes another style, and that is what Sister has done so well at. For as she has shown, there is not only evil, there is humor and joy and all kinds of people, from innocent children to adults of various belief and value systems, personalities, and understanding of the environment in which they live. There are some kinds of questions that can only be answered by these kinds of insights. So all styles are needed and as the various styles touch upon the same information, we get deeper insights than we could with any one alone.

As to the purposes of "demonic forces". As Christians we know that there are always two "forces" which are vieing for our alliegence, and we know the purpose of each. But one lesson I think we can learn from the 3ABN saga is that when everything is seen in terms of what God did or what the demons did then personal responsiblity is shortchanged. And personal responsibility is exactly what a relationship with Christ is about. So I think it would be much better to simply speak in terms of what humans do. They tell truths. They tell lies. They misunderstand. They learn. And we learn as we compare what different ones do.

[Guest_statrei_*]

How many will it take to get you off the fence you seem intent on straddling?

In His service,
Mr. J

Daryl so desperately wants not to believe. Unfortunately, there is not a Bible text available that would help him not believe. He finds himself facing the same dilemma Galileo's court faced. He wants to rely on authority but finds that he must use reason.

[watchbird]

Is it safe to ask how many people here, and elsewhere, have first hand knowledge of this corruption at 3ABN?

Sure, it is "safe to ask" anything that you want. But when you ask a question to which only God knows the answer, don't be surprised if you don't get an answer that you can put in your little "fact bag".

And I am increasingly disturbed by you use of "first hand knowledge" as though that were the only type that was trustworthy or reliable. It may be, as the lawyers on here point out to us, that only first had witness is acceptable in a court of law. But this is not a court of law. This is a forum where those who know something come to bring their little bits and pieces of information so as to see how they fit together--something like assembling a jigsaw puzzle when you don't know the picture and you do know that not all the pieces are present.

First hand knowledge is not the only kind of knowledge that is reliable. In fact, those with first hand knowledge may be so close to the action that they can only see their own part in it, but not see clearly how that fits into the complete picture. So friends and researchers and reporters and analyzers all have an impotant role to play in our search for understanding and truth.

[Nuggie]

Nuggie, "tabloid" accounts are those that go for the sensational. They exaggerate to the point of both distortion and inaccuracy, and their aim is to make things look a great deal worse than what they are. Sister's accounts, and other vignette type experiences posted here, may have a superficial resemblance to tabloid accounts because they are so far from what we expect to find behind the scenes in a Christian ministry. But she has said repeatedly, and all other actors, witnesses, and reporters of the incidents have confirmed, that in fact what she is telling is only the tip of the iceberg. And far from exaggerating things we have all been very much restrained in telling them like the really are.

There are, to be sure, different styles of reporting. Some are "bare facts" narratives such as Johann customarily gives. But to really understand the people and to be able to "enter" the stories themselves, it takes another style, and that is what Sister has done so well at. For as she has shown, there is not only evil, there is humor and joy and all kinds of people, from innocent children to adults of various belief and value systems, personalities, and understanding of the environment in which they live. There are some kinds of questions that can only be answered by these kinds of insights. So all styles are needed and as the various styles touch upon the same information, we get deeper insights than we could with any one alone.

As to the purposes of "demonic forces". As Christians we know that there are always two "forces" which are vieing for our alliegence, and we know the purpose of each. But one lesson I think we can learn from the 3ABN saga is that when everything is seen in terms of what God did or what the demons did then personal responsiblity is shortchanged. And personal responsibility is exactly what a relationship with Christ is about. So I think it would be much better to simply speak in terms of what humans do. They tell truths. They tell lies. They misunderstand. They learn. And we learn as we compare what different ones do.

I'm not discounting Sister's version of the 3ABN events and I'm not questioning the accuracy of what she's posted here...there was just something very real and disturbing about Johann's account and for some reason it made me have one of those moments when you go "Oh, my...this really is real?" I don't know quite how to describe it, but it just made me pause for a moment.

As to your point about "demonic forces"...I agree that personal responsibility is the most important thing for all Christians...again, something about this whole story just gives me the creeps.

[Clay]

Just wondering how many reliable witnesses there are that knows what's really going on at 3ABN. The more witnesses the better.

only in your world.... when something has the ring of truth to it, a multitude of witnesses is not needed.....

