The Dreams & Visions Concerning 3abn, A short letter from Barbara Kerr Options

[Johann]

H'mm, DrRe, are you also working on a PhD in Physiology that you write with such authority on the subject? (I.e. why should I believe you rather than Ellen White?)

[saharafan]

I intend this to be hopefully my last "off-topic post" on this forum on the subject of Ellen White and the Spirit of Prophecy. I do not want to try to convince anybody of my viewpoint, but I do want to explain myself in order not to be misunderstood.

I am quoting the Fundamental Belief #18, "The Gift of Prophecy", of the SDA church from http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html Emphasis added is mine.

18. The Gift of Prophecy:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White. As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)

I honestly feel a little bit sorry that I feel the need to defend my believe in the validity and "biblical correctnes" of this fundamental believe of my church on this "Black SDA" Website to other Adventists. Let me say that every and any authority that I or the official SDA church attribute to Ellen White and/or her writings is solely based on and derived from the Bible and the Bible alone. I believe that "her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth" simply because the Bible instructs me to do so.
I also see no contradiction at all in her "version" of the story of the Fall of Adam and Eve and the one found in Genesis 3, but rather a harmonic blending, by the way. But that is, admittedly, my personal viewpoint.

I am somehow surprised, however, that some dear Adventist brothers or sisters who take issue with this fundamental believe and have a problem to accept her visions and dreams as genuinely from God and her writings as inspired and an "authoritative source of truth" without pointing out which biblical test of the true prophetic gift she fails to pass, are at the same time readily willing to accept unqualifiedly a second-hand report on another woman's visions or dreams without putting her message to the same biblical test. This I am not able to understand, honestly.

Again, certainly the Bible is the prime and original authority, and every authority given to other extra-biblical sources claiming inspiration must definitely be derived from the Bible, and the Bible only. But since the Bible itself attributes authority to extra-biblical true prophets and prophecy, and even predicts that the "Testimony of Jesus" or the "Spirit of Prophecy" will again be given to Christ's true church in the end-time (Revelation 12 etc.), I feel biblically justified to attribute the same kind of authority that the Bible has to me also to the message of this biblically predicted "Spirit of Prophecy" once it has been thoroughly examined and biblically vindicated: DIVINE AUTHORITY.

The reason I posted those quotes from sister White's writings about "visions & dreams" was because I thought that we can learn a lot more from her refereces to this issue simply because she often had to deal with it, than from the rather few and not-so-clear biblical references, although some certainly do exist. It was an attempt to help us to understand better the issues involved and the danger of accepting and following false dreams or messages from evil spirits, and the importance and need to put those dreams and messages to the biblical test. And I thought since it would be mainly SDA's who would read it, this wouldn't be a problem. Ellen White's writings should never be used to "proof" anything in any discussion with persons who are not really convinced of her inspiration and have not fully accepted her writings as an "authoritative source of truth" but still have doubts about her.

By the way, although I am personally a vegetarian by choice, I do love to eat cheese and spicy hot foods (including black pepper) and even chocolate from time to time, although sister Withe clearly discourages the consumption of these. However, I don't have a problem with her because of her advice that these things are not healthy for our bodies and should better not be consumed. I do believe that she is right with this. I see the problem rather with me and my present personal attitude towards these "foods". Therefore the inconsistency here is not between her writings and the Bible but between her "inspired and authoritative" recommendations and my lifestyle. So I am not "holier" than anyone of you. However, at the same time I also wouldn't say that I am "living in sin" because of this. But I still have the hope and the aim that one day I will get rid of those things...

I do want to appologize for using the term "human races" for referring to different ethnicities; English is not my mother tongue and I was not aware that this term might possibly hurt somebody, and justifiably so, who has either suffered personally because of his or her ethnic origin, or who feels it to be very inappropriate considering the unimaginable harm that has been done during the last several centuries to African peoples and other "races" because of the evil mindset and worldview that is or has been often connected with this term. Let me say that, being myself of European descent, several of my closest and best friends are black Africans (given the fact that I live in Africa) and that I don't feel in any way superior or better than they. So please feel free to replace this term with "ethnic people groups" or whatever else you deem appropriate.

I will no further contribute to this discussion on Ellen White's writings.

