An Unauthorized History Of 3abn, Continues Options

[PrincessDrRe]

[Pickle]

Recently I have even been ever so close to doing to you just what you attempted to do to Ian just now, when you Bob and Gailon leveled your crosshairs at FHB, ....

If you will recall, FHB said, "As for the drinking of Kool-aid . . . the Pickle/Joy version is a rather deadly blend of 1 smidgen of truth, 3 gallons of untruth, mixed carefully in a vat of deception, anger, and pride." Thus he leveled his defamatory crosshairs at us, not vice-versa, making statements he clearly can't substantiate.

If you look at the evidence, the way Gailon and Bob are now leading this campaign, can you honestly say that they are working within the guidelines of the testimony of Scripture? Wouldn't you agree that their strategy has necessitated using Satan's tools rather than operating within the boundaries of God's principles and Christian ethics?

In what way? If Ronnie Shelton claimed about two days before Danny announced the pending lawsuit that they thought Gailon had gotten Greg fired from his teaching job, and Walt re-echoes that sentiment nearly a year later, how is it Satan's tool to ask what that means? How is it Satan's tool to ask if Walt felt the suit was justified because of what he thought we had done to his son? How is it Satan's tool to inquire how Walt got misled?

[Richard Sherwin]

What I have not seen on these boards, from either camp, is the love of Christ in the accusations, rumors etc. What I've seen is nastiness and hatred. Justice, yes but if we lose our own souls and turn people away from Christ in the process whose will are we doing? There seems to be plenty of wolves in sheep clothing in both camps. I'm not sure even the wolves can tell the difference anymore.

As Seventh-day Adventists we understand that we live in a fallen world, a world captive to sin, a world were the Great Controversy between God and Satan is being played out before our very eyes. In the midst of this battle we are not pawns, but representatives of the God we serve. Christ has paid the ultimate price to ensure our freedom, but until He returns to lead His people home, we remain in the midst of battle. Does the battle ever end? Yes, with Christ’s triumphant return.

It is not only the Holy Spirit that woos human beings into the church, but Satan himself lures the unconverted, the wolves in sheep’s clothing, into the midst of the fold to run havoc among the sheep. In my opinion this is the situation with Danny Shelton and the SDA Church---a wolf is loose in the sheep pen. If this situation is allowed to continue, if those who know the truth remain silent, they have the blood of the innocent lambs---the future victims of Danny Shelton and those who follow in his footsteps---on their hands. At what price are we willing to silence our conscience? Where is the line drawn? Job security, the loss of reputation or following the good intentions of others that would value peace at any cost when it comes into conflict with individual conscience? This is a choice each of us must make for ourselves...

Sister

[Pickle]

What I have not seen on these boards, from either camp, is the love of Christ in the accusations, rumors etc. What I've seen is nastiness and hatred. Justice, yes but if we lose our own souls and turn people away from Christ in the process whose will are we doing? There seems to be plenty of wolves in sheep clothing in both camps. I'm not sure even the wolves can tell the difference anymore.

It is a fact that such a perception has hindered resolution, since a high up 3ABNer told me long ago something akin to this.

[sister]

Sister,

I have absolutely no doubt that you are a peaceful individual. I have often seen myself in you (not meaning to offend here, btw) and can totally identify when you have become Mama Bear (as Snoopy dubbed me when Steffan threw nasty accusations out about beartrap one day), defending those you hold dear from attack. Recently I have even been ever so close to doing to you just what you attempted to do to Ian just now, when you Bob and Gailon leveled your crosshairs at FHB, who I care about every bit as much as I care about Beartrap. Mama Bear's claws came out and were ready to slash at you through my keyboard, but two far wiser members grabbed me and cautioned me to calm down. I did.

Jeanette

Jeanette,

I, as others here have expressed, was appalled at the new depth that was sunk to by the defenders of Danny Shelton. As Ozzie stated:

The suggestion of someone having a mental illness is one that is used by people who have run out of legitmate concerns, and then imply such a condition, in order to justify their attempts to make that person be seen as unreliable or of no account. you know, the gossip-mongers who have little to do, but want to make their story sound good?

