Ministry Or Business, When does ministry stop being ministry? Options

[Preacher's Kid]

They could go out and get a real job. Or quit pretending that a career in the entertainment business is a "ministry." From what I have read, CCM is a billion dollar business. I have yet to hear of anyone being converted at a CCM concert. And according to some of the former performers, some of the life styles of the CCM "stars" are anything but Christian.
I attended a Sabbath afternoon concert at a relatively large church to hear a well known popular Adventist group (about ten or twelve singers using back up tapes) I was nothing more than entertainment. I did not see how mentioning Jesus once in a while in their songs and talk made it a spiritual experience. Then the leader made a rather pitiful plea for money. I was not impressed.
JMHO re entertainment "ministries."

I've seen it happen. Anyway this is a great topic, a lot of what I wanted to say has already been said. But I will just put in my 2 cents anyway. I'm amazed at the folks who don't have a problem with ball players becoming rich off of playing a child's game, however have a problem with Ministers who are doing well for themselves. I wish that the GC would pay the Pastors what they are paying those high up execs who work at the GC building in Silver Springs....As already been mentioned we have to remember those who devout their lives to the ministry still have families they have to take care of and they shouldn't be "punished" because instead of working a 9-5 they decided to follow the call of God. If God picked them to be ministers of the Gospel and he decides to bless them for it who are we to have a problem with it? And one more thing I think it's kinda foul how everybody wants to know the exact amount some preachers are making, unless your willing to put your W2 forms up in front of the church or the internet I think you should as somebody else said put the hateraide down.

[princessdi]

Man!! Where you been?!!It's about time I got some help around here! We claim to be the "Remnant" whilst calling the RCC the beast, but we have simulated so many of thier ways...including the mindset that those who serve God full time need to take a vow of poverty, not to mention trying to get ahead or propering in any way. Our pastors and conference workers are our equivalent in our mindset to priests and nuns, and for some reason need to live on near poverty. Where we differ is that we expect our pastors to support a family, including being vegetarian or vegan(that food has ALWAYS been sky high, send their children to "our" schools, with a slight discount, keep a decent house for company, keep a decent car for travelling to visit member, smeetings, etc., nobody better not be ragedy, be available 24/7, and require extensive education( which we should) that no one here on this board with the same education would even consider the salery they receive.

I've seen it happen. Anyway this is a great topic, a lot of what I wanted to say has already been said. But I will just put in my 2 cents anyway. I'm amazed at the folks who don't have a problem with ball players becoming rich off of playing a child's game, however have a problem with Ministers who are doing well for themselves. I wish that the GC would pay the Pastors what they are paying those high up execs who work at the GC building in Silver Springs....As already been mentioned we have to remember those who devout their lives to the ministry still have families they have to take care of and they shouldn't be "punished" because instead of working a 9-5 they decided to follow the call of God. If God picked them to be ministers of the Gospel and he decides to bless them for it who are we to have a problem with it? And one more thing I think it's kinda foul how everybody wants to know the exact amount some preachers are making, unless your willing to put your W2 forms up in front of the church or the internet I think you should as somebody else said put the hateraide down.

[Preacher's Kid]

Man!! Where you been?!!It's about time I got some help around here! We claim to be the "Remnant" whilst calling the RCC the beast, but we have simulated so many of thier ways...including the mindset that those who serve God full time need to take a vow of poverty, not to mention trying to get ahead or propering in any way. Our pastors and conference workers are our equivalent in our mindset to priests and nuns, and for some reason need to live on near poverty. Where we differ is that we expect our pastors to support a family, including being vegetarian or vegan(that food has ALWAYS been sky high, send their children to "our" schools, with a slight discount, keep a decent house for company, keep a decent car for travelling to visit member, smeetings, etc., nobody better not be ragedy, be available 24/7, and require extensive education( which we should) that no one here on this board with the same education would even consider the salery they receive.

