The Dreams & Visions Concerning 3abn, A short letter from Barbara Kerr Options

[inga]

Thank you so much for this post, Saharafan.

You effectively expressed my thoughts on the matter, including that there is not quite enough evidence to reach a final conclusion on the dreams that Barbara shared. I agree it is best just not to place too much importanc on them.

"DREAMS & VISIONS" : Some selected quotations from sister White.

(Note of explanation: I don't want to suggest that I believe that the friend of sister Barbara is a false prophet, this is not at all true! I love and respect her as my sister in the Lord, and I would love to get to know her personally, learn more about her experience and fellowship with her. I am also not really 100 % convinced that her dreams and auditions are NOT from the Lord, and I want to be careful. However, based on the information available in Barbara's first posting, it seems to me personally as very likely that her friend has been deceived. But that little information that sister Barbara told us is NOT really enough for me to come to a final conclusion for myself, without knowing the sister, and the whole situation and context. As of now, I therefore don't ascribe any importance to these revelations at all, I don't want to be influenced by them in any way. The following quotations from Ellen White only serve the single purpose to show that this possibility exists, that Satan CAN give dreams to upright and godly Christians; at least, sister White does NOT critize the character, life or faith of those believers that have received visions or dreams and that she refered to in those statements; however, she warns them (and us) not to follow those dreams and revelations, since they didn't come from God. Emphasis in the quotations is mine.)
Please read also SELECTED MESSAGES Book 2 Chapter 11, and perhaps other chapters like 5, 8, 9, 10 etc.

As a consequence, it is NOT enough to simply examine the charakter, lifestile and acts, the "fruits" of the person receiving a dream or vision, or a "message from God", and her confession and practice of her faith; it is equaly important to evaluate and examine the message given itself, the contents of the dream or vision, based on the Bible.
If this test should fail, it is the message that has to be rejected and not the person receiving it who has simply been a victim of another satanic attack of deception. But without a sound application of this test, no message should be accepted as coming from God and acted upon; this would be very dangeous.

Hope this helps.

[Clay]

can anyone give an example of a false dream or visions.... a legitimate one I mean? I understand what egw wrote, but then again she had visions didn't she.... some of what she saw is not consistent with the bible so then they were also false is that what you are comfortable saying?

[PrincessDrRe]

Just a quick statement - and I'll go back into lerk mode on this thread....

Does anyone now see why I said this woman/her statements/her "dream" was getting "cut up"???

If not...then carry on! If so..then still....carry on!

[inga]

can anyone give an example of a false dream or visions.... a legitimate one I mean? I understand what egw wrote, but then again she had visions didn't she.... some of what she saw is not consistent with the bible so then they were also false is that what you are comfortable saying?

You say that some of what Ellen White saw "is not consistent with the Bible?"

You must know some things I haven't run across in the last 50 years. (And, yes, I'm familiar with the anti-Ellen sites out there ... just haven't visited them lately.)

My point re the original dreams shared was not that they were necessarily false, but that by all indicators I know, they are not consistent with God's messages. My further concern is that we not accept anything of supernatural character to be of God just because we deem the person(s) involved to be sincere Christians.

The only thing anywhere near similar in Ellen White's visions was the "shut door" vision. I don't doubt her vision and it's being from God. However, I believe the original interpretation of the vision was not altogether accurate. And Ellen and the church revised their view of what the vision meant. She did not claim to be infallible, after all.

[PrincessDrRe]

You say that some of what Ellen White saw "is not consistent with the Bible?"

You must know some things I haven't run across in the last 50 years. (And, yes, I'm familiar with the anti-Ellen sites out there ... just haven't visited them lately.)

My point re the original dreams shared was not that they were necessarily false, but that by all indicators I know, they are not consistent with God's messages. My further concern is that we not accept anything of supernatural character to be of God just because we deem the person(s) involved to be sincere Christians.

The only thing anywhere near similar in Ellen White's visions was the "shut door" vision. I don't doubt her vision and it's being from God. However, I believe the original interpretation of the vision was not altogether accurate. And Ellen and the church revised their view of what the vision meant. She did not claim to be infallible, after all.

Had to come in on this just to say this little thang...then for real - back in lurk mode on this thread....