[Clay]

How do you recognize that it is God speaking?

I know that the work of the Holy Spirit has been mentioned, but the question remains: How do you know of the Holy Spirit?

Is all "spirituality" (i.e. Hinduism, Vodooism, Scientology, Mormonism, Islam, Shintoism, etc.) a way of experiencing/hearing God?

Does the Holy Spirit ever contradict what has been revealed and recorded in the Scriptures?

How do I recognize my wife when I call her on the phone? I know her voice and she knows mine..... how? because we have a relationship..... How do I know the holy spirit? He has a voice too that I recognize....

[PrincessDrRe]

H'mm, DrRe, are you also working on a PhD in Physiology that you write with such authority on the subject? (I.e. why should I believe you rather than Ellen White?)

- but also did an "extensive" study of my Advisor's Dissertation on the topic. If anywhere near AU stop in the Education & Counseling Department (@ Bell Hall) - I will be there nightly during the week finishing up my coursework.

We can go over the "dissertation" and the research - that shows the "inconsistencies" - with her writings in regards to the BIBLE and also herself. However statements like this normally come from those that have only read the "circulating" books and not her archived work.

BOT!

Still lurkin'....

[Clay]

I intend this to be hopefully my last "off-topic post" on this forum on the subject of Ellen White and the Spirit of Prophecy. I do not want to try to convince anybody of my viewpoint, but I do want to explain myself in order not to be misunderstood.

I am quoting the Fundamental Belief #18, "The Gift of Prophecy", of the SDA church from http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html Emphasis added is mine.

I honestly feel a little bit sorry that I feel the need to defend my believe in the validity and "biblical correctnes" of this fundamental believe of my church on this "Black SDA" Website to other Adventists. Let me say that every and any authority that I or the official SDA church attribute to Ellen White and/or her writings is solely based on and derived from the Bible and the Bible alone. I believe that "her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth" simply because the Bible instructs me to do so.
I also see no contradiction at all in her "version" of the story of the Fall of Adam and Eve and the one found in Genesis 3, but rather a harmonic blending, by the way. But that is, admittedly, my personal viewpoint.

I am somehow surprised, however, that some dear Adventist brothers or sisters who take issue with this fundamental believe and have a problem to accept her visions and dreams as genuinely from God and her writings as inspired and an "authoritative source of truth" without pointing out which biblical test of the true prophetic gift she fails to pass, are at the same time readily willing to accept unqualifiedly a second-hand report on another woman's visions or dreams without putting her message to the same biblical test. This I am not able to understand, honestly.

Again, certainly the Bible is the prime and original authority, and every authority given to other extra-biblical sources claiming inspiration must definitely be derived from the Bible, and the Bible only. But since the Bible itself attributes authority to extra-biblical true prophets and prophecy, and even predicts that the "Testimony of Jesus" or the "Spirit of Prophecy" will again be given to Christ's true church in the end-time (Revelation 12 etc.), I feel biblically justified to attribute the same kind of authority that the Bible has to me also to the message of this biblically predicted "Spirit of Prophecy" once it has been thoroughly examined and biblically vindicated: DIVINE AUTHORITY.

The reason I posted those quotes from sister White's writings about "visions & dreams" was because I thought that we can learn a lot more from her refereces to this issue simply because she often had to deal with it, than from the rather few and not-so-clear biblical references, although some certainly do exist. It was an attempt to help us to understand better the issues involved and the danger of accepting and following false dreams or messages from evil spirits, and the importance and need to put those dreams and messages to the biblical test. And I thought since it would be mainly SDA's who would read it, this wouldn't be a problem. Ellen White's writings should never be used to "proof" anything in any discussion with persons who are not really convinced of her inspiration and have not fully accepted her writings as an "authoritative source of truth" but still have doubts about her.

snip...

thanks for sharing your views, and you can continue discussing the as long as there is interest.... not everyone will agree with you and not everyone must agree... in the end egw is not the savior and it is not necessary to believe "in her" to be saved.... not all adventists believe the same thing as you know so you don't have to look at it as defending your beliefs as much as sharing where you are in your christian walk....

As for the 28 fundamentals.... if they work for you, thats cool...

let me add you don't do everything the bible instructs you to do.... the bible says sabbathbreakers should be put to death.... the bible says to stone to death rebellious children.... you don't obey those directives because what?

