The Dreams & Visions Concerning 3abn, A short letter from Barbara Kerr Options

[Clay]

Children have relationships with God.... long before they understand the bible or what is contained therein... How does God reveal himself to a child? It is not through the written word.... My relationship with God started when I was a child long before I was able to understand the bible, yet I understood Him as he revealed himself to me... as I child I become attuned to his voice, his leading, his way, pick a phrase if you will.... so I can say with certainty that God can and does communicate with us without the aid of "the bible."

The bible gives a story of a man who walked with God, and his walk was so close that God took him and he was never seen again.... That man had no bible, BUT he definitely had God.....

So I say again... the relationship is first and foremost, the everything else has its place....

Your mileage may vary...

[meadbd]

In fact saharafan, I disagree with the whole premise of your recent comment..... that all spiritual experiences be judged via the bible? I think you have placed too much on the bible..... anything spiritual must be judged by the Holy Spirit..... He does communicate with us.... or don't you believe that?
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If you don't judge all spiritual experiences by the Bible, to what do you judge them?

You say, "by the Holy Spirit". But it is by comparing what the S(s)pirit tells us to the Bible that we know just what spirit is impressing us. For the Christian, the Bible is the sole authority in all spiritual matters. Without the Bible we have very little knowledge of what God wants us to do in our life. Our sinful condition and our need of a Savior is clear to us ONLY from the Bible. Yes, nature tells us that God created all the beauty we see around us (Rom. 1) but nature does not tell us of our need for redemption and reformation. As was stated, it is very dangerous to trust our feelings without checking them against the Bible. As Jesus said of the Holy Spirit, "He will testify of Me".
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And what do you know about Jesus if not from the Bible?...Nothing.

Without God's Holy Word as our guide we have no anchor-no reference-no absolute to pattern our life.
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Praise His Name that He has given us His Word to live by!

This post has been edited by meadbd: Aug 27 2006, 10:04 AM

[husbandoftheyear]

In addition, we only should expect God to communicate directly in a supernatural way with us if we previously have already fully accepted all His previous revelations in the Bible and the writings of Ellen White and are following through with the teachings of those divinely inspired books.

I must disagree on the whole account, but since Clay has brought up other points, I'll only add one.

Many Christian people have never even heard of Ellen White. Are you saying that the only people found worthy of divine communication are SDAs?

[saharafan]

Children have relationships with God.... long before they understand the bible or what is contained therein... How does God reveal himself to a child? It is not through the written word.... My relationship with God started when I was a child long before I was able to understand the bible, yet I understood Him as he revealed himself to me... as I child I become attuned to his voice, his leading, his way, pick a phrase if you will.... so I can say with certainty that God can and does communicate with us without the aid of "the bible."

The bible gives a story of a man who walked with God, and his walk was so close that God took him and he was never seen again.... That man had no bible, BUT he definitely had God.....

So I say again... the relationship is first and foremost, the everything else has its place....

Your mileage may vary...

Dear Clay,
Apparently you were blessed to have had godly parents who taught you biblical principles from childhood on, told you "Bible stories" and taugh you how to pray and have a living intimate personal relationship with God, even before you could read the Bible - I was not that priviledged.
So this seems to be where you come from. Let me explain where I come from so that you can see that much of our different perceptions obviously is due to "where we each come from".