It is a ploy to be-little people, but really strikes below the belt and is a tactic that I consider to be lower than a snake's belly.

Since I was the one responsible for subjecting the Fiscalini’s to this harassment by connecting their name with their story, I had placed myself in a position where I was honor bound to defend them. Jeanette, your picturesque comparison of us both being a “Mama Bear defending her cubs”, though poetic, draws a false conclusion. Where you see yourself as defending individuals that are near and dear to you, as a purely emotional response irregardless of their deservingness, I spoke out in defense based upon principle. It was my duty to make restitution to the Fiscalini’s for the damage that was inflicted upon them. The only way possible to do this was to publically defend their reputations from the false accusations that had been hurled upon them with as much vigor as I could muster.

Jeanette, you have tried to identify yourself with me and have chosen to see similarities between us based upon the false assumption that the motives for our actions are based upon the same premise. Where you have testified that you react emotionally first and considers the consequences of your actions later, I on the other hand am analytical by nature, reasoning from cause to effect. Such was my defense of Pastor and Mrs. Fiscalini.

Although you statements are intended to produce a specific response from me, your faulty logic is rendered ineffectual in achieving your desired results.

Sister

[princessdi]

Sister, you know I have admired you for your courage in speaking out this entire time. However, I has also been quite dissapointed in you during this same time, because of the way you have treated everyone around you, cinlduing those who agree with you. I don't do well with those who come here to "teach" us something, yet are too good, arrogant, whatever, to even have a decent conversation. You have visited LC and passed right through the main room, with little more than a hello, if that, moving on to PMs. That is, of course, you perogative as a member. I have more than once gotten the impression that BSDA is little more than a "tool" that you are using towards your desired end.

I believe us to be of the same temperment in that when there is a job to do we are focused on it until it gets done. However, a weakness for us is also to leave emotional dead bdies in the wake, only caring about the end result. Clueless to the damaged we have caused others. Often, the end is so nice that most don't bother to mention the cost. I had to learn to count the cost, and determined that thend do not justify the means if it means treating even one of God's children with the smallest disrespect.

There was absolutely no reason for you to repsond to PB in that way. It was mean and cruel, and frankly shows why there is a thread entitled, "Is the Cure Worse....Than the sickness".

I also really, really hate the corruption that seems to run so free within our church, but turning on everyone around you is not the way to solve or even approach it.

Jeanette,

I, as others here have expressed, was appalled at the new depth that was sunk to by the defenders of Danny Shelton. As Ozzie stated:
Since I was the one responsible for subjecting the Fiscalini’s to this harassment by connecting their name with their story, I had placed myself in a position where I was honor bound to defend them. Jeanette, your picturesque comparison of us both being a “Mama Bear defending her cubs”, though poetic, draws a false conclusion. Where you see yourself as defending individuals that are near and dear to you, as a purely emotional response irregardless of their deservingness, I spoke out in defense based upon principle. It was my duty to make restitution to the Fiscalini’s for the damage that was inflicted upon them. The only way possible to do this was to publically defend their reputations from the false accusations that had been hurled upon them with as much vigor as I could muster.

Jeanette, you have tried to identify yourself with me and have chosen to see similarities between us based upon the false assumption that the motives for our actions are based upon the same premise. Where you have testified that you react emotionally first and considers the consequences of your actions later, I on the other hand am analytical by nature, reasoning from cause to effect. Such was my defense of Pastor and Mrs. Fiscalini.

Although you statements are intended to produce a specific response from me, your faulty logic is rendered ineffectual in achieving your desired results.

Sister

[Ozzie]

Oh for pity's sake.

Well, maybe Ian is actually Dona, who may be Altheia/Cindy?

[Pickle]

Well, maybe Ian is actually Dona, who may be Altheia/Cindy?

There are other possibilities. See http://www.blacksda.com/forums/index.php?s...st&p=223187

This post has been edited by Pickle: Jan 29 2008, 10:39 PM

[Seraphim7]

Well, maybe Ian is actually Dona, who may be Altheia/Cindy?

Good evening.

