The Dreams & Visions Concerning 3abn, A short letter from Barbara Kerr Options

[inga]

I hear what you are saying but I still disagree...[

That, of course, is your privilege and mine -- to continue to listen to each other, respect each other and still disagree. I must be faithful to truth as I know it, and you must be faithful to truth as you know it. Granted, in such disagreements we can't both be "right," but our attitude towards each other is far more important than the "correctness" of our interpretation. (We are not saved by correctness of understanding.)

there are committed christians who know when God speaks to them and they are in tune with his voice... some have to be because they cannot read the bible.... so they must have a relationship with God..... the same way a child recognizes the voice of their parents is the same type of intimate relationship God wants with us... Is that possible? Yes.... Jesus said my sheep KNOW my voice... and if it is possible for humans to develop an intimate relationship with each other without reading a book about the person, what prevents us from doing the same thing with our Heavenly Father?

I agree with the principles you cite above. To those who do not have the written Word, God reveals Himself in other ways. And the written Word is certainly not His only means of communicating with even those of us who do have the written Word available.

Otoh, how do we know we have an intimate relationship with Him -- our Creator God -- if we have His Word available and ignore what it says? If that is His main chosen means of communicating objective truth, are we not responsible to allow Him to speak to us that way? If we neglect the study of the Word, comparing Scripture with Scripture, what does that say about our regard for Him? (Please note I'm referring to a principle, without reference to any individuals that have been mentioned in the discussion.)

I understand what you are saying about the bible, but my confidence is not in the bible, it is in God.....

How do you know God? How do you know that He is who He is? Why are you a Seventh-day Adventist?

I'm asking these questions to demonstrate the pivotal role of Scripture. Early in the historical record of God's people, His written Word already played a pivotal role. "Thy Word is truth," is what the psalmist wrote. And "They Word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against Thee." In those days, the "Word" referred mainly to the writings of Moses.

If we conclude that in our culture we can have an "intimate relationship with God" without the Scriptures, how do we know the difference between our God and Gaia, our God and Allah, our God and a multitude of other gods worshiped in our society, either explicitly or implicitly. Are all gods the same? Does it matter what we believe? Does it matter in which god we believe? And if it matters, just how do we tell the difference? Are all believers in other gods insincere? Do they not want to believe in the true God?

scholars know the bible, debate the bible and still have no relationship with God, so it has to be more than just "studying" the bible..... I think we have to really and I mean really trust ourselves to him... and allow him to communicate with us intimately

Amen and AMEN! to what you write above!! Intellectual knowledge alone is not enough. We must "really entrust ourselves to Him and allow Him to communicate with us intimately." However, this does not lessen the role of Scripture. In fact, I believe Scripture is foundational to such a relationship.

Our emphasis on Scripture as the foundation of experience is what sets us apart from most charismatics who believe that an "intimate relationship" and charismatic manifestations supersede Scripture. Speaking with God directly, they no longer need the Bible. (As a matter of fact, one such pastor threw his Bible on the floor and said that's how much regard he had for the Bible when my husband demonstrated that the Bible did not support part of his belief system.) Otoh, I've also known many charismatics who understand the foundational role of Scripture, knowing that every manifestation must be tested by Scripture -- and that is farther than some members of this forum appear willing to go.

.... it is my opinion that many are afraid of this, just as Israel was at Sinai....

I think you're probably right.

To sum up regarding the original dreams mentioned: We must each reach our own conclusions regarding this. My conclusions in no way include anything negative about the recipient of these dreams or Barbara who shared them here. I have stated my conclusions and how I have formed my conclusion. Others may form different conclusions based on different criteria.

Adventism was founded on the bedrock of Protestantism's credo of the Bible and the Bible only as the foundation of faith and doctrine. "Prove all things" is the motto implied if not expressed. Protestantism served to stimulate independent thinnking and thus led to a great revival of learning in the world. It stimulated an abundance of discoveries and inventions.

Catholicism, on the other hand, emphasized tradition as the foundation of faith and mysticism as the way of experiencing God. This implies not doing one's own thinking but relying on "the church" (tradition) to define one's duty and mystical and/or charismatic experience to know God. It seems to me that modern charismatics are abandoning bedrock Protestantism and going back to mysticism, with "experience" taking the place of study and reason as a means of knowing God. It's also a convenient choice for the spiritually lazy in any denomination ...