My parents have always been and are still convinced atheists/agnostics. I got to know Jesus primarily through the Bible when I was a teenager. There was no clear supernatural event leading to my conversion, besides perhaps God arranging "coincidences" so that I would meet an SDA pastor by surprise, who impressed me a lot with his character, and later on Jesus speaking to my heart and touching it through the Bible. (This is how I personally experience(d) God speaking to me, and therefore the Bible is also the basis for my personal relationship with him, which is entertained through Bible study and, certainly, prayer.)
At the time when I studied the Bible with this pastor, I also got to know some evangelical friends, church leaders and theologians, wo sincerely challenged this Adventist interpretation of the Bible that I was studying with this pastor. They thoroughly challenged my newly accepted beliefs concerning the state of the dead, the Sabbath, the Law, Sanctuary doctrine and pre-advent Jugement, Ellen White etc. God didn't give me a dream or vision to resolve those challenging questions. (I didn't ask Him for one, that's right.) So what I did, I studied the Bible for myself independently (but under prayer) and in debt on those subjets, comparing the aguments of both sides, looking for the answer, searching for "truth". I am thankful for this exerience because this routed me deeply in the biblical basis of our doctrine and gave me a hunger to know more which finally led me to study Theology at our Adventist seminary in Austria. Again, the Bible was the center of my Christian life and experience.
Not long after this experience and my baptism, there was another young man studying with us and visiting our Adventist youth program. But after some time he was led away by a pentecostal friend of his. From then on, whenever he came to our youth meetings, he always wanted to introduce us to his new-found pentecostal believes and experiences. I liked him and felt sorry for him and wanted to help him. So I accepted his invitation to visit with him some deeply pentecostal churches. (I was the only one of our youth group willing to do this.) It was a very decicive experience for me, and a dangerous one too, I admid. This is where I got introduced to charismatic and pentecostal doctrine and worship in the first place, which in turn led me to read several books about this phenomenon and study the Bible about the "Gift of Tounges" etc. I will relate the most striking experience I had, at a special "healing seminar" this friend had invited me to where an American preacher taught a large audience how to do miracles and how to heal the sick through prayer. The preacher was more than obese, I guess he had at least about 200 kg of bodyweight. When he walked, it looked very funny. He was extremely proud and presumtious in the way and manner he was talking. He emphasized signs and wonders and "speaking in tounges". Among other things, he told us that one day he was very heartsick, the doctors told him he would die very soon, they can't do anything. But God healed him miraculously and the doctors were more than surprised and when they checked his heart they found that it was "the healthiest and strongest heart they have ever seen". How that relates to his body weight and obviously unchanged lifestile I don't know. He also claimed to have raised a dead child; a car accident in from of him happened, a child was overrun by a big truck, the head of the child came under the tires and was completely smashed. Then he arrived at the scene, stopped, and resurrected that child through prayer, the head and the whole body was miraculously made whole, there was no wound or injury left on that child. The seminar attendence was in awe, hanging on his lips and they believed unquestioningly every single word he said. Yes, he taught them how to heal, calling volunteers and sick people to come forward, and instructing the volunteers to lay hands on and heal the physically sick "in the name of Jesus", and most of the time it worked, they were healed right in front of us; if it didn't work, the spiritual attitude of the volunteer was the problem, we were told. During the time they prayed for the sick, the congregation prayed too, most of them speaking in "toungs". It was an extemly powerfull and power-filled emotional atmosphere in that room, I could even say I felt a spiritual precence that was even difficult for me to resist. But I felt this spiritual presence as something very strange and dangerous to me. (I certainly prayed too, silently for protection.)
This miracle preacher-healer claimed that God speakes directly to him, that he often hears the voice of the Holy Spirit telling him what to do or giving him messages for other people or churches, and that he has a special connection and place with God. He might also have mentioned that he receives visions & dreams, I don't remember that particular detail. Once, he literally said the following, I won't forget that, pointing to his stomach: "Some people think that I am thick; but that's not true! I am not thick, I am pregnant! I am pregnant with the Trinity! I am pregnant with the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit! They are all present here in my stomach...". Everyone in that church found that funny and was laughing, except me, I was deeply shocked.
I couldn't convince this friend who invited me there that this is not the authentic Holy Spirit of the Bible doing those miracles through this presumptious and blasphemic preacher. His personal "experience of the Holy Spirit in him" was more important than any argument from Scripture. And this was not my only experience with Pentecostals, including pastors, so far. Every time it was the same, although they used the Bible in their sermons (usually in a very superficial way) and confessed to belief in it, it had no real authority over their experiences, nor over their doctrine and teaching, because, as a pastor told me once, "the Holy Spirit would show me if I should be wrong". They also feel save from being deceived by Satan because, as I experienced in one of their "Bible study groups", they address Satan directly in their prayers, condamning him (something that even Jesus refused to do), and commanding him to leave them alone and flee them, actually laughing at him because he is a loser and has now power over them...

During those teenage years I also had two friends who were devoted desciples of Rudolph Steiner and his "Anthroposophy", a German off-shoot of Madame Blavatsky's Theosophy. I had a lot of discussions with them too and wanted to help them see the truth in the Bible instead of in their (occult) spiritual exercises and experiences, and Steiner's teachings. Didn't work either.

You see, that is where I come from and why I am so careful and emphatic about the Bible as the basis of our faith, experience, and relationship with God, and easily alarmed when someone plays down its importance and role.

By the way, the first one of the 28 SDA Fundamental Beliefs states clearly that "The Holy Sciptures are... the test of experience...". The book "Seventh-day Adventists believe..." says on pp. 13-14: "Finally, the Scriptures retain authority even over the gifts that come from the Holy Spirit, including guidance through the gift of prophecy or speaking in tounges... The gifts of the Spirit do not supercede the Bible; indeed, they must be tested by the Bible, and if not in accord with it, they must be discarded as not genuine. [Isa. 8:20 quoted]"

However, when teaching or preaching, I do always emphasize the importance of, and the need for, our personal intimate realtionship with God as the most important thing for each one of us, and this relationship is based on both, Bible and Prayer. That's why my second most important topic usually is the Bible, which will lead us to Jesus and into that close relationship. Prayer is equaly important for this relationship, that's true, but the Bible is the basis of knowing God, Who he is, How he is, Where to find him, How to get to know him, and What he wants for me and from me. And without knowing this I cannot have a true relationship with the one true God, the God of the Bible.