The fact that my roomie (after working in the AD EG White Archives for one year) found several "pictures/drawings" of EG White "visions/dreams" - (such as her "Vision of Jesus") says a whole lot to me....

I personally don't think that a "vision of Jesus" has been given to anyone living during this time...so a picture would not be drawn and used as an example of "what we think he looks like"....

JMO!

Fa real - back on lurk mode.....

[saharafan]

can anyone give an example of a false dream or visions.... a legitimate one I mean? I understand what egw wrote, but then again she had visions didn't she.... some of what she saw is not consistent with the bible so then they were also false is that what you are comfortable saying?

Clay,
I would be very interested to learn more about those "inconsistencies" that you found comparing Ellen White's writings with the Bible. Actually, so far I personally didn't find any seeming contradictions etc. that couldn't be resolved.
I am quite sure, for any kind or type of seeming contradiction or inconsistency between her writings and the Bible, I could show you a similar one within the Bible, between different authors of the Bible.

This whole question of inconsistencies within or between inspired books all finally comes down to two issues:
1) How divine inspiration really and actually works;
2) And the question, or principles, of hermeneutics, of interpretation, taking into consideration the original languages, and especially the textual, historical, cultural, and religious contexts.

But I would suggest, if you want to discuss this subject, to do that in another forum, not in this one about 3ABN.
There are several good books dealing with these two issues as well as books responding to questions and often made claims to that kind of inconsitencies concerning Ellen White that you mentioned. If you want to have some recommendations, feel free to contact me. You should also find some good information on some websites like http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/issues.asp; http://www.ellenwhitedefend.com; http://www.ellengwhite.info

Concerning your other question, just go to Google and type in "Jeanine Sautron". She's one of the most striking examples of a recipient of "false dreams and visions" within our Adventist church of the last 20 years. She was an Adventist lady living in France who claimed to be the successor of Ellen White (as many others did before her) and supposedly received many visions. She had a lot of supporters and followers and did a lot of time-setting. She finally was disfellowshipped. Another example would be that famous guy from Waco, Texas.
However, there are plenty of additional lesser known examples. I would recomend you to take a look at the following website: http://www.ellenwhitedefend.com/Another-Prophet.htm

By the way, the GC receives every year plenty of reports of "visions and dreams" of Adventists who sincerely belive that God gave them a message for the church. I am not sure which department takes care of that and examines those claims but I would guess either the Biblical Research Institute or the White Estate or the Ministerial Assiciaton should at least know about it.

Last year there was the story of Soo that made the round, the Laotian sister who claims that she was miraculously heald of cancer and received several visions of an angel who gave her messages for several leading Adventist evangelists as well as unclear prophecy of future events. She predicted that "the whole world will be reached with the gospel, the Sunday Law will come 'after 2005' and Christ will come soon". Now, I honestly am not really sure what to think about her visions. I certainly do not doubt her love for the Savior and her Christian character. But I can imagine that Satan, the enemy of the true Spirit of Prophecy, is just trying to imitate this gift as much as possible, "revealing" messages that either just repeat already well known Bible truths, or are not immediately and easily discerned as not being from God. By this, he wants to discredit and render non-effective any true prophetic gift like the testimonies of sister White as well as any possible future true prophets or "tue" visions and dreams that God might want to send us, including the final fulfillment of Joel 2:28-29.

I also want to recommend you to read the very interesting article by J. R. Spangler, “The Gift of Prophecy and ‘Thought Voices,’” in Ministry magazine from June 1986; if you have already the DJVU browser plugin installed you can access it directly from: http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/MIN/...6-06/index.djvu
If not, this link will lead you to the site were you can download the plugin and also access the Ministry issue: http://www.adventistarchives.org/doc_info.asp?DocID=6658

I am just briefly quoting two of his findings:

The phenomenon confronting the church
The current spate of messages seems to be characterized by the following:
1. The individuals I am acquainted with who have been connected with this phenomenon are not wild-eyed fanatics. This may not be true of all who claim to be messengers, but those whom I know are sincere, dedicated Christians.
2. The purported messages come via three major methods of communication: dreams, visions, and "thought voices." (Some claim to have received a message on only one occasion; others claim multiple communications.)
...