Yesterday I thought that maybe our discussion of dreams and how to interpret them didn't belong in the 3ABN section, but I've changed my mind. Pentecostal/charismatic thinking is what we've noted as being promoted by 3ABN. And small wonder, since so many of the individuals involved are either currently Pentecostal or come from a Pentecostal background.

Each denomination or group of denominations has its own culture and vocabulary. Sometimes we make fun of our Adventist expressions, but Pentecostalism also has its own culture and vocabulary. And Danny's language such as "a word from the Lord" is an example of Pentecostal language. It's certainly not Adventist, unless our ministers have been influenced by 3ABN. We've mentioned the Pentecostal influence before, and folks seemed to recognize that that wasn't a good thing. But now, when dreams seem to substantiate what folks wish would happen, I sense a different attitude ...

Perhaps we should discuss the differences and similarities between Adventism and Pentecostalism and how it applies to 3ABN and our own Christian experience. And I would suggest inviting Watchbird to start out by defining the difference the way she sees it, since she apparently has considerable background in that area.

This post has been edited by inga: Aug 18 2006, 03:51 PM

[meadbd]

And Danny's language such as "a word from the Lord" is an example of Pentecostal language
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Actually, "a word(or message) from the Lord" is used in Jer.37:17 and elsewhere in the Bible. It doesn't belong to any denomination. It basically means, "What did God tell(or reveal) to you?" And He does reveal various things to each of us as we surrender ourselves to Him. Rather than comparing Pentacostalism to Adventism, let's just compare what we say and do to the Scriptures. That is the only accurate guide.

Bill

[Jvat]

Bill, I am with you on that last post.

[inga]

And Danny's language such as "a word from the Lord" is an example of Pentecostal language
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Actually, "a word(or message) from the Lord" is used in Jer.37:17 and elsewhere in the Bible. It doesn't belong to any denomination.

True enough. But different churches have different favorite quotes from the Bible. And I'm not aware of this being a favorite Adventist one. We can say the same thing in different ways, but I know that this is kind of a signal phrase among charismatics and, with them, refers to a specific direct revelation from the Lord which they are about to share.

It basically means, "What did God tell(or reveal) to you?" And He does reveal various things to each of us as we surrender ourselves to Him. Rather than comparing Pentacostalism to Adventism, let's just compare what we say and do to the Scriptures. That is the only accurate guide.

Again, agreed regarding the Scripture being the only accurate guide.

In the context of 3ABN, however, we've noted that there is a considerable Pentecostal influence and it is not all solidly Bible-based. I just used this as an example of the Pentecostal flavor of Dan's words.

[inga]

And Danny's language such as "a word from the Lord" is an example of Pentecostal language
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Actually, "a word(or message) from the Lord" is used in Jer.37:17 and elsewhere in the Bible.

and

Rather than comparing Pentacostalism to Adventism, let's just compare what we say and do to the Scriptures. That is the only accurate guide.

Upon reflection, I figure that would be a good exercise to do regarding using the phrase "a word from the Lord" and related phrases ...

In Jeremiah 26.1 & 2, we read:
In the beginning of the reign of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah came this word from the LORD, saying,
Thus saith the LORD; Stand in the court of the LORD'S house, and speak unto all the cities of Judah, which come to worship in the LORD'S house, all the words that I command thee to speak unto them; diminish not a word."

In this case the "word from the Lord" is a direct message from God which He is commissioning His prophet to give to the people.

And in Jeremiah 37.17, we read:
"Then Zedekiah the king sent, and took him out: and the king asked him secretly in his house, and said, Is there any word from the LORD? And Jeremiah said, There is: for, said he, thou shalt be delivered into the hand of the king of Babylon."

Again this refers specifically to the Lord's message to and through His chosen prophet. (These are the only instances of "a word from the Lord" in the KJV.)

So, if we are to follow the usage of Scripture, "a word from the Lord" refers specifically to messages from God to and through His chosen prophet.

The question to consider is whether we are willing to accept Danny Shelton as God's chosen prophet. His associates call him "chosen," and He says He has "a word from the Lord." (They've been wise enough not to call him a "prophet" outright.)

Dan Shelton's associates also say he is "anointed."

In the Bible, parts of the sanctuary and its symbolic furniture were "anointed." Later chosen kings were "anointed" (e.g. Saul, David and many others specifically called by God) and called "anointed of the Lord." In one text (Psalm 105:115) "mine anointed" may refer to the whole nation of Israel or to just the kings or prophets. "The Lord's anointed" is used only in reference to kings. And a number of references make clear that the Messiah was specially anointed of the Lord. The anointing of the sanctuary, which symbolized His work, is a foreshadowing of this anointing.