Again please see :Anythings possible

[mystery- man]

I figured that I would get come feedback. Whie Johann has endorsed me, others have not. Here is one comment that I recieved:
At the risk of being misunderstood, I am going to debate that point:

1) In regard to the duties of church officers the Bible specifies the duties in general terms. No where does it say that every person holding a specific office shall be required to perform all of the duties of that office. The Bible does not prevent a local congregation from dividing up the duties of an office and give some duties to some persons who hold that office and give some other duties to other people who hold an office.

To be specific, there is no requirement that an Elder be able to perform all of any list of specified duties.

Let me give you an example: I pastored a chruch once at a time when the Conference President had a burden for the Elders to be able to perform all of the duties on a list of his. Some of us objected to that. So, he went around we who were his pastors and he sent a letter to all of our local church leaders telling them what he wanted in regard to Elders.

One of my Elders could not read the English language, or any other language, due to a lack of education. He had served as an Elder for many years and we simply did not give him duties for which he was not qualilfied. Because of the letter that came from the Conference President that congregation voted not to have any Elders.

Let me give you another example: There are some large churches that have ordained SDA pastors as members of the congregation who are not part of the pastoral staff. The church I attend has four (4) such ordained SDA pastors who are not employed by the Conference and therefore are not on the pastoral staff. It is within denominational guidelines for that congregation to elect these people as local Elders and not give them specific duties.

2) Others have mentioned the CHURCH MANUAL. Folks, that is only a guideline. Divisons have the right to make adjustments. So do Conferences. Exceptons may be granted and are granted. Some provisions of the CHURCH MANUAL are in confllict with other provisions. In such situations one of the provisions has to give.

3) As to a congregation placing a non-SDA in a leadership positon, that should be very carefully done and likely not often. But, no rule can cover every possibility. Even in this there can be exceptions. I am aware of situations where this has worked well.

I have tried and tried to find the model of the current church system in the Bible and cannot find it. The system we have now is one where each church has a king and that king dictates at the peril of those who do not submit. Most pastors Lord over the members and use the bully pulpit to control beat and scoll the members if they get out of line. Often anyone that does not agree with them is an enemy of God. Actually in many ways 3ABN is following the lead of the church. I am not anti- adventist but the truth needs to be told. I grew up as an Adventist and I can tell you stories of Pastors sleeping with the members and the like. Most Pastors that do that simply get a slap on the wrist and are sent to more frutile ground to continue their habits. I think the above post is interesting because he talks about Divisions and Conferences and their power to change things. The Bible does indeed give the definition of a Elder (male) but of course the church or Conference or Divisions in session can change that I forgot.

[Seraphim7]

I have tried and tried to find the model of the current church system in the Bible and cannot find it. The system we have now is one where each church has a king and that king dictates at the peril of those who do not submit. Most pastors Lord over the members and use the bully pulpit to control beat and scoll the members if they get out of line. Often anyone that does not agree with them is an enemy of God. Actually in many ways 3ABN is following the lead of the church. I am not anti- adventist but the truth needs to be told. I grew up as an Adventist and I can tell you stories of Pastors sleeping with the members and the like. Most Pastors that do that simply get a slap on the wrist and are sent to more frutile ground to continue their habits. I think the above post is interesting because he talks about Divisions and Conferences and their power to change things. The Bible does indeed give the definition of a Elder (male) but of course the church or Conference or Divisions in session can change that I forgot.

Um no... that is not the normal practice in black churches, at least not here on the East coast. Yes, there are some bad apples in every barrel however it is not the norm in black churches conference wide.

[Green Cochoa]

Sister, I realize this is your thread. I'm saddened to see that you haven't realized that there is a trend on these threads towards peace. More and more members are seeing the need to lay aside the rancor and meanspiritedness and embrace each other's value in Christ. I know this is hard when one is so invested on a specific course, but it is the only way we can hope to move towards anything that resembles true victory.

Ian has done a wonderful job, IMO, of moving away from anger and devisiveness and towards carefully constructed posts that illuminate and present a separate perspective. Why does that need to be such a threat as to spur you and some others on to this "outing"?

You have forgotten that Ian has already revealed the truth..

