An Unauthorized History Of 3abn, Continues Options

[GRAT]

Sister, thank you for confirming what I had thought since coming here. Both Alethia and Ian consistently used "a" in front of words starting with vowels. (not starting that discussion again.)

[Observer]

I fully endorse all thar Observer says in this post.

I figured that I would get come feedback. Whie Johann has endorsed me, others have not. Here is one comment that I recieved:

Actually, not according to thr Bible. It states the duties of an elder.
That better be our final authority, right?

At the risk of being misunderstood, I am going to debate that point:

1) In regard to the duties of church officers the Bible specifies the duties in general terms. No where does it say that every person holding a specific office shall be required to perform all of the duties of that office. The Bible does not prevent a local congregation from dividing up the duties of an office and give some duties to some persons who hold that office and give some other duties to other people who hold an office.

To be specific, there is no requirement that an Elder be able to perform all of any list of specified duties.

Let me give you an example: I pastored a chruch once at a time when the Conference President had a burden for the Elders to be able to perform all of the duties on a list of his. Some of us objected to that. So, he went around we who were his pastors and he sent a letter to all of our local church leaders telling them what he wanted in regard to Elders.

One of my Elders could not read the English language, or any other language, due to a lack of education. He had served as an Elder for many years and we simply did not give him duties for which he was not qualilfied. Because of the letter that came from the Conference President that congregation voted not to have any Elders.

Let me give you another example: There are some large churches that have ordained SDA pastors as members of the congregation who are not part of the pastoral staff. The church I attend has four (4) such ordained SDA pastors who are not employed by the Conference and therefore are not on the pastoral staff. It is within denominational guidelines for that congregation to elect these people as local Elders and not give them specific duties.

2) Others have mentioned the CHURCH MANUAL. Folks, that is only a guideline. Divisons have the right to make adjustments. So do Conferences. Exceptons may be granted and are granted. Some provisions of the CHURCH MANUAL are in confllict with other provisions. In such situations one of the provisions has to give.

3) As to a congregation placing a non-SDA in a leadership positon, that should be very carefully done and likely not often. But, no rule can cover every possibility. Even in this there can be exceptions. I am aware of situations where this has worked well.

[PeacefulBe]

The same source that correctly identified FHB as Greg, the son of Walt Thompson, has shared the information that Ian is in fact Cindy, also known as Alethia and various other cyber incarnations. The reason her writing appear to be that of a woman, rather than a man, is because she is in fact a woman.

If you remember when Cinda/Alethia arrived at BSDA she claimed not to know any of the principles involved, nor to have visited 3ABN, but had come as a seeker of truth. In her incarnation as Ian she claims to have intimate knowlege of the ongoings at 3ABN. Interesting....I wonder who will be the next incarnation? Will Bystander return from the vastness of Cyberspace?

Sister, I realize this is your thread. I'm saddened to see that you haven't realized that there is a trend on these threads towards peace. More and more members are seeing the need to lay aside the rancor and meanspiritedness and embrace each other's value in Christ. I know this is hard when one is so invested on a specific course, but it is the only way we can hope to move towards anything that resembles true victory.

Ian has done a wonderful job, IMO, of moving away from anger and devisiveness and towards carefully constructed posts that illuminate and present a separate perspective. Why does that need to be such a threat as to spur you and some others on to this "outing"?

You have forgotten that Ian has already revealed the truth..

Jeanette

[Dona]

The same source that correctly identified FHB as Greg, the son of Walt Thompson, has shared the information that Ian is in fact Cindy, also known as Alethia and various other cyber incarnations. The reason her writing appear to be that of a woman, rather than a man, is because she is in fact a woman.

If you remember when Cinda/Alethia arrived at BSDA she claimed not to know any of the principles involved, nor to have visited 3ABN, but had come as a seeker of truth. In her incarnation as Ian she claims to have intimate knowlege of the ongoings at 3ABN. Interesting....I wonder who will be the next incarnation? Will Bystander return from the vastness of Cyberspace?

Surmising is not a becoming characteristic.