By the way, in those quotations of Ellen White on "dreams & visions" that I posted before, there was a reference to "Anna Phillips" who had received visions that Ellen White declared as "false". Elder Spangler in his article states the following about her:

The above quotations dealt with the Anna Phillips problem. Anna Phillips was sincerely misguided into believing she was having visions from God. Fortunately, when she received Ellen White's counsel, she accepted it, and her supposed visions immediately stopped. She became a faithful Bible worker and served the church well for many years.

This post has been edited by saharafan: Aug 21 2006, 04:51 PM

[awesumtenor]

okay but let's also be honest..... SHE SHOULD HAVE LEFT him..... yeah, I said it... the more I read about this dude, I am amazed that she stayed as long as she did.... again she should have left him....

now whut?

Not as easy as it looks from our perspective... Danny being the megalomaniac and manipulator that he is would use fear and guilt and any other tool at his disposal to build a prison around Linda's mind where she couldn't walk away... it's like the experiments zoologists do with animals. put an animal in a cage and over time the idea of the limitation presented by the cage gets to the animal such that if the walls were removed, for a time the anilmal would continue to pace within the bounds of what used to be the cage and go no further.

In His service,
Mr. J

[Clay]

Not as easy as it looks from our perspective... Danny being the megalomaniac and manipulator that he is would use fear and guilt and any other tool at his disposal to build a prison around Linda's mind where she couldn't walk away... it's like the experiments zoologists do with animals. put an animal in a cage and over time the idea of the limitation presented by the cage gets to the animal such that if the walls were removed, for a time the anilmal would continue to pace within the bounds of what used to be the cage and go no further.

In His service,
Mr. J

i know it is easier said than done.... and had he not thrown her out she would more than likely still be there.... my point was simply after all we have read about him..... she should have left that dude in the dust years ago.....

[Clay]

Clay,
I would be very interested to learn more about those "inconsistencies" that you found comparing Ellen White's writings with the Bible. Actually, so far I personally didn't find any seeming contradictions etc. that couldn't be resolved.
I am quite sure, for any kind or type of seeming contradiction or inconsistency between her writings and the Bible, I could show you a similar one within the Bible, between different authors of the Bible.

In the creation narrative, in the story of the crucifixion egw fills in the blanks where the bible is silent....

The bible does not mention anything about angels visiting Adam and Eve and telling them about Lucifer and to be wary... the bible says nothing about demons in human form taunting Jesus during the crucifixion......

[PrincessDrRe]

Clay,
I would be very interested to learn more about those "inconsistencies" that you found comparing Ellen White's writings with the Bible. Actually, so far I personally didn't find any seeming contradictions etc. that couldn't be resolved.
I am quite sure, for any kind or type of seeming contradiction or inconsistency between her writings and the Bible, I could show you a similar one within the Bible, between different authors of the Bible.

This whole question of inconsistencies within or between inspired books all finally comes down to two issues:
1) How divine inspiration really and actually works;
2) And the question, or principles, of hermeneutics, of interpretation, taking into consideration the original languages, and especially the textual, historical, cultural, and religious contexts.

I now I said I was "lurkin"...but here I go again.

There are "many" inconsistencies! One of the Biggest "inconsistencies" that I can think of is the EG White definition of:
1 - "amalgamation of man and beast" (the discussion of a man/beast that walks the face of the earth. This has been loosely interpreted to be the "African-American/Black" race by many. I just find this a hot mess as no animal and man can lie together and "procreate".....)
Next we have.....
2 - The EG White quote/"misquote" that speaks of Vegetarian/Vegans having a "higher spirituality" than that of Meat Eaters.
Oh...and.....
3 - The fact that "black pepper" doesn't "digest" and can form a ball in the stomach? Jethro Klauss also said this - I should have a tumor the size of a small nation if this is so.....

Now...fa real - (seriously!) Back in lurk mode....

[Ralph]

okay but let's also be honest..... SHE SHOULD HAVE LEFT him..... yeah, I said it... the more I read about this dude, I am amazed that she stayed as long as she did.... again she should have left him....

People who are in a healthy relationship have difficulty in wrapping their minds around the thought that any woman would stay in an abusive home.

BUT for the woman who is in this kind of a home, it is far different. We call it "Battered Wife Syndrome" -- and that doesn't necessarily mean that the woman has been physically battered. But psychologically, her value of herself is lowered. She is not sure of herself and often believes the negative things that her husband has pounded into her over the years. A woman who comes from a well-to-do home has a far harder time of leaving than a woman who lives in a chicken coop.

