The Dreams & Visions Concerning 3abn, A short letter from Barbara Kerr Options

[Green Cochoa]

This discussion has certainly wandered, but I want to add a short story to the concept of dreams and visions. First, God is not the author of confusion, but of power, love, and a sound mind.

I will never forget an experience I had while in high school. An issue of prime importance to me had been gnawing at my mind for a long time, and while the entire school was camped near the ocean during a special field trip, I had extra time to reflect upon it. It was a private matter, and I don't remember discussing it with anyone, though I may have shared it with my best friend and prayer partner of that year, in which case we would have prayed about it together.

I was in a cabin with three other guys, and awoke early in the morning before it was light. My pocket Bible was too small to read by the light of the street lamp outside the window, but with deep thoughts on my mind, and not wishing to waken the others by turning on the light, I could only kneel there on my bunk and pray. It may have been half an hour, or so, in prayer with God, before I fell asleep again. As I slept, I began to dream. It was an ordinary dream. It was the kind of dream with the usual nonsense of dreams. But, into this "ordinary" dream, stepped my angel! I could not see the angel in the dream, and never saw even so much as a silhouette, but it was the most unusual experience I have had in a dream. I just KNEW my angel was there! The dream sort of just went on hold in the angel's presence, as the angel approached me from behind. As the angel began to write upon my back, I became aware of having on a coat which I presumed I needed to remove so the angel's finger could be better felt, and so I struggled with it, but the angel did not wait for me to remove it, nor did I miss receiving the message with it on, but felt clearly the impressions upon my back.

When the angel had finished, I awoke, and it was still early. I lay awake thinking about it, and wondering whether I could have just dreamed such a thing, or if it was real--and if it was real, was it possible for the devil to give me such a dream? I was confused, because 1) I had never had such a thing happen to me before, 2) I had never actually "seen" the angel--so how did I know there was one?, 3) the dream had begun as plain and insignificant as any ordinary dream, and 4) the message was one of hope that the desire of my heart would be granted--so how did I know that I wasn't just trying to comfort myself? Perhaps I was a skeptic, a pessimist, or just lacking in faith. But I simply couldn't seem to believe with certainty that it was a message from God. Why should He pay any attention to sorry me?

The infinite God we serve knows our frame. He remembers that we are dust, and treats us with utmost tenderness and mercy. In my case, He anticipated my confusion, and gave me a second message that same morning, as only God can do. For worship that morning, the principal of the school gave a message about DREAMS and how God can and will use them to guide us at times! He had no knowledge of my experience, as I had not shared it with anyone. And he probably to this day has no idea of how his message encouraged a feeble-in-faith student that morning.

If it is God who gives the dream, it will be God who gives certainty to it. Confusion does not come from God. Many years passed following that dream before its message reached fulfillment. It did, however, come true, in God's timing. Praise God from whom all blessings flow!

"Ask, and you will receive.
Seek, and you will find.
Knock, and the door will be opened unto you."

[meadbd]

Welcome to the forum.... the motto "Sola Scriptura" has been given up long ago... for adventists it has become the bible and the writings of egw... check your 28 fundamentals.....
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"Seventh-day Adventists Believe...27"(page 227)
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"THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY AND THE BIBLE
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The writings of Ellen White are not a substitute for Scripture. They cannot be placed on the same level. The Holy Scriptures stand alone, the unique standard by which her and all other writings must be judged and to which they must be subject. "
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Now that is a true statement.

Bill

[princessdi]

Yes, that is what it states, but to often it is not put into practice.

Welcome to the forum.... the motto "Sola Scriptura" has been given up long ago... for adventists it has become the bible and the writings of egw... check your 28 fundamentals.....
==========================================================
"Seventh-day Adventists Believe...27"(page 227)
*************************************
"THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY AND THE BIBLE
-------------------------------------------
The writings of Ellen White are not a substitute for Scripture. They cannot be placed on the same level. The Holy Scriptures stand alone, the unique standard by which her and all other writings must be judged and to which they must be subject. "
==========================================================
Now that is a true statement.

Bill

[Voktar of Zargon]

Welcome to the forum.... the motto "Sola Scriptura" has been given up long ago... for adventists it has become the bible and the writings of egw... check your 28 fundamentals.....

I do not place my confidence in the bible, neither do I think it is the main way God reveals himself to us.....

I find it unbelievable that humans can meet, interact, get to know really well, and marry a person and in some cases stay married for decades, without ever reading a book about that person.... Kids don't read books about their parents to understand and have close relationships with them (when it happens that is).... yet there are those who believe that a great and all powerful Creator is limited to a book in His revelation to humankind. That somehow he cannot reveal himself and have an intimate relationship with us other than by us studying a book about him.....