This post has been edited by Clay: Aug 23 2006, 07:53 AM

[Barbara Kerr]

Thanks, "PrincessDrRe" and "msracoon",

The second "Barbara" letter. Here is an example of how we selectively[i][u] believe. The first letter "Pinned" by Barbara bears witness to much of what is already known about the compound and it's inhabitants.
The second letter was related to her by another individual. That makes it "second hand". The first, "Pinned", letter is a first-hand experience. When we hear something that may please us we tend easily to acceptit even if the content is sad. If we hear something of "what???" was that about? we tend to raise an eyebrow. It is as we should do.

Barbara's credibility should not be questioned for passing along the "DREAM/VISION? letter any more than the rest of the "posters"'s credibility.
We trust first hand reports more than second had and we think nothing of it. We question the validity of the "DreamVision", not that it was passed along. It really does fit into this issue of what is going on at 3ABN and what the future may hold.
Has anyone else had a dream of what might become of Danny or 3ABN? or was it more of a nightmare?

Hi Everyone,

Thank you JustMe and all of you for being so gracious in your replies to the letter that I posted. As I have read back through your responses this past week I have seen that you have had quite the "lively" conversation. WOW. I had no idea that all of this conversation would be generated from the dreams.

Someone posted a bunch of questions way back on one of the first few pages asking why would these dreams even be published? What was the purpose? Was there an interpretation?

I have been thinking a lot about those questions, and want to say that God has NOT revealed to me any special interpretation, but if I was a guessing woman, and having been personally in the middle of the 3abn "mess", I'm guessing that the purpose of the dreams being posted really has absolutely nothing to do with "us" (those that are not the 3abn family).

When a person builds themselves a castle and then surrounds it with guards so that no one can approach TC1 (the chosen one), this post may have happened for the soul purpose of trying to send out a wake up call to those that are so busy working FOR God that they don't seem to have time to listen TO God. God always gives us EVERY opportunity to turn our lives around and make things right. Danny is no different -- but will he actually listen??? I hope so.

Thanks again for the stimulating conversation and for the sweet emails you have sent. I have enjoyed reading every one of them.

Hugs,
Barbara Kerr

[Barbara Kerr]

How do I recognize my wife when I call her on the phone? I know her voice and she knows mine..... how? because we have a relationship..... How do I know the holy spirit? He has a voice too that I recognize....

Hi Clay,
You truly hit the nail on the head. It's easy to spend time learning about God without spending time "with" God. I promise you I recognize my best friends voice everytime I hear it. Why? Because we have spent hours and hours and hours talking over the past 14 years. And we have the phone bills to prove it!

I am not embarrassed or ashamed to tell everyone that it is my practice to ask God to "speak" to me from His word EVERY morning before I begin reading my Bible. I never used to do that, but it has become one of the most precious parts of my daily devotional time. If you don't think that God will speak to you, just pray for the Holy Spirit to lead you and try it.

The other thing that I never used to do that is really cool, is to ask God to wake you up in the morning when He wants to spend time with you. You will find yourself awake at least an hour before you usually get up. No alarm clocks needed. I love this time with God. I crave it now and I can't live with out it.

I'm not ashamed or embarrassed to shout from the highest mountain top that I recognize the voice of God when He speaks to me. There is a huge difference between God's voice in my ear, and the voice of the evil one. People can debate it forever -- but just like a picture is like a thousand words, .............. this is something that is necessary to experience on your own. If you are not sure whos voice is speaking to you, then I encourage you to go to your knees for answers. Put out your fleece if necessary. God will answer.

Warmly,
Barbara Kerr

[Fran]

Hi Clay,
You truly hit the nail on the head. It's easy to spend time learning about God without spending time "with" God. I promise you I recognize my best friends voice everytime I hear it. Why? Because we have spent hours and hours and hours talking over the past 14 years. And we have the phone bills to prove it!

I am not embarrassed or ashamed to tell everyone that it is my practice to ask God to "speak" to me from His word EVERY morning before I begin reading my Bible. I never used to do that, but it has become one of the most precious parts of my daily devotional time. If you don't think that God will speak to you, just pray for the Holy Spirit to lead you and try it.