Think of all that Linda had to lose if she left. -- her husband, her home, the work that she loved and the knowledge that family members (and friends from around the world) may not believe her. That is tough. Probably only women who have gone through such an experience have the slightest idea of what I am talking about.

I have seen women go back time after time, and it makes me so frustrated although I intellectually understand why they do it. Fortunately for Linda, there was no coming back.

[inga]

I now I said I was "lurkin"...but here I go again.
<snip>
3 - The fact that "black pepper" doesn't "digest" and can form a ball in the stomach? Jethro Klauss also said this - I should have a tumor the size of a small nation if this is so.....

That's as creative as some of the stories Dan puts out!
I've not run across that one by the Ellen I've read. Perhaps you can supply the source?

(All I've read is that pepper and other strong spices inflame the delicate linings of the stomach and desensitize the taste buds so that one is unable to appreciate more delicate flavors -- the latter not difficult to verify by casual observation.)

[saharafan]

In the creation narrative, in the story of the crucifixion egw fills in the blanks where the bible is silent....

The bible does not mention anything about angels visiting Adam and Eve and telling them about Lucifer and to be wary... the bible says nothing about demons in human form taunting Jesus during the crucifixion......

To be honest, I wouldn't consider those examples that you mentioned as "inconsistencies". You said it perfectly yourself, she "fills in the blanks where the Bible is silent". I don't have any problem with this statement, actually I would be very surprised if a true prophet would NOT give some new additonal information that cannot be found in the Bible but doesn't contradict any biblical principles and statements. Everything else would just be a mere repetition of the biblical text and message, and for that we don't need a prophet.

If God gave Ellen very detailed visions about the creation and even what happened before the creation in heaven, of the fall, the flood, the whole story of redemption etc. etc., and also about the various scenes and events of the life of Christ, including certainly the cruxifiction, I am not surprised that she wrote down what she saw in vision. And she claims to have received such visions.

She received over 2000 (two thousand) visions and dreams during her live and some of them took several hours. So I would expect to find in her writings some additional information even about biblical stories and events that will help the true believers during the end time crisis and for the world evangelisation. And her books have definitely had (and still have) a major impact on many souls who accept(ed) Christ or devellope(d) a much deeper personal relationship with Him because they read "Desire of Ages" etc.

This could also be described with the term "progressive revelation". In the Bible you also find John in his Gospel reporting many deeds and sayings of Christ which cannot be found in the synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Marc, Luke). And John wrote several decades after the other three writers, at a time when very few people were still alive who knew Jesus personally. Christians at his time needed important information that was not provided by the other books already existing at that time. So he "fills in the blanks where the other Gospel writers are silent".
Paul even claims, he has received his Gospel in vision directly from Christ himself. Galatians 1:11-12. He is not depending on the apostels and desciples of Jesus for his teachings, he was taught by Christ personally in visions. In some of his letters we find very valuable information which would not be availlable to us if we had only the four Gospels.

However, I certainly would have a problem if Ellen White would say something which would clearly contradict the Bible, but until now I couldn't find anything like that in her writings.

By the way, sister White was often asked for her opinion concerning various topics, including explanation of certain Bible texts and difficult theological questions, and many times she clearly responded, "I have received no information from God about this matter." She did not phantasize and invent stories. If you find in her writings descriptions of historical and especially biblical events that give more information than the original sources (e.g. the Bible), than you can be sure she has received this additional information from God, either directly in vision, or through divine guidance when using other writings. (Sometimes, like in Desire of Ages and Acts of the Apostels, she partly used also material from other contemporary Christian authors, but not without qualification; the Holy Spirit guided her like He guided Luke (Luke 1:1-4) in the choice of what material to use and what not. You can also assume that she has actually seen in vision much of what is described in that material that she copied from those other authors.) That's why you can trust her writings. 2. Timothy 3:16-17 and 2. Peter 1:19-21 can certainly also be applied to her writings.

Actually, in those two examples that you mentioned (creation story, cruxifiction), the way she described those events sounds quite logical to me. Any way, I am thankfull for this additional information on those events that helps me to understand God, His character, the story of redemption, the sacrifice of Jesus and the spiritual war in this world much better and deeper, and I praise God for that.