I hate to say it, but that's the truth. I know a great Pastor, he has a real heart for the people. Anyway he is driving in a car that has almost 400 thousand miles on it and he can't afford to buy a new one. And I'm like the church is ok with this? There is a real problem when you expect these Pastors to be able to do everything we do on less salary cause here is a news flash the conference ain't paying these pastors well at all. As you said, the people on this board who have a PHD in anything wouldn't take the pay the conference is giving these Pastors. I have always said I would like to see our Pastors being taken care of more. I don't know about yall but I have known Pastors that have been there for their church members when ever they need them even sometimes sadly having to not spend much time with their families because of some church issues or issues church members are having. And I dare not mention the fact that Adventist Pastors aren't supposed to have side jobs to take care of their families.

[missthg]

So how come no one raises a stink on behalf of the pastors? Start a pastors union to get higher wages....you know im jess starting something...

[watchbird]

So how come no one raises a stink on behalf of the pastors? Start a pastors union to get higher wages....you know im jess starting something...

Because the REAL pastors are not complaining... and the truth is not being told about the difference between the wage scale of pastors and administrators.

[Truly Blonde]

Because the REAL pastors are not complaining... and the truth is not being told about the difference between the wage scale of pastors and administrators.

When my father was a pastor it was expected they should sacrifice. Most pastors didn't complain. We got other perks to make up? for it. Good medical and dental insurance, much lowere tuition for church school and milege and parsonage allowance. most of the mothers I knew went to work when their children reached academy and College age to make ends meet. We all survived but some better then others. I guess my biggest complaint was the notion that a pastor was on call 24/7 and was gone alot and not home being a father. Today pastors make a lot more then when I was young, however the difference between local pastors and administrators and hospital adm. should not be. If the GC people made the same as a local pastor the pay scale would rise for the local pastor. And as you said WB the real pastors are not complaining because they are on a mission for lost souls and they feel it is worth the sacrifice.
TB

[simplysaved]

A good administrator DOES need to get paid....that does not negate the fact that most Pastors within the Seventh-day Adventist Church need a raise.

Because the REAL pastors are not complaining... and the truth is not being told about the difference between the wage scale of pastors and administrators.

[simplysaved]

I say author a book, start an internet business, or find another way to supplement---like most mainstream non-Adventist pastors do.

When my father was a pastor it was expected they should sacrifice. Most pastors didn't complain. We got other perks to make up? for it. Good medical and dental insurance, much lowere tuition for church school and milege and parsonage allowance. most of the mothers I knew went to work when their children reached academy and College age to make ends meet. We all survived but some better then others. I guess my biggest complaint was the notion that a pastor was on call 24/7 and was gone alot and not home being a father. Today pastors make a lot more then when I was young, however the difference between local pastors and administrators and hospital adm. should not be. If the GC people made the same as a local pastor the pay scale would rise for the local pastor. And as you said WB the real pastors are not complaining because they are on a mission for lost souls and they feel it is worth the sacrifice.
TB

[YogusBearus]

When my father was a pastor it was expected they should sacrifice. Most pastors didn't complain. We got other perks to make up? for it. Good medical and dental insurance, much lowere tuition for church school and milege and parsonage allowance. most of the mothers I knew went to work when their children reached academy and College age to make ends meet. We all survived but some better then others. I guess my biggest complaint was the notion that a pastor was on call 24/7 and was gone alot and not home being a father. Today pastors make a lot more then when I was young, however the difference between local pastors and administrators and hospital adm. should not be. If the GC people made the same as a local pastor the pay scale would rise for the local pastor. And as you said WB the real pastors are not complaining because they are on a mission for lost souls and they feel it is worth the sacrifice.
TB

Yes, I recall the point that the Adventist church was unique in that all workers were paid at the same relative level regardless of position. It was a pretty revolutionary approach that apparently is no longer, if ever, true. The sheeple are learning and those hidden benefits of power will not be hidden forever.