The other thing that I never used to do that is really cool, is to ask God to wake you up in the morning when He wants to spend time with you. You will find yourself awake at least an hour before you usually get up. No alarm clocks needed. I love this time with God. I crave it now and I can't live with out it.

I'm not ashamed or embarrassed to shout from the highest mountain top that I recognize the voice of God when He speaks to me. There is a huge difference between God's voice in my ear, and the voice of the evil one. People can debate it forever -- but just like a picture is like a thousand words, .............. this is something that is necessary to experience on your own. If you are not sure whos voice is speaking to you, then I encourage you to go to your knees for answers. Put out your fleece if necessary. God will answer.

Warmly,
Barbara Kerr

Thank you Barbara! This is so true!

[inga]

Barbara, thanks for your lovely post sharing your experience.

Yes, God speaks to us individually when we spend time with Him. My question was actually intended to demonstrate that our knowledge of God and Who He is and Who the Holy Spirit is is founded in Scripture -- at least in a society where the Scriptures are readily available. God's written Word is His chief intended means of communicating with us because it is the only objective standard we have to recognize whether the voice we hear is His or simply our own thoughts or even (God forbid) that of the great deceiver.

I previously asked on what basis we believe that we hear the voice of the Creator and that our hearing is better than those who hear Allah or the voice of their personal spirit or any of the multitude of voices in this world. Again, I had hoped to draw attention to the primacy of the Scriptures.

Clay mentioned that he recognizes the voice of the Holy Spirit the way he recognizes the voice of his wife. What he omitted to mention was that he actually saw his wife when he got acquainted with her. He spent time with her physically, he works with her, plays with her, etc. When we speak of knowing the Holy Spirit we do not have the same advantage as when we speak of knowing our spouses. We do not see the Holy Spirit or touch Him physically (thinking of the sight-impaired), so we must learn to recognize Him by other means. When we recognize our spouse's voice over the phone it is because we have heard them in person while seeing them, and their voice is the same as what we have come to know. Similarly, the voice of the Spirit speaks in the same manner as He has spoken in the past, and the Scriptures demonstrate what He has said in the past. In othe words, we get to know Him through the Scriptures and thus learn to recognize His voice when He speaks to us in other ways.

Without any objective check of the "voice" we hear, we cannot know whose voice it is. There are many sincere folks who hear "the Holy Spirit" say things quite contrary to the Scriptures, and I believe they are not hearing the Holy Spirit.

Again, thank you Barbara for your practical sharing of how we may hear the Holy Spirit and know that He's the One speaking.

Hi Clay,
You truly hit the nail on the head. It's easy to spend time learning about God without spending time "with" God. I promise you I recognize my best friends voice everytime I hear it. Why? Because we have spent hours and hours and hours talking over the past 14 years. And we have the phone bills to prove it!

I am not embarrassed or ashamed to tell everyone that it is my practice to ask God to "speak" to me from His word EVERY morning before I begin reading my Bible. I never used to do that, but it has become one of the most precious parts of my daily devotional time. If you don't think that God will speak to you, just pray for the Holy Spirit to lead you and try it.

The other thing that I never used to do that is really cool, is to ask God to wake you up in the morning when He wants to spend time with you. You will find yourself awake at least an hour before you usually get up. No alarm clocks needed. I love this time with God. I crave it now and I can't live with out it.

I'm not ashamed or embarrassed to shout from the highest mountain top that I recognize the voice of God when He speaks to me. There is a huge difference between God's voice in my ear, and the voice of the evil one. People can debate it forever -- but just like a picture is like a thousand words, .............. this is something that is necessary to experience on your own. If you are not sure whos voice is speaking to you, then I encourage you to go to your knees for answers. Put out your fleece if necessary. God will answer.

Warmly,
Barbara Kerr

This post has been edited by inga: Aug 25 2006, 12:36 AM

[Barbara Kerr]

Barbara, thanks for your lovely post sharing your experience.

Yes, God speaks to us individually when we spend time with Him. My question was actually intended to demonstrate that our knowledge of God and Who He is and Who the Holy Spirit is is founded in Scripture -- at least in a society where the Scriptures are readily available. God's written Word is His chief intended means of communicating with us because it is the only objective standard we have to recognize whether the voice we hear is His or simply our own thoughts or even (God forbid) that of the great deceiver.