Of course, there is also the common usage of anointing oneself, aooarently equivalen to taking a shower and putting on aftershave.

The question is, in which way, if any, are we willing to accept Dan Shelton as "anointed." Is he really "the Lord's anointed" as his associates call him? Is he a king or prophet or Messiah?

If I remember correctly, David Koresh also had definite ideas regarding being "chosen" ...

[Clay]

True enough. But different churches have different favorite quotes from the Bible. And I'm not aware of this being a favorite Adventist one. We can say the same thing in different ways, but I know that this is kind of a signal phrase among charismatics and, with them, refers to a specific direct revelation from the Lord which they are about to share.
Again, agreed regarding the Scripture being the only accurate guide.

In the context of 3ABN, however, we've noted that there is a considerable Pentecostal influence and it is not all solidly Bible-based. I just used this as an example of the Pentecostal flavor of Dan's words.

the phrase " a word from the lord" is used quite often in black churches and black sda churches.... again I think because some of you all have been sensitized to what is happening at 3abn, everything is getting painted with the same brush... however that particular phrase has been used by preachers and laity alike for as long as I can remember.... additionally it was not unusual for a sister or a brother to start "shouting" in the midst of a good sermon, or song....

as for things being biblical based, there is no blueprint given in the bible as to how certain things should happen... i.e. church services for example..... so there will be considerable differences in a worship experience..... in fact I could take you to a service here locally that you may just run from the building if you think that those things you mentioned are pentecostal in nature....

[inga]

the phrase " a word from the lord" is used quite often in black churches and black sda churches....

Well, Danny's not noted for his promotion of black culture, is he?

again I think because some of you all have been sensitized to what is happening at 3abn, everything is getting painted with the same brush... however that particular phrase has been used by preachers and laity alike for as long as I can remember.... additionally it was not unusual for a sister or a brother to start "shouting" in the midst of a good sermon, or song....

Yes, I'm aware of the difference in black Christian (not just Adventist) culture. When my hubby was at Andrews University, he preached at a little black Baptist church once in a while. He used to really enjoy it because the folks were to down-to-earth and .. well, uninhibited. Because the black conferences have so long been separated from white conferences -- and not just because the white folks wanted it!! -- they have developed a different culture. And, yes, it is much closer to the Pentecostal culture. But there is a big difference between such cultural accoutrements as enthusiastic swaying, clapping, shouting (Amen, Brother!! Right on, Brother!! Hallelujah!! Praise the Lord!!) and seriously making claims that put one on the level of a prophet. It's the context that makes the difference, and the context of Danny's expression gives the expression a totally different meaning than it would have as used by black folks in a black church. While I have thoroughly appreciated the times we have worshiped in black churches, the message was always thoroughly Adventist, not Pentecostal. No claims of special gifts from the Lord, no claims of special status or Messiaship. Your experience may differ, and if you are experiencing such things in your churches as Danny puts out, then I would be concerned about your churches as well.

as for things being biblical based, there is no blueprint given in the bible as to how certain things should happen... i.e. church services for example..... so there will be considerable differences in a worship experience.....

Now you're preaching my sermon! (In our local church we have some folks who think anything older is better, that contemporary music is of the devil, that any movement while singing is evil, etc. etc. So, as music coordinator, I've been using that argument quite bit.

in fact I could take you to a service here locally that you may just run from the building if you think that those things you mentioned are pentecostal in nature....

Do they too? Do they ?

How'd we get to this point in the discussion anyway? Oh, yeah ... I mentioned an impression gained from Danny's way of talking ... Quite possibly the same words from a black preacher said in typical black-preacher style, wouldn't have given me the same impression ... Context, context, it's all about the context ...

As it is, it was just an impression and probably not worth defending. But when Bill said we should stick to the Bible, I couldn't resist.

Man, you make me yearn for a little import of that black culture into our church. We sure could use something to stir up the saints! (Even the young woman who leads the songs in contemporary praise services stands like a statue when she singgs. And it was suggested that if I had to move to keep time with the music, why didn't I stand behind the pulpit where it couldn't be seen? I kid you not! )

PS My original version of this message didn't go through because of "too many emoticons"! ?? (I need one now! This sounds like a board version of our local-church body movement police. Ah .. emoticon, emoticon, I need an emoticon!! )

[Clay]

thanks for the clarification and the tangent which I think needed to be explored some... it is about context and point of reference and perhaps given the influence at 3abn from those from a pentecostal background are enough to give one pause... the reality may be before we rush to judgment about dreams that people share with us that we try to identify the context and not just assume the worst....