I reject that picture cause it is wrong.... btjm...

Communication is such an imperfect thing. I’m afraid you reject a picture I never painted.
I never said that God was limited to the Bible, nor that He cannot reveal Himself in ways other than the Bible. God revealed Himself to me in a variety of ways before I was ever a Christian or had ever read the Bible – and still does.

I love my wife. However, I don’t think it would please her if I didn’t read a love letter from her or said that I didn’t trust it’s message, even though her signature was all over it.
I checked my copy of the 27 fundamentals (don’t have the 28 yet) and on page 227 it says, “Seventh-day Adventists fully support the Reformation principle of sola scriptura, The Bible as its own interpreter and the Bible alone as the basis of all doctrines.”
When and how did God tell you not to have confidence in the Bible? Did God reveal to you that it would be good for us all to do likewise or is this revelation just for you?

[Clay]

Communication is such an imperfect thing. I’m afraid you reject a picture I never painted.
I never said that God was limited to the Bible, nor that He cannot reveal Himself in ways other than the Bible. God revealed Himself to me in a variety of ways before I was ever a Christian or had ever read the Bible – and still does.

I love my wife. However, I don’t think it would please her if I didn’t read a love letter from her or said that I didn’t trust it’s message, even though her signature was all over it.
I checked my copy of the 27 fundamentals (don’t have the 28 yet) and on page 227 it says, “Seventh-day Adventists fully support the Reformation principle of sola scriptura, The Bible as its own interpreter and the Bible alone as the basis of all doctrines.”
When and how did God tell you not to have confidence in the Bible? Did God reveal to you that it would be good for us all to do likewise or is this revelation just for you?

I did not suggest that you painted the picture, simply that it existed.... Page 227 of the 28 fundies thats scary.....

God wants me to have confidence in Him..... period.... whatever God tells you or impresses you to do, it would be best for you to do that...... If he has not impressed you to do anything, that to would be between you and God...

[Denny]

Abraham knew God voice he even obeyed the command to sacrifice his son, ok there was no written 10 commandments then but I am sure they was some moral code around about killing people but he still went ahead cos He knew God's voice

[Clay]

Abraham knew God voice he even obeyed the command to sacrifice his son, ok there was no written 10 commandments then but I am sure they was some moral code around about killing people but he still went ahead cos He knew God's voice

some folks feel uncomfortable with that concept Denny.... there are even some who would suggest that the only way you would know God's voice is that it agrees with what the bible says.....

[Hersheys99]

QUOTE(Voktar of Zargon @ Aug 29 2006, 01:14 PM) *

Communication is such an imperfect thing. I’m afraid you reject a picture I never painted.
I never said that God was limited to the Bible, nor that He cannot reveal Himself in ways other than the Bible. God revealed Himself to me in a variety of ways before I was ever a Christian or had ever read the Bible – and still does.

I love my wife. However, I don’t think it would please her if I didn’t read a love letter from her or said that I didn’t trust it’s message, even though her signature was all over it.
I checked my copy of the 27 fundamentals (don’t have the 28 yet) and on page 227 it says, “Seventh-day Adventists fully support the Reformation principle of sola scriptura, The Bible as its own interpreter and the Bible alone as the basis of all doctrines.”
When and how did God tell you not to have confidence in the Bible? Did God reveal to you that it would be good for us all to do likewise or is this revelation just for you?

The problem I have with that statement is that it comes across as saying to me that unless I read my Bible then I can't know God!! Sorry that ain't right anyway you cut it. Yes I believe in the Bible & I do read it BUT I don't have to read it to have a personal relationship with God & to know what he wants. Maybe that is why he made us with a conscience & he can put those things in our minds that he wants us to know/hear.

[Barbara Kerr]

The problem I have with that statement is that it comes across as saying to me that unless I read my Bible then I can't know God!! Sorry that ain't right anyway you cut it. Yes I believe in the Bible & I do read it BUT I don't have to read it to have a personal relationship with God & to know what he wants. Maybe that is why he made us with a conscience & he can put those things in our minds that he wants us to know/hear.

Hi Hershey,

Hmmmm.......I'm not sure I can agree with that statement. I firmly believe that we need to be using our Bibles as our "swords of the Spirit" (Eph.6:17) in order to protect ourselves from things like compromise and false truths. I also believe that Satan is happy when we don't spend time daily in the Scriptures. We are much easier to deceive when we leave ourselves unprotected in this way.