Nevertheless, I acknowledge that some people are more sensitive to impressions by the (true) Holy Spirit on their minds than others. And I do agree that prayer should not be one-way communication but we should also listen to God "talking to us" during prayer, impressing our minds with certain things or thougts, thus having true communion with Him.
I remember for example pastor Kurt Hasel in a seminar about Prayer telling that he has the good habitude not only to aks God in prayer about important decissions but then to wait (sometimes for weeks and longer) until he receives a response from God what decission to take by clearly impressing his mind in a way that he is convinced without doubt that this is God's voice. By experience and with the time he has learned to "know the voice of God" and discern it from his own thoughts. I accept that. But 1) This kind of communication is only private and individual, only concerning himself or perhaps his immediate family that he has responsibiliy for; he doesn't become a "prophet", doesn't have "visions and dreams" and doesn't receive messages for others, or revelations about others. 2) As far as I know him, he would certainly agree with me that the Bible is also the basis and supreme judge for his own faith and experience, and whenever the Bible (or EGW) give clear counsel on something, he accepts this councel first and doesn't need to ask God about it. I repeat what I said in my former post: No moral and doctrinal decissions should be made based on theses impressions by the Spirit without thoroughly consulting the Bible about the issue. 3) He said that it took some time for him to get used to God's voice and be able to discern it clearly; this personal way of experiencing God is based on a life experience of a close walk with God based on the Bible and a faith and life deeply rooted in Scripture.
(Other people here have already mentioned their past experiences of feeling sudden strong impressions they believed came from God and when following them they were either protected from serious harm, or God could use them in a mighty way as witnesses for persons they would not have met otherwise etc. I have no problem with that, either.)

On the other side, in Barbara Kerr's brief first post she told us that her friend, when suddently hearing that voice "Linda left Danny", was not at all sure if this voice would come from God. She seems not to be used to "hearing God's voice" in this described way. Or perhaps this voice was of a different kind, or from a different source???

[saharafan]

I must disagree on the whole account, but since Clay has brought up other points, I'll only add one.

Many Christian people have never even heard of Ellen White. Are you saying that the only people found worthy of divine communication are SDAs?

No, definitely not; I said "WE" and "US", referring to us personally who have access to the Bible and to the writings of Ellen White, and confess to believe in them. It is true that I referred to Seventh-day Adventist here, as far as Ellen White's writings are concerned; you could apply the statement also to Christians in general as far as the Bible only is concerned. But I do believe that the SDA church is God's special end-time remnant body of believers as of today. And by "communicate diretly in a supernatural way", I meant visions and dreams, or typical prophetic messages, that concern others, a group of believers (not personal issues of the receipient), as a fulfillment of Joel 2:28-29, and in reference to additonal truth that is not already contained in the Bible.

But you can also interprete my statement in the following way: Before God will give us (=humanity) additional knowledge by supernatural means that supercedes the one revealed in the Bible and the writings of EGW, we have to accept and live out (put into practice) that what He has already revealed to us in the past.

I admid that this statement wasn't very clear and can easily be misunderstood.

[brownnectar]

That was a wonderful testimony Sahara. It also was packed with a lot of truth. It gave me some things to think about. Thank You!

[calvin]

Saharafan, thank you for sharing this testimony. The last few posts by you and Watchbird have been very inspiring for me to read. What you have presented makes any argument for a diminished importance of the Bible in the lives of Christians weak in comparison.

[Clay]

Saharafan, thank you for sharing this testimony. The last few posts by you and Watchbird have been very inspiring for me to read. What you have presented makes any argument for a diminished importance of the Bible in the lives of Christians weak in comparison.

no one has suggested that the bible have diminished importance.... however I am saying that there are those who can becoming overly dependent on the bible that they miss interacting with the God that the bible points a believer too..... I am also saying that there are those who when it comes to the bible are scholars, and can run circles around the average church member, yet they don't necessarily have a relationship with God....

people's experiences may vary...

[Vada]

no one has suggested that the bible have diminished importance.... however I am saying that there are those who can becoming overly dependent on the bible that they miss interacting with the God that the bible points a believer too..... I am also saying that there are those who when it comes to the bible are scholars, and can run circles around the average church member, yet they don't necessarily have a relationship with God....

people's experiences may vary...

Greetings to our brothers and sisters in America and from wherever else. We discovered bsda only about a month ago. This is my first appearance here.

I appreciate your explanation above, Clay, and the general direction of the discussion concerning dreams, visions, and how God communicates to us. I have lived through an experience of my own, but what I want to say here this time is perhaps more just the outcome of that experience. I have had no special dreams or visions, I assuredly lay no claims to being a prophet, I have never knowingly seen or spoken with an angel. I serve a living God who—as for you—comforts me with His presence, covers me with His blood, speaks to me through nature, through “revelation”, through providential happenings, and by His influence upon my heart. I know the importance of continually touching base with my Lord in prayer and Bible study, and of exchanging with fellow believers.

"The Face of Adventism." I speak to the claim that Danny is “the face of Adventism”—or on the other hand to the protest that he is not that face. It is my belief that either way the claim falls short of the truth. 3ABN sold a husband-wife team to the world as “the face of Adventism.” That team was Danny and Linda together. (Probably that has been said before. I just can’t remember.) No doubt to thousands if not millions of viewers around the globe, Danny and Linda were “televangelists” viewed and loved as Mr and Mrs Three Angels Messages, or Mr and Mrs Seventh-day Adventist. Then suddenly Linda was no more. Even though our Thiacom 3 satellite dish linking us to 3ABN was only installed on 12 November 2003, we saw enough to cause us to ask questions. 3ABN maybe underestimated the strength of the feelings that would arise in the minds and hearts of viewers as a result of the divorce and Linda’s being so decisively separated from 3ABN.