I previously asked on what basis we believe that we hear the voice of the Creator and that our hearing is better than those who hear Allah or the voice of their personal spirit or any of the multitude of voices in this world. Again, I had hoped to draw attention to the primacy of the Scriptures.

Clay mentioned that he recognizes the voice of the Holy Spirit the way he recognizes the voice of his wife. What he omitted to mention was that he actually saw his wife when he got acquainted with her. He spent time with her physically, he works with her, plays with her, etc. When we speak of knowing the Holy Spirit we do not have the same advantage as when we speak of knowing our spouses. We do not see the Holy Spirit or touch Him physicall (thinking of the sight-impaire), so we must learn to recognize Him by other means. When we recognize our spouse's voice over the phone it is because we have heard them in person while seeing them, and their voice is the same as what we have come to know. Similarly, the voice of the Spirit speaks in the same manner as He has spoken in the past, and the Scriptures demonstrate what He has said in the past. In othe words, we get to know Him through the Scriptures and thus learn to recognize His voice when He speaks to us in other ways.

Without any objective check of the "voice" we hear, we cannot know whose voice it is. There are many sincere folks who hear "the Holy Spirit" say things quite contrary to the Scriptures, and I believe they are not hearing the Holy Spirit.

Again, thank you Barbara for your practical sharing of how we may hear the Holy Spirit and know that He's the One speaking.

Hi Inga,

I always enjoy reading your comments and I do hear what you are asking.

I totally agree that there are many sincere folks who hear "the Holy Spirit" say things that are quite contrary to the Scriptures, and I too believe they are not hearing the Holy Spirit.

It has to do with how we are raised. One of my close friends was raised by a practicing witch. As a child she learned how to "use the gifts that she had been given by the spirits". She also became accustomed to speaking a language that belonged in spirit worship. She grew up using her "special gifts" and speaking this language.

Did my friend think she was living a good life and would be rewarded with something great like being re-incarnated as something really cool the "next time around"? Absolutely!

After her mother became a born again SDA Christian, she began praying for her daughter to come to know Christ. The daughter began to attend church (but not an sda church). She joined a pentecostal church. She abruptly stopped going one day after she was given the "gift of speaking in tongues" and realized that the language they spoke was EXACTLY the same as that spoken during her days as a practicing witch!

I am thrilled to say that she is a vibrant and "on-fire" SDA Christian today, using her experiences to help educate the public on the differences between the Lord and the deceptions of the evil one. Her name is Stephanie Armstrong, and she has a wonderful ministry.

Inga, a big part of the answer to your question is that I personally have accepted the Bible as my "home plate". Once a person accepts the Bible, and the Bible alone, as their compass then they can make statements in faith (as I did in the previous post) about knowing the voice of the Holy Spirit. I'm sure that the people that become accustomed to listening to the voice of the evil one also know his voice. Each one may believe that the other is deceived, but that is where study comes in. We have to know what we believe and why, (I'm speaking to myself here too) and then we have to find a comfort level with it.

With as much spiritualism as there is in today's world, we need to fervently pray for one another, our marriages, our children and our extended families. If the evil one is doubling and tripling his forces to break up families, then isn't it time we double and triple our prayer time? Just a thought.

Barbara Kerr

[Ralph]

After her mother became a born again SDA Christian, she began praying for her daughter to come to know Christ. The daughter began to attend church (but not an sda church). She joined a pentecostal church. She abruptly stopped going one day after she was given the "gift of speaking in tongues" and realized that the language they spoke was EXACTLY the same as that spoken during her days as a practicing witch!

Thanks for the insightful post, Barbara. That answered a big question for me. I am wondering how much the Pentecostal background of some key figures has infiltrated 3ABN.

[saharafan]

How do I recognize my wife when I call her on the phone? I know her voice and she knows mine..... how? because we have a relationship..... How do I know the holy spirit? He has a voice too that I recognize....

The point is that you are used to the physical voice of your wife. You have past experience of her talking to you, and you listening to her (and that's great because wifes appreciate that when their husbands take time to listen to them...). In the past you could know without any doubt that it is really the person that is now your wife that is talking because you actually saw her talking to you, and more than once I assume. And you have good reason to assume there is only one person in the world that speaks exactly like her. That is why you know and reconize her voice now, even if you don't see her talking to you because you look into a different direction, have your eyes closed, or you talk together on the phone.