I mean let's look at what we have here Daryl. There are 10 installments of personal testimony, and about 8 or 9 other threads dealing with various aspects of this 3abn mess..... its quite obvious that you are choosing not to believe.... and that is your right.... do us a favor though and just say you don't believe it after everything you have read thus far.... its apparent to everyone else that you are not..... its okay if you don't believe, you won't be banned or ostracized... you may get some funny looks, but I suspect you have had that reaction before.....

Just don't pretend you are seeking the "truth" cause you aren't......

This post has been edited by Clay: Jul 5 2006, 09:40 PM

[watchbird]

I'm not discounting Sister's version of the 3ABN events and I'm not questioning the accuracy of what she's posted here...there was just something very real and disturbing about Johann's account and for some reason it made me have one of those moments when you go "Oh, my...this really is real?" I don't know quite how to describe it, but it just made me pause for a moment.

As to your point about "demonic forces"...I agree that personal responsibility is the most important thing for all Christians...again, something about this whole story just gives me the creeps.

Expressed this way, I can really relate to the feeling I think you are describing. Taken a bit at a time it is possible to keep reading it through our filters of what should be rather than looking squarely at what is really being said. But somewhere in the back of our head the "bits" keep accumulating, and finally something makes them suddenly merge together and we come face to face with that "mement of truth" when we know this really is real. And we are never quite the same again.

For me, I think that came with the reading of the Televangelist document. Not that I doubted the veracity of any of the stories I had already heard that were included. But there was something about seeing them all together in one place that made me realize another level of "real" than I had previously seen.

[PaperTigers]

Expressed this way, I can really relate to the feeling I think you are describing. Taken a bit at a time it is possible to keep reading it through our filters of what should be rather than looking squarely at what is really being said. But somewhere in the back of our head the "bits" keep accumulating, and finally something makes them suddenly merge together and we come face to face with that "mement of truth" when we know this really is real. And we are never quite the same again.

For me, I think that came with the reading of the Televangelist document. Not that I doubted the veracity of any of the stories I had already heard that were included. But there was something about seeing them all together in one place that made me realize another level of "real" than I had previously seen.

I would have to agree... even working in it on a daily basis, you sometimes get blinded by the day to day stuff... but I read the Televangelist document and went, "oh my goodness, this is so true."

[Chez]

Kay Kuzma holds an EdD (Doctor of Education) degree, not a PhD (Doctor of Philosophy) degree.

This post has been edited by Chez: Jul 6 2006, 09:33 AM

[Daryl Fawcett]

only in your world.... when something has the ring of truth to it, a multitude of witnesses is not needed.....

I mean let's look at what we have here Daryl. There are 10 installments of personal testimony, and about 8 or 9 other threads dealing with various aspects of this 3abn mess..... its quite obvious that you are choosing not to believe.... and that is your right.... do us a favor though and just say you don't believe it after everything you have read thus far.... its apparent to everyone else that you are not..... its okay if you don't believe, you won't be banned or ostracized... you may get some funny looks, but I suspect you have had that reaction before.....

Just don't pretend you are seeking the "truth" cause you aren't......

Steve,

I am surprised at you judging me like that, especially coming a person of leadership within this forum!!!!! I hope you don't judge others the same way!!!

When I hear something from those who witnessed it themselves, I consider that as being factual, and I am greatly concerned about what is going on at 3ABN.

[Clay]

Steve,

I am surprised at you judging me like that, especially coming a person of leadership within this forum!!!!! I hope you don't judge others the same way!!!

When I hear something from those who witnessed it themselves, I consider that as being factual, and I am greatly concerned about what is going on at 3ABN.

Daryl,
That is not a statement of judgment, it is one of observation... you have expressed doubt in spite of all that you have read here.... what else would you call it? Anyone who expresses doubt like that here I will tell them what I am seeing.....

What you will come to see is that here on this forum we don't hold back our opinions, our observations, our views.... to some that is a bit disconcerting....

As I said before, its okay if you don't believe everything you read about 3abn, I don't... and its okay to say it.....

[awesumtenor]

Steve,

I am surprised at you judging me like that, especially coming a person of leadership within this forum!!!!! I hope you don't judge others the same way!!!

When I hear something from those who witnessed it themselves, I consider that as being factual, and I am greatly concerned about what is going on at 3ABN.

If a man relieves himself from the balcony and tells those on the sidewalk below that it's raining... if someone standing aside says to them... 'uh... that's not rain'... he has not judged the man on the balcony...

In His service,
Mr. J