To have gone as big as 3ABN has gone, and to present on it as Mr and Mrs Seventh-day Adventist, is an extremely serious position to take under God before the world. It is certain He loves. It is certain also He will not be mocked.

We know Brandy is a precious child of God, too. But there is a painful situation that has not yet worked itself through. Our earnest prayers are that our Lord will judge all things and all persons concerned with the right blend of justice and mercy in each instance, for His name and work’s sake.

My personal opinion is that it would be good if when all the dust is settled, we still have 3ABN as well as Hope, and other radio and TV stations too. History has proved over and again that “independent ministry” OR official church organization, conservative or liberal or whatever, NO mere mortal or committee of mere mortals is able to handle too much power.

A Symbolic Message. Marriage and divorce are major biblical symbols telling how God relates to His church at any given time. When a marriage is given prominence, as was Danny and Linda’s, it grants a special opportunity to God to speak a message symbolically. It also grants the devil a chance to defile that symbol. But God always has the last say. He can be counted upon to marvelously work all things together for the good of those whom He loves. “For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.” 2 Cor 13:8. I believe God has allowed the prominence given Danny and Linda’s marriage and divorce, to help shape a parable to speak a most urgent message to the church and the world.

Parallel and Complementary Story From Australia. In the 1980’s a great tragedy in Australia threw Pastor Michael Chamberlain and his wife Lindy into the glare of publicity, as Pr and Mrs Seventh-day Adventist. So far as I am able to understand the facts of the still unfolding saga of Danny and Linda’s divorce and subsequent happenings at and revelations concerning 3ABN and the church, I cannot help but see some striking parallels with Australia’s Chamberlain drama. I believe America’s Danny and Linda story is complementary to Australia’s Michael and Lindy drama.

I have, by the way, written a book on the Chamberlain drama, entitled, ROCK OF AGES: The Azaria Chamberlain Story Parallels.

A different set of circumstances propelled Michael and Lindy Chamberlain into place as Pr and Mrs Seventh-day Adventist of Australia. 17 August 1980, just after the famous 11-15 August 1980 Glacier View meetings in USA, baby daughter Azaria was killed by a dingo at Ayers Rock (now Uluru), an awe-inspiring rock-mountain in Central Australia, where the family had gone for a brief holiday break. Ayers Rock is a geographic icon of Australia, a monolith surrounded by vast red desert plains, a place of quiet mystery and great symbolic significance. Local Aborigines have their legends about creation. They believe their dead ancestors live in Uluru, and are waiting to emerge. The whole scene prompts questions about origins, time and eternity.

Michael and Lindy’s story became known as Australia’s “trial of the century”, “the worst miscarriage of justice in the history of the nation”, “a defining moment in Australian history”, and a “top of the tree media event.”

The twentieth anniversary of the birth and death of Azaria occurred right in the middle of the 100 days Olympic Torch Run of the year 2000, which run commenced in high ceremony at Ayers Rock, when the Olympic flame arrived there from Olympia in Greece. City newspapers noted the anniversary of Azaria’s birth and death, with some big re-appraisals of this famous trial. At the Sydney Olympics of that year, the world hailed the new millennium.

It is not an insignificant thing to say that America’s Mr and Mrs Seventh-day Adventist drama, with a different emphasis, seems to be playing out a complementary role to Australia’s Pr and Mrs Seventh-day Adventist of the 1980’s. But the Danny-Lindy-3ABN saga is more in-house, - at least at the moment.

Do an internet search on the words such as “lindy chamberlain parallels” and you will find numerous stories and causes claiming to hold similarities to the Chamberlain drama. This drama is often quoted in our country as THE example of a judicial mistake, THE trial proving a whole country can nail the guilty tag upon somebody and be wrong. But I believe the parallel of parallels can best be recognized by Seventh-day Adventists. When all the elements of the Chamberlain drama are identified it is Adventists of all Christians who have the history and light to see the parallels and pointers to endtime Bible prophecy. They are the ones best placed to decode when those elements are explained as Bible symbols. What unravels is a message of momentous import. I believe God has over-ruled Satan and designed happenings to tell this symbolic message. He has also led me on quite a journey to discover these parallels. Others have apparently seen glimpses of their existence, and before me.

The elements of the Lindy Chamberlain trial parallel and point to the ending elements of the prophetic allegory of Revelation 12, which tells the story of the drama of the ages, the great controversy between Christ and Satan, good and evil. Here the stage is set for the final crisis described in Revelation 13 and 14.

It is one thing to see a story having a parallel here and there to a Bible prophecy. It is another when one stumbles over these parallels at every turn, and providences bearing relation to the parallel being studied happen every time, and every occasion I make a move to tell this parallels story, more awesome providences occur. Studying these parallels has been a thrilling but sobering experience that has brought Bible symbols and Revelation 12 alive for me. I can’t believe this experience was meant for me alone.