[PrincessDrRe]

[saharafan]

CAN SATAN READ OUR MINDS?

This is what Ellen White says about it:

Satan has his evil angels around us; and though they cannot read men's thoughts, they closely watch their words and actions. Satan takes advantage of the weakness and defects of character that are thus revealed, and presses his temptations where there is least power of resistance. He makes evil suggestions, and inspires worldly thoughts, knowing that he can thus bring the soul into condemnation and bondage. {GW92 417.3}

I did NOT suggest that the enemy has "unrestricted access" to our minds, neither that he is "in control". Certainly he doesn't. In modern language I would say, he has no "read access" but does have limited or restricted "write access" to certain files or folders, to certain parts of our mind. That is part of our fallen human nature, the sinfull nature that we are born in, if you want. Maybe he knows our "public key" and thus can send us messages, but he usually doesn't have the "private key" to also decrypt our thoughts. Maybe he uses biological ways yet unknown to us as Inge has suggested. Certainly, God is in control of his "access rights", especially if we allow Him to be the "Administrator", and He doesn't give him all the access, control and rights that he wants.

If our "firewall" is enforced and strong (our personal relationship with Christ, who in turn protects us with His Holy Spirit, and sanctifies us closing "ports") and our "anti-virus protection" activated and up to date (our knowledge of, and dependence on the Word of God we use to test everything that comes in or goes out), he certainly cannot break in (hack) and hijack our system, nor read any documents. But there might still be some SPAM messages getting through... And we need to be carefull not to believe them and be deceived. We need to use our brain as the SPAM filter, and I think the Scriptures should also be used for providing the defining criterions for this SPAM filter.

However, if we forget to activate or update the anti-virus protection (the Holy Scriptures, testing by it everything that comes in) and forget to search the whole hard disk for viruses from time to time, than we are in danger of viruses, troyans etc. (false teachings, evil spirits...) to infect us and spread in the system; they can also infect other systems in the network (the church) if they are not well protected, too.
And I am afraid this is exactly what is happening in pentecostal and charismatic groups.

During certain spiritualistic activities Satan might gain some read access, and even "unrestricted access" and "full control" over the mind. If such activities have happened in the past, or have been performed by one's parents or grandparents, he might have more rights on our system as usual. Only God can restrict him then.

Other related quotes from sister White:

We must know what is written in order that we may not be defeated by the sophistry and enchantments of Satan. The wily foe will work upon our minds in such a way that he will lead us to follow in the way he has gone, and cause us to dream of greatness, worldly honor, and distinction. {ST, September 18, 1893 par. 6}

Satan Seeks to Control Children's Minds.--Parents, you know something of the inducements by which Satan tries to lead your children into folly. He is working with all his powers to lead them astray. With a determination that many do not dream of he is seeking to gain control of their minds and to make the commandments of God of no effect in their lives.--MS 93, 1909. {1MCP 170.2}

If Satan can tempt us by subtile deceptions of false teachings, and even by strong supernatural deceptions approaching us from the outside (e.g. Satan appearing as an angel of God in the temtations of Jesus in Matthew 4; dead loved ones appearing to us and offering to help and guide us; Satan appearing as the returning Christ; appearances of Mary), deceptions that can ONLY be discovered as such if tested by the Word of God, what would be the difference if a deception comes from the "inside", through ideas, impressions, and ... dreams? Als long as we have the Holy Scriptures availlable to test their truth, authenticity and credibility, God might allow Satan to use this kind of temptation, too. That's my opinion.

[sonshineonme]

CAN SATAN READ OUR MINDS?

This is what Ellen White says about it:

I did NOT suggest that the enemy has "unrestricted access" to our minds, neither that he is "in control". Certainly he doesn't. In modern language I would say, he has no "read access" but does have limited or restricted "write access" to certain files or folders, to certain parts of our mind. That is part of our fallen human nature, the sinfull nature that we are born in, if you want. Maybe he knows our "public key" and thus can send us messages, but he usually doesn't have the "private key" to also decrypt our thoughts. Maybe he uses biological ways yet unknown to us as Inge has suggested. Certainly, God is in control of his "access rights", especially if we allow Him to be the "Administrator", and He doesn't give him all the access, control and rights that he wants.