[Ian]

The same source that correctly identified FHB as Greg, the son of Walt Thompson, has shared the information that Ian is in fact Cindy, also known as Alethia and various other cyber incarnations. The reason her writing appear to be that of a woman, rather than a man, is because she is in fact a woman.

If you remember when Cinda/Alethia arrived at BSDA she claimed not to know any of the principles involved, nor to have visited 3ABN, but had come as a seeker of truth. In her incarnation as Ian she claims to have intimate knowlege of the ongoings at 3ABN. Interesting....I wonder who will be the next incarnation? Will Bystander return from the vastness of Cyberspace?

1. The same source? although my initial thought was to presume you are referring to "bob" as he has worked so tirelessly and vindictively to out FHB, it was followed by the realization that so many of you worked to out FHB, you yourself being the latest, so I guess the question is who is this source and how would they know, and why are their claims credible?

2. As far as all the various other cyber incarnation you allege goes, the question I have is : what are you talking about, and what is the basis for claiming this? Possibly I have a multiple personality disorder, but if so i am not yet aware of it, and would like to see the evidence of such.

3. I have never claimed to have a intimate knowledge of the ongoings at 3abn. I have been there, I have either met or know individuals being accused and discussed in these discussions/debates here, but they did not send me here, nor tell me what to post, nor feed me any information to post . Not even once. I have my own mind, and can investigate things for myself.

Anything I have posted beyond my own opinion or personal view based on what has been presented here by other posters, (which others are free to disagree with) has either been documented or can be verified by simply contacting the people involved and asking the same questions for yourselves.

4. I agree, surmising is not attractive, nor is attacking a poster simply because you can not rebut what they posted. It indicates to me that you are standing on a very shaky leg.


To all concerned in these issues, i would just say, like fox news, we report, you decide.





P.S. PB, my oldest son bears the family name John. I had always thought it meant 'beloved of God"
his brother's name means "servant of God". I always liked that as God gave them to me, and in return I gave them back to him. peace

This post has been edited by Ian: Jan 29 2008, 02:24 PM

[Johann]

I figured that I would get come feedback. Whie Johann has endorsed me, others have not.

- - -

2) Others have mentioned the CHURCH MANUAL. Folks, that is only a guideline. Divisons have the right to make adjustments. So do Conferences. Exceptons may be granted and are granted. Some provisions of the CHURCH MANUAL are in confllict with other provisions. In such situations one of the provisions has to give.

3) As to a congregation placing a non-SDA in a leadership positon, that should be very carefully done and likely not often. But, no rule can cover every possibility. Even in this there can be exceptions. I am aware of situations where this has worked well.

I have been in a situation where I held the Chuch Manual in my hand facing a Conference president who infomred me that this manual was only in force in a conference which has endorced it. And that conference president had great experience leading the work in many parts of the world field. Certain conferences have amendments to the Manual which are in force in their local area.

Then I have also been in churches where certain officers were not members of the church, including Sabbath School teachers and other officers - some with the approval of the confernece president.

We have the full right to object to this practise, and state that it is not good. But these situations have been a reality in our world church - for better or for worse.

This post has been edited by Johann: Jan 29 2008, 01:03 PM

[awesumtenor]

.
To all concerned in these issues, i would just say, like fox news, we report, you decide.

Faux News? That explains a lot... not the least of which is your maintaining the delusion of your reporting being "fair and balanced"...

In His service,
Mr. J

[sister]

Sister, I realize this is your thread. I'm saddened to see that you haven't realized that there is a trend on these threads towards peace. More and more members are seeing the need to lay aside the rancor and meanspiritedness and embrace each other's value in Christ. I know this is hard when one is so invested on a specific course, but it is the only way we can hope to move towards anything that resembles true victory.

Ian has done a wonderful job, IMO, of moving away from anger and devisiveness and towards carefully constructed posts that illuminate and present a separate perspective. Why does that need to be such a threat as to spur you and some others on to this "outing"?

You have forgotten that Ian has already revealed the truth..

Jeanette

Jeanette,

I am by nature a peaceful individual, but I do not believe in obtaining peace at the price of sacrificing truth or allowing injustice to prevail. How can there be peace when wickedness still prevails? How can there be justice when there has been no repentance or restitution? A call for reformation and renewal would be more in keeping with the testimony of Scripture!