Similarly, IF you would be a genuine "true" prophet of God, verified and validated by the Bible, and therefore you would be used/acustomed to/experienced with receiving genuine visions and dreams from God in the past that have already been thoroughly examined according to biblical standards and past the test, then I would accept if you said you know the physical voice of God/the Holy Spirit and you recognize Him speaking; then I would believe you if you said that you have received a vision from God and Jesus Himself told you this and that.

However, this is simply not the usual way God communicates with us, and therefore we need to be very careful with such kind of unusual, supernatural "revelations of God". We really need to verify His voice or message by the secure and authentic "standard means of communication" of God that cannot be falsified to deceive us, the only really dependable source of God's communication to us, the Bible (and I would even add, the writings of Ellen White, but let's forget that for now). That is where we can get used to HOW God is talking to us.

When God speaks to us (even individually) in an unusual way, a way that we (as community of believers, as "church") are not used to, it is very dangerous to simply assume, "that must be God speaking". We really need to check, to second guess and to verify with the only really dependable and generally agreed-upon source of God's communication to us (the Bible), at least until we (as a church) are used to this new way of Him communicating with us. We need to be especially carefull if this new and unusual way of God speaking to us can be easily falsified by the enemy to deceive us, which clearly is the case with "visions and deams", "thought voices", and emotional impressions on our mind; too many examples of "false visions" and "false dreams" are happening today and have always happened. Somewhere here on BSDA I read that Danny Shelton also is receiving "visions and dreams"! So if God really communicates directly with him like He does with a prophet, we should have more respect of him, shouldn't we?

I remember, once I talked with Mormon evangelists, and I asked them two questions:
"1) Why are you sure that Joseph Smith is a true prophet of God?"
"2) How can I be sure that he is a true prophet of God?"
The response was quite simple: "Just pray and ask God that He will tell you." They told me that Joseph Smith himself after receiving his first vision or revelation was very stunned and didn't know, does this come from God or not; but instead of searching in the Bible for the answer to this question, what he did was, as they said, he ran into the woods and started praying, praying, praying, asking God to tell him whether that revelation comes from Him; he prayed for a long time until finally in that prayer "God" gave him the assurance that this vision is from HIM. It obviously was an emotional "assurance", a feeling, an impression.
Both Mormon evangelistst told me they themselves have done and experienced exactly the same thing; they prayed until God "showed" them in their prayer that the revelations of Joseph Smith, and thus the Book of Mormon are really from God. They invited me and tried to encourage me to do the same, praying "until God gives me assurance/showes me that Joseph Smith is a true prophet and the Book of Mormon is His authentic and true revelation."
I tried to get them to the point to understand the need to verify each new revelation with the previous well recognized ones (in this case the Bible), and that there is no need to ask God in prayer for confirmation if the new revelation doesn't agree with the Bible in the first place; that this is even very dangerous; but it was completely in vain. The reason was, they have already had a personal emotional experience of "God" giving them the assurance in prayer that Joseph Smith is a true prophet, and this emotional experience was indisputable and became the highest unqestionable authority, thus taking the place the Bible only should have.

That is why it is so important that all our spiritual experiences are to be judged by the Bible!

By the way, this way of praying for assurance until God gives it to you that those Mormons where talking about is quite similar to the way Pentecostals are praying for the "gift of tounges"; they often also pray and pray and pray, sometimes for hours, with all their emotional power, asking God repeatedly to give them this "gift of tounges", often repeating the same phrase again and again like a mantra, until finally they "receive" it for the first time. Then they are "baptized by the Spirit", but in my conviction not by the biblical authentic Spirit of God.
Once they have had this experience, it becomes most of the time really difficult to argue with them on anything doctrinal based on the Bible because usually their emotional "spiritual" experience replaces the role of the Bible as the supreme Judge of all doctrine and religious experience.

The Holy Spirit certainly can give us "impressions" and can "speak" to our consciousness. However, these are both not "clear and secure" channels of communication where we could have assurance that the impression or thought really comes from God and is uncorrupted, undefiled and authentic. So we should never base moral and doctrinal decissions on that basis, including the acceptance of religious experiences like visions and dreams etc. as authentic and genuinely from God.