In the 1980’s newspapers everywhere said that Azaria (a feminine form of Azariah, meaning “blessed of God”) meant “sacrifice in the wilderness.” They confused it with Azazel the scapegoat. At Ayres Rock, where baby Azaria was killed and taken by a dingo, there is a legend of dingo called Kulpunya who is an evil spirit of death. The media sought to clear the dingo’s name and declare Michael and Lindy to be the most evil couple in Australia’s history. It is possible that in the 1980’s Australia’s frantic search through the Bible to find a story which might d--- the Chamberlains was based upon the recognition some had of parallels with the prophetic allegory of Revelation 12, where an evil red dragon seeks to devour the newborn baby of an innocent woman clothed with the sun. Some big churches do not see this woman as a mere symbol. Religious prejudice could not allow that a woman from the little-known Seventh-day Adventist Church could before the nation assume a symbolic role parallel to the Revelation 12 woman. If people did not think such thoughts, it is certain Satan would have seen the symbolism.

It is interesting that John Bryson’s book, Evil Angels—which is the classic work upon which the award-winning film by this name is based—makes only two mentions of the words “evil angels” in the body of the book. John Bryson is not an Adventist, yet both of these mentions come in relation to the warfare of evil angels against the Seventh-day Adventist church and Ellen White. See John Bryson, Evil Angels, pages 9 and 254. Furthermore, the cover of the first edition of this book shows a picture of a black shadow of an evil-looking dingo cast over red desert soil. Together with words reminding of baby Azaria Chamberlain’s death at Ayers Rock in central Australia, 17 August 1980, and appealing Lindy’s innocence in regard to the judgment of murder, Bible students could not escape seeing something of the parallels with Revelation 12.

The history described in Revelation 12 is that which, if understood, will save from deception in the last terrible conflict of this world, as prophesied and described in Revelation 13 and 14. “Three Angels Broadcasting Network” is named after the last message of mercy to be given this world, that found in Revelation 14:6-12. Revelation 12 sets the stage for the telling of the three angels’ messages.

If non-Adventists have sensed something of a supernatural presence in the Chamberlain drama pointing to Revelation 12, how much better equipped are Seventh-day Adventists to see those pointers, since in their history is the living out of the sweet-in-the-mouth, bitter-in-the-belly experience prophesied in Revelation 10, and producing a people who studied out the sanctuary doctrine! How much more culpable are Seventh-day Adventists if they miss hearing the message of Providence in a happening! I reject the charge that to make such statements gives evidence of a problem with ego. The Seventh-day Adventist movement HAS been entrusted by God with much light. To say that does not mean we are unaware that there are outstanding Christians scattered through the Sunday-keeping churches, and many such persons are even way ahead on SOME areas of truth, ministry and witness. God will help us to fully recognize each other at the last.

Michael and Lindy Chamberlain, family, friends, eye witnesses and those involved were given a trial by fire, kangaroo court and almost every other kind of court of the nation. Their case was front page news in city newspapers for a decade. The impact upon the Seventh-day Adventist Church was huge, in ways both good and bad. Voices from the church and the secular world often endeavoured to shut down the public debate. (We’re hearing some of those same reasons being given to try and shut down the bsda discussion on the 3ABN crisis.) But it was like trying to stop a feeding frenzy. (May there be no elements of “feeding frenzy” here.) Sometimes Michael and Lindy tried to help by hiding from the public eye and just going quiet. They were inevitably forced to surface again. Too many other people and issues were involved. Many eye witnesses supportive of the Chamberlain version of the facts were also being widely and falsely implicated as liars. Pressing questions were being raised by honest people from all walks of society, all churches, in places high and low. How could a justice system get it so wrong? (Again, we see shades of this scenario on this bsda site.)

I remember Michael Chamberlain once being asked by a TV reporter about the continuing crusade to clear the Chamberlain name. He replied to the effect, "Innocence is very important to innocent people." If Linda has not committed adultery, as evidence on bsda and elsewhere suggests, she does indeed deserve to have the guilty tag removed from her head. It is clear that as in the whole great controversy between Christ and Satan, God permits lesser dramas to play out as a means in itself of arresting attention, provoking enquiry, and leading minds out of darkness into the light. We can know He is never asleep at the switch and is in ultimate control of whatever transpires.

Those who do not seriously believe that Seventh-day Adventism is the remnant movement of the book of Revelation, called to “prophesy again” concerning the subject of the sanctuary and the investigative judgment, commissioned to preach the three angels’ messages to the world in preparation for Jesus’ second advent, blessed with a prophet to the Bible’s 2300 day prophecy, cannot understand. “It will be impossible for them to exercise the faith which is essential at this time, or to occupy the position which God designs them to fill. … It is of the utmost importance that all should thoroughly investigate these subjects …” The Great Controversy, pp. 488, 489.

In order to arouse enquiry and prompt such an investigation—where truth is searched out as for the pearl of great price—we can expect that the Master Teacher will intervene and speak to us by means of His best teaching methods. What are these methods? The method to which I refer is the only one in the here and now to which full justice is done to our Living God. It is where the message from nature, revelation, providence and the impressions of the Holy Spirit all coincide. They all speak as one. Then the message of the resulting parable or object lesson can have authority. It needs with joy to be heard, believed, obeyed—and shared—and the life-giving latter rain showers proceeding from God’s throne can come to water.