If our "firewall" is enforced and strong (our personal relationship with Christ, who in turn protects us with His Holy Spirit, and sanctifies us closing "ports") and our "anti-virus protection" activated and up to date (our knowledge of, and dependence on the Word of God we use to test everything that comes in or goes out), he certainly cannot break in (hack) and hijack our system, nor read any documents. But there might still be some SPAM messages getting through... And we need to be carefull not to believe them and be deceived. We need to use our brain as the SPAM filter, and I think the Scriptures should also be used for providing the defining criterions for this SPAM filter.

However, if we forget to activate or update the anti-virus protection (the Holy Scriptures, testing by it everything that comes in) and forget to search the whole hard disk for viruses from time to time, than we are in danger of viruses, troyans etc. (false teachings, evil spirits...) to infect us and spread in the system; they can also infect other systems in the network (the church) if they are not well protected, too.
And I am afraid this is exactly what is happening in pentecostal and charismatic groups.

During certain spiritualistic activities Satan might gain some read access, and even "unrestricted access" and "full control" over the mind. If such activities have happened in the past, or have been performed by one's parents or grandparents, he might have more rights on our system as usual. Only God can restrict him then.

Other related quotes from sister White:
If Satan can tempt us by subtile deceptions of false teachings, and even by strong supernatural deceptions approaching us from the outside (e.g. Satan appearing as an angel of God in the temtations of Jesus in Matthew 4; dead loved ones appearing to us and offering to help and guide us; Satan appearing as the returning Christ; appearances of Mary), deceptions that can ONLY be discovered as such if tested by the Word of God, what would be the difference if a deception comes from the "inside", through ideas, impressions, and ... dreams? Als long as we have the Holy Scriptures availlable to test their truth, authenticity and credibility, God might allow Satan to use this kind of temptation, too. That's my opinion.

Being the computer/technology nerd-ess that I am, I liked this analogy and explanation. Very good. Carry on.

[saharafan]

"DREAMS & VISIONS" : Some selected quotations from sister White.

(Note of explanation: I don't want to suggest that I believe that the friend of sister Barbara is a false prophet, this is not at all true! I love and respect her as my sister in the Lord, and I would love to get to know her personally, learn more about her experience and fellowship with her. I am also not really 100 % convinced that her dreams and auditions are NOT from the Lord, and I want to be careful. However, based on the information available in Barbara's first posting, it seems to me personally as very likely that her friend has been deceived. But that little information that sister Barbara told us is NOT really enough for me to come to a final conclusion for myself, without knowing the sister, and the whole situation and context. As of now, I therefore don't ascribe any importance to these revelations at all, I don't want to be influenced by them in any way. The following quotations from Ellen White only serve the single purpose to show that this possibility exists, that Satan CAN give dreams to upright and godly Christians; at least, sister White does NOT critize the character, life or faith of those believers that have received visions or dreams and that she refered to in those statements; however, she warns them (and us) not to follow those dreams and revelations, since they didn't come from God. Emphasis in the quotations is mine.)

I have no hesitancy in saying that Anna's visions are not of God. The dreams that the members of your family have had are a deception of Satan. ... {1888 697.2}
Satan saw that he could work upon your fruitful imagination, and lead you, with others, into his net. ... On page 8 you present Anna's vision in regard to a certain woman as a confirmation of your theory that probation would end in October, 1884. ... In the next paragraph you give Anna's dream in regard to her father. Neither has this any weight, nor the dream your wife has had. They are all false. {1888 697.3}

Many times I have been sent to different places with the message, "I have a work for you to do in that place; I will be with you." When the occasion came, the Lord gave me a message for those who were having false dreams and visions, and in the strength of Christ I bore my testimony at the Lord's bidding. . . . {Mar 155.1}
During the past forty-five years, I have had to meet persons claiming to have from God messages of reproof to others. This phase of religious fanaticism has sprung up again and again since 1844. Satan has worked in many ways to establish error. Some things spoken in these visions came to pass; but many things--in regard to the time of Christ's coming, the end of probation, and the events to take place--proved utterly false. . . . {Mar 155.2}
"Take heed therefore how ye hear" (Luke 8:18), is an admonition of Christ. . . . Examine closely, "prove all things" (1 Thess. 5:21). . . . This is the counsel of God; shall we heed it? {Mar 155.3}