Jeanette

Are you practicing here that which you are advocating? Your post seems more loaded with emotions than I see correspondence to in that to which you are reacting. I agree with your basic premise of wanting to see more kindness here on the forum, but such a form of kindness as you have offered above does not set the example that you might be like to be proud of. In any case, I am one juror who is not swayed by the emotional rhetoric so much as the factual logic.

Jeanette,

I am by nature a peaceful individual, but I do not believe in obtaining peace at the price of sacrificing truth or allowing injustice to prevail. How can there be peace when wickedness still prevails? How can there be justice when there has been no repentance or restitution? A call for reformation and renewal would be more in keeping with the testimony of Scripture!

Sister

I'm in harmony with this thought.

When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn. (Proverbs 29:2, KJV)

Sister,

I have absolutely no doubt that you are a peaceful individual. I have often seen myself in you (not meaning to offend here, btw) and can totally identify when you have become Mama Bear (as Snoopy dubbed me when Steffan threw nasty accusations out about beartrap one day), defending those you hold dear from attack. Recently I have even been ever so close to doing to you just what you attempted to do to Ian just now, when you Bob and Gailon leveled your crosshairs at FHB, who I care about every bit as much as I care about Beartrap. Mama Bear's claws came out and were ready to slash at you through my keyboard, but two far wiser members grabbed me and cautioned me to calm down. I did.

We do have a duty to fight injustice and strive for truth to be revealed. It is a noble duty indeed. A call for reformation and renewal is a good thing, but we can't force it to happen just like we can't force any other soul on this planet to grow in their relationship with God at our own pace. The folks running that whole Inquisition thing used unkind tactics to force reformation and renewal onto whole groups of people.

If you look at the evidence, the way Gailon and Bob are now leading this campaign, can you honestly say that they are working within the guidelines of the testimony of Scripture? Wouldn't you agree that their strategy has necessitated using Satan's tools rather than operating within the boundaries of God's principles and Christian ethics?

Pray about this, Sister. Try hard to look at the whole picture through God's eyes and see if what is going on is pleasing to Him, is something He can bless.

Jeanette

Sister, you know I have admired you for your courage in speaking out this entire time. However, I has also been quite dissapointed in you during this same time, because of the way you have treated everyone around you, cinlduing those who agree with you. I don't do well with those who come here to "teach" us something, yet are too good, arrogant, whatever, to even have a decent conversation. You have visited LC and passed right through the main room, with little more than a hello, if that, moving on to PMs. That is, of course, you perogative as a member. I have more than once gotten the impression that BSDA is little more than a "tool" that you are using towards your desired end.

I believe us to be of the same temperment in that when there is a job to do we are focused on it until it gets done. However, a weakness for us is also to leave emotional dead bdies in the wake, only caring about the end result. Clueless to the damaged we have caused others. Often, the end is so nice that most don't bother to mention the cost. I had to learn to count the cost, and determined that thend do not justify the means if it means treating even one of God's children with the smallest disrespect.

There was absolutely no reason for you to repsond to PB in that way. It was mean and cruel, and frankly shows why there is a thread entitled, "Is the Cure Worse....Than the sickness".

I also really, really hate the corruption that seems to run so free within our church, but turning on everyone around you is not the way to solve or even approach it.

To both of you, I would like to respond with a personal testimony:

I was a member of a church in which one man divorced his wife, claiming adultery. Within a day or two of his divorce becoming legal (man's laws), he had remarried. His former wife asserted her innocence from the very beginning. Because this is just the sort of thing which the Bible speaks of in terms of church discipline, the Matthew 18 principle was followed. The man, however, was unrepentant. It finally came to a decision by the church board. A vote was taken as to whether or not to disfellowship him.

The man was well-liked, and the meeting was contentious. A representative from the conference was in attendance to help chair the meeting. Many of the man's friends had showed up to help sway the vote in his direction. Ellen White spoke of situations like this in which a church might face a decision. She said that in moral matters as this, if the church vote did not uphold the right, and if no disciplinary action were taken, that she saw as it were a black cloud hovering over that church from then on, and the blessing of God withheld.

Some of us, as a result, feared that the wrong decision would bring such a dark cloud over us. We prayed. The vote was taken by secret ballot. The votes were counted carefully by the designated ones. He was disfellowshiped.