Christ’s Teaching Methods. Just before 586 BC when God withdrew from Jerusalem and Solomon’s temple, and inspired holy men to prophesy their destruction, He commanded Ezekiel, already in captivity in Babylon, to act out a parable as a sign. Ezekiel’s wife was “the desire of his eyes” as Solomon’s magnificent temple was the desire of Israel’s eyes. God said He was going to let Ezekiel’s apparently beautiful and much-loved wife die, and he, Ezekiel, was not to engage in the customary mourning rituals. She was, in fact, to function as a symbol of Solomon’s temple in which the Jews gloried. When the people enquired why Ezekiel was not weeping and mourning, he did as God instructed him and said to the effect, “Like my wife, Jerusalem and its temple are the desire of your eyes, the joy and pride of your lives, and a symbol of the bride of the one true God. As my wife has died, Jerusalem and its temple are going to be destroyed. As I, Ezekiel have not mourned for my wife, you must not weep for the temple and Jerusalem. God, who is greater than the temple, desires rather that you weep for your sins which have separated you from Him, and are the reason for all the desolation that has come upon Israel, Judah, Jerusalem and the temple.” As a sign that this was a parable from God, Ezekiel’s muteness at the time was cured when a messenger brought him news of the temple’s destruction. (See Eze 24:15-27)

What an unpopular, negative message Ezekiel was called to preach! Jerusalem, the temple and church structure were going to be destroyed! And what a heart-wrenching method of speaking that message, - choking back the grief and tears at the death of his cherished wife, and refraining from the customary mourning rituals! But apparently Ezekiel’s strange actions did have the desired effect of awakening the hoped-for spirit of inquiry.

The Linda-Danny-3ABN story would be based upon a different husband-wife illustration, but may it also do a work as a parable to awaken the spirit of inquiry.

In Bible times Christ the Master Teacher and Scriptwriter often taught salvation truths by means of parables and allegories, some acted (as in the sanctuary services), some based upon literal happenings, some given to prophets in dreams and visions, some based even upon fictitious stories such as that of the rich man and Lazarus. We have been much blessed as Elder Stephen Bohr has shown on 3ABN and Hope TV that the stories in the book of Genesis and elsewhere in the Old Testament, have a double function, one to record a literal happening in history, another to act as a drama symbolizing and prophesying a greater fulfillment in the future.

Stories functioning as parables are in fact one of Christ’s best teaching methods. They are based upon the well-recognized teaching maxim, “Proceed from the known to the unknown.” I believe the Master Teacher is not going to cease using parables as a teaching device in the endtimes, just when we most need to hear His voice. It is not only living prophets that can confirm a drama as sent of God. The words of dead prophets can do the same, as associated with living providences and the convicting power of the Holy Ghost.

What a means of communicating a message: to allow people to be obsessed with a drama in their own experience, then shape that drama to point to an already proven prophecy of the Bible!

“Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD: for I am married unto you…” Jer 3:14. “For thy Maker is thine husband: the LORD of hosts is his name…” Isa 54:5. We must be in that new Jerusalem said to be “prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.” Rev 21:2.

“A person who is entrusted with the pastoral office of the Word must be able to stand before a congregation and represent that Word rightly. To sabotage this trust is destructive of ministry and of the pastoral office. The ministry of a person is always representative and symbolic; and the pastor of a Christian congregation represents the headship and fatherhood of God.” (1 Cor. 4:14, 15; 1 Thess. 2:11; Eph. 5:1; 1 Tim. 3:5).” Dr C. Raymond Holmes, The Tip of an Iceberg: Biblical Authority, Biblical Interpretation, and the Ordination of Women in Ministry, Adventists Affirm and POINTER Publications, 1994, pp. 41, 42. And a wife symbolizes the church (Eph 5:21-33), of which the husband symbolizes the head. Each is committed to the other in deepest, self-sacrificing love. There are serious and solemn implications here. I believe these implications are being sensed at the moment by many 3ABN viewers and supporters, who love God with all their hearts, and are jealousy for the honour and prosperity of God’s cause.

Divorce and Death, Symbols of the Close of Probation. Again, I believe Providence is shaping a symbolic message by means of the Danny and Linda Shelton story, just as He did in the Michael and Lindy Chamberlain story. Adventism no doubt would be more receptive to this statement if it were not for the ugly divorce at the end of each story, especially, it seems, the Danny and Linda divorce. But Adventism should remember that divorce is one symbol of the close of probation, and this decisive moment in history is fast bearing down upon the world and the church. Christ, who is always “greater than the temple” (Matt 12:6), can be expected at this crisis hour to use every conceivable teaching device to warn of the need to get ready for this event, when Christ will finish His work as High Priest, the work of evangelism will be over, and so every last earthly church structure will become redundant in God’s plan. Pray we do not run ahead of God’s leading here. Neither must we lag behind. Are we prepared theologically, philosophically, psychologically and in practice for this great moment in history? It’s coming, right after the loud cry!