Sister

[princessdi]

Well now, since instituting the new policy about IDs, this would not be of any interest to an Admin like me. However, since Aletheia/Cindy has been banned, this would be a breech of the rules. This is not just a wild claim by sister, as there has been question as to the IDs/ID sharing of other of Danny's supporters. So much so that Calvin looked into it. Personally, as a member, I am convinced that several people share several IDs here, including Adminstration at 3ABN. Just have no concrete evidence of such, only that the personalities seem to change, etc, just the overall feeling that you are not talking with the same person all the time. Ian, I noticed in your response that you did not deny the accusation.........so for the record............Feel free to repsond in PM.

Also, Ian, you don't claim to have intimate knowldge, but you post it. Far more intimate information for someone who just casually met and discussed these accusations. If Danny laid out ALL his buisness like that to someone he just met....well.....that just doesn't make any sense. If you are here supporting Danny and 3ABN, then it is quite alright that they are the ones providing you the information. Apparently you werent' there, and somebody has to tell you. How many times have you encouaraged us to go to the horse's mouth. I would assume that is your practice, right? I am not seeing the problem of admitting that 3ABN and Danny are your source of information.

1. The same source? although my initial thought was to presume you are referring to "bob" as he has worked so tirelessly and vindictively to out FHB, it was followed by the realization that so many of you worked to out FHB, you yourself being the latest, so I guess the question is who is this source and how would they know, and why are their claims credible?

2. As far as all the various other cyber incarnation you allege goes, the question I have is : what are you talking about, and what is the basis for claiming this? Possibly I have a multiple personality disorder, but if so i am not yet aware of it, and would like to see the evidence of such.

3. I have never claimed to have a intimate knowledge of the ongoings at 3abn. I have been there, I have met people being accused and discussed in these discussions/debates, but they did not send me here, nor tell me what to post, nor feed me any information to post I have my own mind, and can investigate things for myself.

Anything I have posted beyond my own opinion or personal view based on what has been presented here by other posters, (which others are free to disagree with) has either been documented or can be verified by simply contacting the people involved and asking the same questions for yourselves.

4. I agree, surmising is not attractive, nor is attacking a poster simply because you can not rebut what they posted. It indicates to me that you are standing on a very shaky leg.
To all concerned in these issues, i would just say, like fox news, we report, you decide.
P.S. PB, my oldest son bears the family name John. I had always thought it meant 'beloved of God"
his brother's name means "servant of God". I always liked that as God gave them to me, and in return I gave them back to him. peace

[Observer]

I have been in a situation where I held the Chuch Manual in my hand facing a Conference president who infomred me that this manual was only in force in a conference which has endorced it. And that conference president had great experience leading the work in many parts of the world field. Certain conferences have amendments to the Manual which are in force in their local area.

Then I have also been in churches where certain officers were not members of the church, including Sabbath School teachers and other officers - some with the approval of the confernece president.

We have the full right to object to this practise, and state that it is not good. But these situations have been a reality in our world church - for better or for worse.

Johann: I agree.

I have personally witnessed much of what you have stated above.

People who object should state their objections. I will add one further aspect. The best objections come from involved people. People who are far away and working with 5th hand information, do not make good objectors. They often are not involved enough to know.

Gregory Matthews

[Johann]

Johann: I agree.

I have personally witnessed much of what you have stated above.

People who object should state their objections. I will add one further aspect. The best objections come from involved people. People who are far away and working with 5th hand information, do not make good objectors. They often are not involved enough to know.

Gregory Matthews

I should have added that for some years the North American Division had its own understanding of the Church Manual placed in special editions of the Manual for sale within the NAD. America missionaries in Africa would carry their Manual, while missionaries from other world fields would use other editions.

When we left for Africa we were told by a veteran missionary that the most important requirements for a missionary are:

1. Flexibility

2. Flexibility

3. Flexibility

[Richard Sherwin]

And if there is never repentance or restitution does the battle never end? Is the battle worth the carnage it leaves behind? What is ideal might never happen, in the meantime maybe we need to change our focus and try for peace even if justice is not served now, because we do know that someday it will be. In His time.