I think to paint the Adventist Health system as a ministry and the administrators as "workers" is laughable. The church lost control of the health system back under Neal Wilson's watch. We have hundreds of healthcare executive "workers" pulling down six and seven figure salaries before benefits. While Adventists don't have a corner on corporate non-profit greed, I'm truly ashamed that as a church we allow this type of abuse to continue. Believe me, none of these administrators are any more qualified than some of our truly committed pastors.

How did we get here?



-bear

[simplysaved]

However, there is a move like with Bishop Eddie Long not to receive any salary from the church at all....ans then support your ministry.

I say author a book, start an internet business, or find another way to supplement---like most mainstream non-Adventist pastors do.

[Richard Sherwin]

I've got to take issue with pastors poor pay. Their pay, (and our teachers pay) is better than many many peoples. They have tons more benefits than many people, they get help with tuition, compensation for the use of their cars, excellent insurance, retirement benefits etc etc. In many areas of the country where there are mostly blue collar or agricultural work the teachers and preachers make far more then the rest of the church members, as evidenced by the cars they drive and the houses they live in. They know full well that they are not going to get rich in their professions but from everything I have seen they are not getting poverty wages by a long shot. 40+ grand a year with all those benefits is pretty darn good if you ask me.

I would be interested in knowing what our leadership get paid. Unless things have changed I thought a conference president only receive about 5% more than a regular preacher, given the same years of service.

Richard

[Snoopy]

I must respectfully disagree with regard to the teachers pay. I come from a family of denominational teachers and none that I know of ever came close to even 40K a year. Pitiful when you think of the responsibility they hold. BTJM...

I've got to take issue with pastors poor pay. Their pay, (and our teachers pay) is better than many many peoples. They have tons more benefits than many people, they get help with tuition, compensation for the use of their cars, excellent insurance, retirement benefits etc etc. In many areas of the country where there are mostly blue collar or agricultural work the teachers and preachers make far more then the rest of the church members, as evidenced by the cars they drive and the houses they live in. They know full well that they are not going to get rich in their professions but from everything I have seen they are not getting poverty wages by a long shot. 40+ grand a year with all those benefits is pretty darn good if you ask me.

I would be interested in knowing what our leadership get paid. Unless things have changed I thought a conference president only receive about 5% more than a regular preacher, given the same years of service.

Richard

[Richard Sherwin]

Yes I really don't know what I'm talking about, since my wife only taught in our schools for 20 years.....

I must respectfully disagree with regard to the teachers pay. I come from a family of denominational teachers and none that I know of ever came close to even 40K a year. Pitiful when you think of the responsibility they hold. BTJM...

[Snoopy]

Good grief. I surely was not trying to insinuate that you don't know what you are talking about.

I was simply offering my opinion that I do not think SDA teachers are adequately compensated based on my own experiences. You are certainly free to disagree, which you obviously do.

Yes I really don't know what I'm talking about, since my wife only taught in our schools for 20 years.....

This post has been edited by Snoopy: Nov 27 2007, 08:07 PM

[AzA]

So, evidently, there isn't always parity across the denom when it comes to what institutional workers are paid. Of course part of that's entirely logical: a worker in Cali will need more money than a worker in Dallas, and a wage+benefits package can balance off against a wage-only package. Secular institutions have long adjusted for that sort of thing.

Beyond such obvious adjustments however, I'm not sure that the Adventist accrediting folks require Schools/Hospitals A, B, and C to compare disbursements with similar institutions in the country and/or church and then fall in line. At one Caribbean institution, even workers have a very difficult time getting reasonable financial information about their compensation or the pay scales, and it's been going on for a long time despite its immorality and despite workers' fair objections. So I haven't found church institutions to be all that transparent, not in terms of money, morals, or doctrine. That doesn't mean I would never work with them again; they still do plenty of good regardless. But it is something I'm aware of, and frankly, I pray about it. I'm convinced they'd be more effective if they fixed up.