Yes, I believe we need to look at these two stories as parables, even part of the same parable: Mr and Mrs Seventh-day Adventist in USA, and Pr and Mrs Seventh-day Adventist in Australia in the 1980’s (the reverberations of this story continue). It is a serious thing to be used as a symbol in God’s plan. Moses was kept out of the earthly promised land for striking the rock, and twice, and so violating God’s rock symbol of Christ who was rent only once for our salvation. For a person to be used as a symbol does not lock them into a destiny, by the way. In Daniel 1 and 2 Nebuchadnezzar was a symbol of Babylon. “Thou art this head of gold.” He later came to his senses and in Daniel 4 changed to become a symbol of those in the book of Revelation who come out of Babylon and are saved for God’s eternal kingdom. EVERY person, by one set of actions, can be used to symbolize something on the side of right, and by another set of actions, something on the side of wrong.

God Speaks, But Those Without Faith Do Not Hear.

“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. … But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he who comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him.” Hebrews 11:1-6.

“Through nature and revelation, through His providence, and by the influence of His Spirit, God speaks to us.” Steps to Christ, p. 93.

“The prince of teachers, He [Jesus] sought access to the people by the pathway of their most familiar associations. He presented the truth in such a way that ever after it was to His hearers intertwined with the most hallowed recollections and sympathies. He taught in a way that made them feel the completeness of His identification with their interests and happiness.” Ministry of Healing, pp. 23, 24.

“Jesus desired to awaken inquiry [He STILL so desires] … Christ had truths to present which the people were unprepared to accept or even to understand. For this reason … He taught them in parables. By connecting His teaching with the scenes of life, experience, or nature, He secured their attention and impressed their hearts.” Comment on Matthew 13:13-15, Christ’s Object Lessons, pp. 20, 21.

“If any man have an ear, let him hear.” Revelation 13:6.

Did you know, America, that the wonderful book, Christ’s Object Lessons, was written in Australia?

The Lindy Chamberlain Trial of Australia. Parallels to Revelation 12. I’m sure the thought never entered the heads of either Michael or Lindy in 1980 when they drove to Ayers Rock, but the journey into Australia’s desert interior is in this country often thought upon as a journey to find spiritual meaning and truth. The Chamberlains left for Ayers Rock from their home in north-west Queensland right in the middle of the 11-15 August 1980 Glacier View meetings in USA, where world leaders of the SDA church met to consider a response to Dr Ford’s claim that Adventism’s doctrine of the investigative judgment was not biblical. Michael, as probably a majority of his colleagues in Australia at the time, regarded Dr Ford as his greatest teacher and supported his stand at Glacier View.

As mentioned, the great significance of linking the Danny and Linda “trial” with the Chamberlain drama in Australia, is that the elements of the latter story parallel the ending elements of the prophetic allegory of Revelation 12 and the ending elements of the parallel prophecies of Daniel, which are in fact alluded to in the seventh trumpet, the verses immediately preceding Revelation 12. (Rev 11:14-19; 10:7) (You can download a brief summary of these parallels by going to my website www.rockofagesparallels.org, and click “Parallels Chart.” Hopefully one day someone with expertise will help us to put up a more professional-looking website.) (The relevant ending elements of Daniel’s visions are: the triumph of God’s rock-mountain kingdom as in Daniel 2; judgment in favour of the innocent, as in Daniel 7; the two atonement time prophecies in Daniel 8 and 9, and as symbolized in the sanctuary services by the application of blood to the mercy seat of the Ark of the Covenant; the warfare by and defeat of the king of the north, as in Daniel 11:45.) The Ark of the Covenant symbol in an “opened” sanctuary in heaven introduces Revelation 12. (See my entries in the “The Ark of the Covenant” in “Enter Forums”, on msdaol)

The Chamberlain drama symbolically points to endtime Bible prophecies of “stupendous” importance to the church, the nations and the world. I submit that the still-unfolding Danny-Linda-3ABN saga is also much more than a mere piece of history.

See also the four part series of articles by Gary Krause, “The Lindy Chamberlain Story”, Review, July 2 to 23, 1987, and an editorial by William Johnsson, Review, July 30, 1987.

The Chamberlain Divorce Issue. Michael and Lindy Chamberlain divorced in 1990. The divorce was noted by the media, but though a special disappointment to the church, was not the issue which brought Michael and Lindy into the public eye. Both are remarried, to my knowledge (we have little to no contact), happily so. What is past is past, and the statement below is all that needs to be said here. Michael resigned from the ministry of the SDA Church some time after the 1982 Darwin trial. He now has a Ph.D. and is a sociologist and teacher. See his website www.michaelchamberlain.com.au. I do not share some of his theological or philosophical views, but whatever any resulting tensions, we cannot forget what he has endured, and the fellowship in Darwin during the trial and visits to the hospital and gaol. We have had almost no contact for years, but still remember him with Christian regard. We all need to pray for each other.

Statement on “Divorce” Copied From “Rumours and Facts” Section on Lindy Chamberlain-Creighton’s Website

That death of her baby and trauma of the case caused Lindy's divorce
Lindy has stated publicly that the reasons for her divorce existed before the loss of Azaria. The fight to clear their names kept Lindy and Michael together, fighting for a common cause.