By the way, I believe that that Joel 2:28-29 prophecy that states that "your old men shall dream dreams and your young men shall see visions" will have its final and major fulfillment still in the future, at a time when we will be in real need of this kind of direct communication from God because of the circumstances of severe persecution and suffering in the end-time/time of trouble. There is simply no need for God to communicate in this direct way with us today, as long as the Bible and the writings of the "Spirit of Prophecy" (Ellen Withe) are fully sufficiant for us. In the future, God might possibly raise one or more other prophet(s) for us and probably will give us those "visions and dreams" referred to in Joel 2, when He deems it to be necessary because of the circumstances of the time. Once the end-time persecution fully sets in, and even more in the "time of troule", we might be in need of additional advice specific to the situation, of what to do, how to escape locally the persecuters, how to behave in specific situations, how to respond when questioned etc.; desperately needed information and advice that cannot be found in the Bible or the writings of EGW in suffcient detail. Then will come the need for those divine visions for direct guidance and encouragement. But today, at a time where the Bible is still sufficient for us and where the enemy of our souls gives so many false visions and dreams etc. even to professedly sincere Christians, not only that there is no need for it, it would also just create confusion because of those false counterfeit visions and dreams. Therefore I think that today God only rarely gives authentic visions and dreams, especially to true Christians who have already the Bible to know the truth and decide on what to do (He prefers to give "wisdom" to those who seek the answers to their questions in the Bible). It would have to be a special situation that would vindicate the need of such a divine communication. In the past, God sent prophets mostly in times of great distress for His people, when there was the need for guidance in the actual situation. God doesn't give "visions & dreams", or the "gift of prophecy", just to satisfy our couriosity or our desire for religious/emotional "spiritual" experiences. (He might sometimes give a dream to new believers or to truth-seekers to guide them towards Him or the Bible or to confirm new found faith in Him or certain doctrines etc., on an individual basis, though.) In addition, we only should expect God to communicate directly in a supernatural way with us if we previously have already fully accepted all His previous revelations in the Bible and the writings of Ellen White and are following through with the teachings of those divinely inspired books.

I would really be interested to learn more about that "pentecostal" influence at 3ABN, and about "visions and dreams" by its leaders like Danny. I would appreciate a sound report or thorough analysis of pentecostal doctrine, ideology and thelogy personally held and directly or indirectly taught by them on air. I think this is a very important and critical point that should not be underestimated. If this is true, 3ABN can become a major tool for Satan to infiltrate our church, deceive many Adventists and finally get them to accept those pentecostal concepts, if 3ABN should go on with this present leadership and continue to grow in influence and number of viewers.

[PrincessDrRe]

Out of Lurk....

Do you also use your post/words to judge others....OTHER THAN Barbara Kerr?

Back to Lurk....

[Clay]

we only should expect God to communicate directly in a supernatural way with us if we previously have already fully accepted all His previous revelations in the Bible and the writings of Ellen White and are following through with the teachings of those divinely inspired books.

Ummmmmm NO...... I disagree.... and the more you write the more I will disagree... there are many who have never picked up a bible and they know God's voice...... and many more who will never read anything written by egw and they also know God's voice......

You cannot dictate how God will reveal himself to his creation.... and to say that he won't communicate in a particular way limits him.....

Once again.... I do not use the bible to verify my relationship with God.... the relationship came first, the bible gives me examples of how God has interacted with humans, but let's be clear, I prefer trusting and communicating with God here and now as opposed to spending countless hours reading the bible..... In fact the bible tells us that Jesus spent hours praying, praying is communicating with God, as opposed to studying scripture......

Jesus words are as true now as then.... you search the scriptures because in them you THINK you have eternal life, but they testify of me....

In fact saharafan, I disagree with the whole premise of your recent comment..... that all spiritual experiences be judged via the bible? I think you have placed too much on the bible..... anything spiritual must be judged by the Holy Spirit..... He does communicate with us.... or don't you believe that?