Jeanette,

I am by nature a peaceful individual, but I do not believe in obtaining peace at the price of sacrificing truth or allowing injustice to prevail. How can there be peace when wickedness still prevails? How can there be justice when there has been no repentance or restitution? A call for reformation and renewal would be more in keeping with the testimony of Scripture!

Sister

[runner4him]

And if there is never repentance or restitution does the battle never end? Is the battle worth the carnage it leaves behind? What is ideal might never happen, in the meantime maybe we need to change our focus and try for peace even if justice is not served now, because we do know that someday it will be. In His time.

Just a thought - IMO we need to believe in a miracle to end this whole mess. I believe peace can happen with repentance, restitution, and healing - that is my prayer. What is the purpose of any of this if we just pack up and accept things as they were without any change for the better?

Allegations began at 3abn with a public broadcast spread to the whole world.....allegations had surfaced long before that regarding victims.....people started to ask questions.....some were convicted a cleansing was needed and pressure came...a law suit was filed and you all know the rest of the story as it has unfolded with mistakes made resulting in pain on all sides and the cause of God has suffered as division has separated us.

Let us pray for repentance, restitution, healing, peace, unity. I believe in the power of prayer.

[sister]

And if there is never repentance or restitution does the battle never end? Is the battle worth the carnage it leaves behind? What is ideal might never happen, in the meantime maybe we need to change our focus and try for peace even if justice is not served now, because we do know that someday it will be. In His time.

As Seventh-day Adventists we understand that we live in a fallen world, a world captive to sin, a world were the Great Controversy between God and Satan is being played out before our very eyes. In the midst of this battle we are not pawns, but representatives of the God we serve. Christ has paid the ultimate price to ensure our freedom, but until He returns to lead His people home, we remain in the midst of battle. Does the battle ever end? Yes, with Christ’s triumphant return.

It is not only the Holy Spirit that woos human beings into the church, but Satan himself lures the unconverted, the wolves in sheep’s clothing, into the midst of the fold to run havoc among the sheep. In my opinion this is the situation with Danny Shelton and the SDA Church---a wolf is loose in the sheep pen. If this situation is allowed to continue, if those who know the truth remain silent, they have the blood of the innocent lambs---the future victims of Danny Shelton and those who follow in his footsteps---on their hands. At what price are we willing to silence our conscience? Where is the line drawn? Job security, the loss of reputation or following the good intentions of others that would value peace at any cost when it comes into conflict with individual conscience? This is a choice each of us must make for ourselves...

Sister

[PeacefulBe]

Jeanette,

I am by nature a peaceful individual, but I do not believe in obtaining peace at the price of sacrificing truth or allowing injustice to prevail. How can there be peace when wickedness still prevails? How can there be justice when there has been no repentance or restitution? A call for reformation and renewal would be more in keeping with the testimony of Scripture!

Sister

Sister,

I have absolutely no doubt that you are a peaceful individual. I have often seen myself in you (not meaning to offend here, btw) and can totally identify when you have become Mama Bear (as Snoopy dubbed me when Steffan threw nasty accusations out about beartrap one day), defending those you hold dear from attack. Recently I have even been ever so close to doing to you just what you attempted to do to Ian just now, when you Bob and Gailon leveled your crosshairs at FHB, who I care about every bit as much as I care about Beartrap. Mama Bear's claws came out and were ready to slash at you through my keyboard, but two far wiser members grabbed me and cautioned me to calm down. I did.

We do have a duty to fight injustice and strive for truth to be revealed. It is a noble duty indeed. A call for reformation and renewal is a good thing, but we can't force it to happen just like we can't force any other soul on this planet to grow in their relationship with God at our own pace. The folks running that whole Inquisition thing used unkind tactics to force reformation and renewal onto whole groups of people.

If you look at the evidence, the way Gailon and Bob are now leading this campaign, can you honestly say that they are working within the guidelines of the testimony of Scripture? Wouldn't you agree that their strategy has necessitated using Satan's tools rather than operating within the boundaries of God's principles and Christian ethics?

Pray about this, Sister. Try hard to look at the whole picture through God's eyes and see if what is going on is pleasing to Him, is something He can bless.

Jeanette