Immediately, several of his friends asked to have their names removed from the church books. These were angry that the man had been disfellowshiped. They had not been regular attendees to the church services. Some were working on the Sabbath at times already. This was but the final straw for them. Our church had just come through a time of shaking, and some had been sifted out.

God blessed. In the few short years which followed, we saw other Adventist families move in to the small town and fill the vacancies. A new church was started beside the first, with worship services in another language. Many new members came into the church, and those who remained from the previous group were kind, considerate, and warmly welcomed the newcomers, regardless of their appearance, the smell of smoke on their breath, or other hindrances which have caused many to feel rejection in other places.

The man, with his new wife, continued to attend church, though not permitted to lead. A few years later, another pastor came to our church. He heard the story of what had happened. He felt that the man had been wrongly chastised, and that he should be allowed back in on the profession of faith (instead of repentance and rebaptism). He circulated to the various members' homes, persuading each individually. Finally, by his continual pushing of his "grace and mercy" philosophy, he accomplished what he had set out to. In the end, the man was never repentant. Soon after becoming a "member" again, he transferred to another church, a larger one, which knew nothing of his history. Having welcomed him back into membership did not heal the hurts from the past, and only time and eternity will tell if it did more bad than good.

The Bible is clear that we must deal with the sins in the camp decisively. Jesus, too, uttered some scathing rebukes. Yes, there were tears in His eyes. But those tears did not stop the words! We have a duty to perform.

Writing about the Laodicean church, and referencing the story of Elijah on Mount Carmel, Mrs. White said:

What astonishing deception and fearful blindness had, like a dark cloud, covered Israel. This blindness and apostasy had not closed about them suddenly, but it had come upon them gradually, as they had not heeded the word of reproof and warning which the Lord had sent to them because of their pride and their sins. They, in this fearful crisis, in the presence of the idolatrous priests and the apostate king, remain neutral. If God abhors one sin above another, of which his people are guilty, it is of doing nothing in a case of emergency. Indifference or neutrality in a religious crisis is regarded of God as a grievous crime; and equal to the very worst type of hostility against God. {RH, September 30, 1873 par. 9}

What was the "emergency"? It was something which had lasted for YEARS. Elijah, however, did not relent until a decided change was made. The Bible speaks of some in the last days coming in the spirit of Elijah.

Blessings,

Greenie.

[YogusBearus]

Sister, you know I have admired you for your courage in speaking out this entire time. However, I has also been quite dissapointed in you during this same time, because of the way you have treated everyone around you, cinlduing those who agree with you. I don't do well with those who come here to "teach" us something, yet are too good, arrogant, whatever, to even have a decent conversation. You have visited LC and passed right through the main room, with little more than a hello, if that, moving on to PMs. That is, of course, you perogative as a member. I have more than once gotten the impression that BSDA is little more than a "tool" that you are using towards your desired end.

LOL Di. Ya think?

-bear

[sister]

Sister, you know I have admired you for your courage in speaking out this entire time. However, I has also been quite dissapointed in you during this same time, because of the way you have treated everyone around you, cinlduing those who agree with you. I don't do well with those who come here to "teach" us something, yet are too good, arrogant, whatever, to even have a decent conversation. You have visited LC and passed right through the main room, with little more than a hello, if that, moving on to PMs. That is, of course, you perogative as a member. I have more than once gotten the impression that BSDA is little more than a "tool" that you are using towards your desired end.

I believe us to be of the same temperment in that when there is a job to do we are focused on it until it gets done. However, a weakness for us is also to leave emotional dead bdies in the wake, only caring about the end result. Clueless to the damaged we have caused others. Often, the end is so nice that most don't bother to mention the cost. I had to learn to count the cost, and determined that thend do not justify the means if it means treating even one of God's children with the smallest disrespect.

There was absolutely no reason for you to repsond to PB in that way. It was mean and cruel, and frankly shows why there is a thread entitled, "Is the Cure Worse....Than the sickness".

I also really, really hate the corruption that seems to run so free within our church, but turning on everyone around you is not the way to solve or even approach it.