There will be false dreams and false visions, which have some truth, but lead away from the original faith. The Lord has given men a rule by which to detect them: "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them" (Isa. 8:20). {Mar 192.4}
As we near the end of time, falsehood will be so mingled with truth, that only those who have the guidance of the Holy Spirit will be able to distinguish truth from error. We need to make every effort to keep the way of the Lord. We must in no case turn from His guidance to put our trust in man. . . . Those who are guided by the Word of the Lord will discern with certainty between falsehood and truth, between sin and righteousness. {Mar 192.5}

The multitude of dreams arise from the common things of life, with which the Spirit of God has nothing to do. There are also false dreams, as well as false visions, which are inspired by the spirit of Satan. But dreams from the Lord are classed in the word of God with visions and are as truly the fruits of the spirit of prophecy as visions. {1T 569.2}

Satan would like nothing better than to call minds away from the word, to look for and expect something outside of the word to make them feel. They should not have their attention called to dreams or visions. {HM, December 1, 1894 par. 7}

Please read also SELECTED MESSAGES Book 2 Chapter 11, and perhaps other chapters like 5, 8, 9, 10 etc.

As a consequence, it is NOT enough to simply examine the charakter, lifestile and acts, the "fruits" of the person receiving a dream or vision, or a "message from God", and her confession and practice of her faith; it is equaly important to evaluate and examine the message given itself, the contents of the dream or vision, based on the Bible.
If this test should fail, it is the message that has to be rejected and not the person receiving it who has simply been a victim of another satanic attack of deception. But without a sound application of this test, no message should be accepted as coming from God and acted upon; this would be very dangeous.

Hope this helps.

[summertime]

I'll deal with one point now:

Several of us noted that "Linda left Danny" is misleading. Barbara pointed out that it could be interpreted to match the facts. Now, in my experience, God does not make misleading statements. He knows that we are but dust, and His words are usually most accurately intepreted in the most straightforward way. That's why that sentence troubles me. The most straightforward reading would indicate that Linda wilfully left Danny. The use of language the recipient of the dream did not understand is troubling along these same lines -- it's not God's usual way of working.

[/quote] Hi, Inga. I appreciated the way in which you explained your posting to me. I do not know the lady in question, but I will tell you that I had a friend who was badly mistreated and abused and her husband put her in a financially embarressing position. Eventually he put her in the position where she had no choice but to leave him and go to live with her parents. Yes, she left him. Why is it so bad for the lady to say that she was impressed 3 times that Linda had left Danny. She was forced to leave---so then we make it possible for Dr. Thompson and Danny and John L. to say that he had the right to divorce her and marry his sweetheart because of abandonment by Linda.

Does that mean that the lady could not have had such an experience.? And that maybe it may have been a Penticostal experience? Danny was sitting around on the set at campmeeting singing the song he had written about being alone around that same month. He even had me feeling sorry for him for a while. Right here in my own home I was asking' "Where is Linda?" And while this was going on I had people in my own church who had gone to campmeeting at 3ABN telling everyone that Linda had run away with a Docter from Nova Scotia. For a while I believed it and I could not figure out why Linda would have done such a thing. Now we know the truth. Danny's new wife was probably there at 3ABN campmeeting while he was crying and praising God for being with him while he was 'all alone'.

Now, we are talking about visions and dreams. For twenty years we have been listening to and believed that Danny had a vision (or a dream) (I think now I have heard it changed to an impression) and that he was to build a network for God. I am not going to say that it was and is not true. Like many other people I am afraid of stepping on the cause of God because 3ABN has become worldwide. So I will not say that 3ABN was not originated in a plan by God. OK. But, is it true that the stories that he told of miracles which were counterfeit were the beginning of the money pouring in to start and build up that network? If this is true, and I think that it was, then, according to a lot of posters on this forum, the whole experience that Danny had in vision of building a station, was a Pentecostal experience and just where does that lead us? Did God speak to him or didn't He? .Are we dealing with a whole Pentecostal experience here? I am holding my breath to hear what will come next.

[Clay]

okay but let's also be honest..... SHE SHOULD HAVE LEFT him..... yeah, I said it... the more I read about this dude, I am amazed that she stayed as long as she did.... again she should have left him....

now whut?

[summertime]

okay but let's also be honest..... SHE SHOULD HAVE LEFT him..... yeah, I said it... the more I read about this dude, I am amazed that she stayed as long as she did.... again she should have left him....

now whut?

Yes, Clay--she should have left him--probably a long time ago. The more we hear, the more we know that she should have left him long before she did. She tried to stick with her position as VP for the sake of 3ABN viewers, when she should have given it up for the sake of herself and her children.