If we don't know the scriptures, the "things" being put into our minds may not be coming from God. So it's really a circle of spending time in prayer, reading our Bibles, serving others and then reading supplemental Christian books. I know for me personally, when I miss out on my prayer and/or Bible time, my whole day just seems to go awry.

I do believe there are people that have never read a Bible and still they know God. The mission field is full of stories like that. There are also mentally handicapped folk that have not been able to read Bibles, but God draws them to His bossom.

[Clay]

Hi Hershey,

Hmmmm.......I'm not sure I can agree with that statement. I firmly believe that we need to be using our Bibles as our "swords of the Spirit" (Eph.6:17) in order to protect ourselves from things like compromise and false truths. I also believe that Satan is happy when we don't spend time daily in the Scriptures. We are much easier to deceive when we leave ourselves unprotected in this way.

If we don't know the scriptures, the "things" being put into our minds may not be coming from God. So it's really a circle of spending time in prayer, reading our Bibles, serving others and then reading supplemental Christian books. I know for me personally, when I miss out on my prayer and/or Bible time, my whole day just seems to go awry.

I do believe there are people that have never read a Bible and still they know God. The mission field is full of stories like that. There are also mentally handicapped folk that have not been able to read Bibles, but God draws them to His bossom.

deceived how? suppose it was God's design that this particular day goes awry? How do you know its not a teachable moment? The bible is good but it cannot replace communicating with God.... likewise the bible has no advice or recommendations on what you as a parent should do if your child is strung out on crack, or in an abusive relationship, or is pregnant out of wedlock......

[Hersheys99]

I do believe there are people that have never read a Bible and still they know God. The mission field is full of stories like that. There are also mentally handicapped folk that have not been able to read Bibles, but God draws them to His bossom.

Hi Barbara

See that is where I don't get it. These people can still know God but if we have access to a Bible we can't know God without reading it. Sounds double standard to me.

[Clay]

Hi Barbara

See that is where I don't get it. These people can still know God but if we have access to a Bible we can't know God without reading it. Sounds double standard to me.

Abraham had no bible, Noah had no bible, Cain, and Abel had no bible, the generations of people between Adam and Abraham had no bible.... the population that existed outside of Israel had no bible or the writings of Moses, yet I am positive that God revealed and had relationship with those people...

We have a bible and it is an aid, but it is NOT God, it may give some insight into how God interacts with humans, but it is not God..... nor is it a magical talisman..... some seem to believe it is....

[Barbara Kerr]

deceived how? suppose it was God's design that this particular day goes awry? How do you know its not a teachable moment? The bible is good but it cannot replace communicating with God.... likewise the bible has no advice or recommendations on what you as a parent should do if your child is strung out on crack, or in an abusive relationship, or is pregnant out of wedlock......

Good point Clay,

I just find that most of my "teachable" moments happened because I separated myself from God. I'm not splitting hairs here, I do understand what your saying.

I think Psalm is full of advice for people in the above listed problems. You just have to find it. (I love David -- he is my favorite Bible character)

[Clay]

Good point Clay,

I just find that most of my "teachable" moments happened because I separated myself from God. I'm not splitting hairs here, I do understand what your saying.

I think Psalm is full of advice for people in the above listed problems. You just have to find it. (I love David -- he is my favorite Bible character)

cool... and we are probably on the same page in a general sense, I was just wondering or thinking out loud if you will....

[Barbara Kerr]

Hi Barbara

See that is where I don't get it. These people can still know God but if we have access to a Bible we can't know God without reading it. Sounds double standard to me.

I think with the millions of people out there, and EVERY ONE OF THEM is at a different place spiritually, it is impossible for everyone to understand or agree on what connects them to God.

When I was in my 20's my devotional time was practically nil. I took my Bible to church, but I rarely read it. It was boring to me. I had a very strong faith and I prayed often, but it was nothing compared to the experience I have today.

God was with me then and He loved me just as much as He loves me now. Do I think that God is always moving us in the direction that He wants His children to go? Absolutely. Would I want to go backwards to the relationship I had with Him then? No way. Does God want me to grow even more from where I am today? Sure He does.

So there isn't an answer that everyone will agree upon. Every person is at a different place in their Christian walk based on their personal experiences. It's okay! Those that rely heavily upon the Bible do so for a reason based upon their experiences. Those that rely heavily on prayer without the Bible do so for a reason, ALSO based on their experiences. And those of us that rely heavily on prayer AND the Bible do so because they can't imagine life any other way.

It doesn't make one wrong and the other right. It makes us human instead of machines. I don't know about you, but I like being a little bit different than everyone else. God made us this way. PTL I just love Him so much!