This post has been edited by Clay: Aug 27 2006, 01:18 AM

[watchbird]

Ummmmmm NO...... I disagree.... and the more you write the more I will disagree... there are many who have never picked up a bible and they know God's voice...... and many more who will never read anything written by egw and they also know God's voice......

While this is true to some extent...... it is true mostly of those who have no opportunity to have access the a bible. And there is also a great deal of difference between knowing God's voice because of great familiarity with Him through personal contact with others who know God voice and/or by recognizing a "different" voice than that which they have normally lived with in their minds.

You cannot dictate how God will reveal himself to his creation.... and to say that he won't communicate in a particular way limits him.....

Agreed. From what we can observe of how God reveals Himself, I think we can be safe in making the generalization that God meets people where they are.... and that may be in what seems to be "supernatural" ways....... including "dreams and visions" as well as other strange (to us) ways "signs and miracles" typical of their own belief system....... or that may be in wholly "natural" ways..... that is to say through the cognitive faculties of their minds, observing what is and reasoning from that to the existence of a "Creator God", and from that to a sense of what that God wants for and from us humans. (And as I write, I am thinking specifically of the experience of a young man whom our missionary to the Pnong people of Cambodia has been telling us about, and I put "Creator God" in quotes because this is the words that the Pnong people retain in their vocabulary for the dim sense of a God who is different from the evil spirits whom they actively worship.)

But having said that, I also firmly believe that we can and should make another generalization which is as Saharafan has indicated...... that wherever there is access to scripture, God always points people to that and the Holy Spirit speaks to us first and formost through what has already been revealed and written down in Scripture. In other words, when possible, God moves people from where they were and directs them to a body of believers, and to his written scripture. (Witness the experiences of Saul/Paul, where God met him in what was to him a dramatic and unmistakable "supernatural" manner, but then led him directly to the church group in Damascus, then out to the "wilderness" for a period of years in which he presumeably received more supernatural encounters with God, but then back to the church headquarters in Jerusalem, where he submitted himself to the church leaders and in his preaching which primarily was built upon and sent people to the scriptures of his day..... so they could test his words by the scriptures they already had.

Once again.... I do not use the bible to verify my relationship with God.... the relationship came first, the bible gives me examples of how God has interacted with humans, but let's be clear, I prefer trusting and communicating with God here and now as opposed to spending countless hours reading the bible..... In fact the bible tells us that Jesus spent hours praying, praying is communicating with God, as opposed to studying scripture......

Surely you are not suggesting that Jesus had not already studied scripture so thoroughly that he understood it better than the learned men of the day (witness his vist to the Temple school when he was but 12 years old) and had memorized it so well that its words were woven into his speech so accurately that we can look back at the scriptures he had available to him and figure out what text he was quoting.

So I cannot take your words seriously when you say "the relationship came first". I find that a very difficult statement to accept as truth. Now if you say that it is the most important thing to you NOW when compared to "countless hours reading the Bible" ..... that I would find easy to believe..... but you give too much evidence in the way you approach life that the principles of scripture are so interwoven in your own mind that you do use those to judge both yourself and others and the experiences you have with them. This is, IMO, as it should be. The Psalmist says, "Thy Word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against Thee".

Jesus words are as true now as then.... you search the scriptures because in them you THINK you have eternal life, but they testify of me....

Context please ..... this was directed towards the Jewish scholars who were searching scriptures for the purpose of sustaining their supremacy with the people. This is not suggesting that we, who do not have the human incarnation of God in our midst, should not search the scriptures to find how they testify of Christ.

In fact saharafan, I disagree with the whole premise of your recent comment..... that all spiritual experiences be judged via the bible? I think you have placed too much on the bible..... anything spiritual must be judged by the Holy Spirit..... He does communicate with us.... or don't you believe that?

Clay, you set up an unneccessary and unfair dichotomy here. Yes, of course, we who emphasize the primacy of scripture as the place we must go to judge our experiences ..... especially those which seem to be from some "supernatural" source...... ALSO believe that the Holy Spirit does communicate with us. But to put our experience above what is written is to walk on very dangerous ground ..... and that ground will get more and more dangerous ...... according to the predictions of increased permission being given to Satan to do "signs and miracles" which will look so "good" and so "genuine" that it will be difficult, even impossible, to tell their origin other than whether or not they speak "according to this word" which has already been written and preserved for our instruction.