PrincessDi,

I, too, have always admired you for the fairness you have shown in your part as an administrator at BSDA. That you have become disappointed in me does give me reason to pause. Part of the reason I have not had the opportunity to fellowship with other members to the degree that I would have preferred is because of my speaking out in regard to the situation at 3ABN. What has allowed me to speak so frankly publically, is unfortunately what has kept me from developing the friendships here that I would desire. Unlike others, I have had to remain on my guard, not allowing myself to share personal information that could lead to my identity. If it were discovered who I am, it would not only effect me, but also my family. Taking that risk on my own behalf is one thing, when it involves those I love, it becomes another matter all together. It is for this reason that I have avoided the LC. There are times that I have been there and in the natural flow of conversation innocent questions have arisen which I am unable to answer to ensure my identity remains protected. I found it easier to avoid this situation by staying away from the LC. The positive aspect of this decision is that I am still able to testify concerning Danny Shelton and 3ABN, the negative aspect is that I am the loser when it comes to enjoying the fellowship that I would desire at BSDA.

I look forward to the day when “Sister” disappears and I can return here as myself, completely disassociated from this persona, and have the freedom to interact as I would choose rather than be hindered by the burden associated with the freedom she has to write here.

As to the impression that BSDA is little more than a “tool” that I am using toward a desired end. I am sorry that you feel that way, but I can understand the reasoning behind your statement. Were our positions reversed, perhaps we would both feel the same way.

I do hate the corruption that I have seen in the church and found echoed in certain posts on the 3ABN forum and you are correct we both are of the same temperament in focusing our attention on a task until it is completed. If I had hurt individuals in the process, I am sorry. I, too, have been hurt in this process, not only by the self-imposed buffer I have placed upon myself to guard my identity, thus having to sacrifice the personal pleasure of the fellowship I desire, but by the constant insults and false accusations I have suffered from those defending Danny Shelton.

I started writing “An Unauthorized History of 3ABN” nearly two years ago. I never thought it would continue this long. I had hoped that everything would be settled long before now. Unfortunately, my optimistic viewpoint has been proven to be faulty. Personally, my desire is to reach an end to this drama as soon as possible.

As to my response to PB, I will not attempt to defend it, but I will offer a brief explanation. To do so would require sharing information outside the scope of what is posted on BSDA about Jeanette, although I hesitate to do so and risk the possibility of being further misunderstood, I will tread carefully. I have known the identity of Jeanette for a long time. Since she has recently begun ending her posts with her actual name, I will refer to her as Jeanette rather than PB. Jeanette has been playing both sides of the 3ABN issue for a long time, networking herself with everyone possible. In the course of her desire to become a self-appointed “peace maker”, selected information has been purposefully “leaked” to her in order to ensure it becomes publicly or passed on to the other side. I realize that makes her little more than a pawn in a larger “game”, but my frustration with this and other actions on her part which I choose not to mention here, personally caused me great frustration. Her last post to me, was merely the straw that broke the camel’s back.

In conclusion, if I gave the impression that I was turning against everyone in my zeal to protect the further abuse of innocent victims of Danny Shelton, I am sorry. Not that I attempted to stop further abuse, but that in doing so I have alienated you and others in the process.

Sister

[Ian]

Good Morning Sister,

A couple of thoughts.

What happened to defending the Fiscalini's by backing up what you claimed with eyewitness confirmations or evidence, or documenting the rest of your story?

Can you understand how that might appear more credible then explaining why you can't be friendly or fellowship with others because you must keep your ID secret at all costs, especially after outing and attempting to out all kinds of others?


Did it occur to you that others might have the same concerns about their own privacy?

The golden rule seems sadly lacking in your take, and actions here.

You claim a desire to stop abuse and yet imo your post here is even more unkind and abusive to Jeanette than the previous one.

I don't think it was necessary to attempt to trash her before the entire forum and public.

Surely you could have stopped at explaining you had written in frustration and sent he rest to Di in a pm if you felt you had to explain further?


Yes, you have probably caused some damage here, and some hurt, but at what cost?

The ends can never justify the mains.

Sadly, I think in the long run you are hurting yourself more than any other.

Perhaps if we could all put Christ first, the rest wouldn't be so difficult?

This post has been edited by Ian: Jan 31 2008, 03:18 AM