[saharafan]

I now I said I was "lurkin"...but here I go again.

There are "many" inconsistencies! One of the Biggest "inconsistencies" that I can think of is the EG White definition of:
1 - "amalgamation of man and beast" (the discussion of a man/beast that walks the face of the earth. This has been loosely interpreted to be the "African-American/Black" race by many. I just find this a hot mess as no animal and man can lie together and "procreate".....)
Next we have.....
2 - The EG White quote/"misquote" that speaks of Vegetarian/Vegans having a "higher spirituality" than that of Meat Eaters.
Oh...and.....
3 - The fact that "black pepper" doesn't "digest" and can form a ball in the stomach? Jethro Klauss also said this - I should have a tumor the size of a small nation if this is so.....

Now...fa real - (seriously!) Back in lurk mode....

Dear Princess
In these three "inconsistencies" that you mentioned, I cannot see any real inconsistency with the Bible, all three don't have anything to do with the Bible, only with your own personal perception, preference and prejudice.

1) Concerning the "Amalgamation" issue: Please read the statements on the following website:
http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/faq-unus...sual-section-c1
or even better explained and more in dept: http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/amalg.html
In short: It has nothing to do with amalgamation between man and beast, but "amalgamation of man and [of] beast". Before the flood, the "amalgamation of man" that she most probably refers to was the mingling in unholy marriages of the "sons of God" with the "daughters of man" (Genesis 6:1-2), the intermarriages of the children of Seth with those of Cain. This is the most probable and reasonable explanation of her first statement.
Her second "amalgamation of man and [of] beast" statement (there are only two), about "amalgamation" taking place after the flood until today, refers most probably and even more clearly in a similar sense to the "amalgamation" through marriages between persons of different human races (which, by the way, is not considered a sin in that second statement, contrary to the first one where it refered to marriages between believers and unbelievers resulting in apostasy and sin), and "amalgamation" among different species of animals.

Certainly, it is also possible to understand these two references in a different, much more problematic way, but the same principles that we use for interpreting the Scripture should also be used when interpreting other extra-canonical inspired writings like those of Ellen White. We need to interprete "problematic" passages, wether in the Bible or in Ellen White's writings, in the light of, and in harmony with, other related passages on the same basic subject that are clear and more easily understood, and also with logical reasoning where applicable.
Otherwise, you could find similar difficult statements in the Bible, a famous one for example, related to those amalgamation statements from sister White, the reference to the "sons of God" marrying the "daughters of men"; many evangelicals still believe this is about angels marrying human women. Or take Jesus' statement to the thief on the cross in Luke 23:43, "Today you will be with me in paradise"; Paul's difficult statements concerning the law and the Sabbath in Galatians 3:24-25; Colossians 2:14-16 etc. All these texts have several ways how they can be interpreted and understood, and it depends on our hermeneutic principles AND on our willingness to approach the text neutraly but with the desire to harmonize seeming contradictions with other clear passages on the same subject, if this is possible without twisting and squeezing the text. Our approach to the writings of Ellen White should be the same.

By the way, if that picture you use in this forum is an accurate picture of yourself, maybe your problem is perhaps that you yourself are a product of an "amalgamation of man and beast"?

2) and 3) I would need to know the exact reference to those statements you indicated that bother you so much. It would be difficult for me to deal with them without being able to read what she actually said, within its context. Also, I am not a medical doctor or nutritionist, who could certainly iluminate us on those statements, especially concerning the "pepper".
However, I think that your real problem simply is that you just love to eat pepper and meat (as Ellen White herself did by the way, an it was really difficult for her to give it up after she had received the health reform vision!). But I can comfort you, you are not alone; all throughout history many people were upset when prophets of God called upon them to give up certain things or sins they loved and to undergo reformation... Many prophets even died an early death because of that.

[Denny]

"Her second "amalgamation of man and [of] beast" statement (there are only two), about "amalgamation" taking place after the flood until today, refers most probably and even more clearly in a similar sense to the "amalgamation" through marriages between persons of different human races (which, by the way, is not considered a sin in that second statement, contrary to the first one where it refered to marriages between believers and unbelievers resulting in apostasy and sin), and "amalgamation" among different species of animals."

There are no 'different human races'. Such thinking keeps the R word alive and happy