Whether they were best friends or not, Lindy did not wish to be divorced, but she felt compelled to do so for the sake of her children. She believes that anyone, and anything, can be forgiven and does not wish any individual ill. She feels that nothing good can come of speaking about the details publicly, but no-one who is fully aware of the reasons for her divorce find fault with her choice, even those with the most stringent religious views. Today, we are a very close knit unit and I am proud to count Aidan, Reagan, & Kahlia as family and best friends. (From www.lindychamberlain.com in “Rumours and Facts.” I hope you don’t mind my copying this, Lindy.)

Statement by Lindy Chamberlain-Creighton on Case for Parallels Between Her Story and Revelation 12. End 2005 I asked Lindy for a statement in regard to the case for the parallels between her story and Revelation 12. You can see it at my website. (I requested a statement also from Michael, but he declined to provide one. Publicly, because of the divorce and the new marriages, the Chamberlain story now is largely seen just as Lindy’s story.)

“I know that Vada has spent much time and thought over this, but Vada’s theory is one that can neither be proved nor disproved by the Bible, in my view. As my case is a public one, members of the public are free to draw any conclusion they choose, without consulting me or seeking my permission. I believe that this should be kept in mind – together with much prayer – by anyone studying Vada’s materials.” Statement by Lindy Chamberlain-Creighton, 1 December 2005.

I appreciate Lindy’s carefully worded comment. Just remember she is a well known public identity in Australia and must choose her words with great caution. She has been caused to suffer much. Even the existence of God cannot be proved or disproved by the Bible. Christianity is based upon faith, and “without faith it is impossible to please God.” It is always for us to carefully assess the evidence, prayerfully and humbly compare fact and faith with Scripture, watch the workings of providence, listen for God’s voice speaking to our hearts, and know that an understanding of one truth cannot come until we have taken the step of obedient faith on a previously revealed truth. I on my part must shout from the roof tops that though I am fallible in the process of extrapolating upon a parallel, I know the parallels of which I speak are there, and I would certainly be dishonouring my Lord if I did not say so. I am not the only one to see this case, though I do not know anyone who has studied the parallels as extensively as I have.

“The Revelation was not written without tears; neither without tears will it be understood.” - Benson.

“New opinions are always suspected, and usually opposed, without any other reason but because they are not already common.” John Locke, Essay on Human Understanding.

[husbandoftheyear]

Whew - that was a lot of information at once!

[Voktar of Zargon]

Saharafan, thank you for sharing this testimony. The last few posts by you and Watchbird have been very inspiring for me to read. What you have presented makes any argument for a diminished importance of the Bible in the lives of Christians weak in comparison.

Appreciate your input Boss. Saharafan had some definitely good things to say. I know it may sound like heresy these days but another advantage God has given us is "pastor/teachers" to help prevent us from being tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine. Not that we place implicit confidence in what they have to say. We are enjoined to put their counsel through the Biblical sieve just like the Bereans did with Paul. I too had some similar experiences to Saharafan, but before I was a Christian and before I was an Adventist. I've experienced "The Dragon, the Beast, and the False Prophet, from the inside. "Sola Scriptura" is the answer man.

[Voktar of Zargon]

no one has suggested that the bible have diminished importance.... however I am saying that there are those who can becoming overly dependent on the bible that they miss interacting with the God that the bible points a believer too..... I am also saying that there are those who when it comes to the bible are scholars, and can run circles around the average church member, yet they don't necessarily have a relationship with God....

people's experiences may vary...

Clay, You have really brought up some excellent principles that challenge us to a more intimate relationship with God. The scribes had the old testament memorized and crucified Jesus!
On the other hand the lost of Matthew 7 experienced much supernatural phenomenon in "The name of the Lord" and didn't know Jesus either. We experience God and His will through a variety of means. One of those means is His Word.
The Protestant Reformation bogged down for hundreds of years by exalting the Word of God yet forgetting the God of the Word. On the other hand many protestant movements were led astray by "diminishing" the importance of the Word and instead placing experience over this objective standard. One case in point would be the Quakers. They placed an inordinate importance on the "inner light" to the neglect of Scripture. In one case a number of Quakers actually thought God was telling them to run naked in the streets.
I have to confess that your statement on post 84 of this thread "I understand what you are saying about the bible, but my confidence is not in the bible, my confidence is in God...." would on the surface lead one to think that a diminished Bible is implied.
I don't think it is an either or issue. But if one means of God's revelation to the human race is to be emphasized above all others (not to their neglect) it should be the Bible. Otherwise we need to give up the motto "Sola Scriptura."

[Clay]

Clay, You have really brought up some excellent principles that challenge us to a more intimate relationship with God. The scribes had the old testament memorized and crucified Jesus!
On the other hand the lost of Matthew 7 experienced much supernatural phenomenon in "The name of the Lord" and didn't know Jesus either. We experience God and His will through a variety of means. One of those means is His Word.
The Protestant Reformation bogged down for hundreds of years by exalting the Word of God yet forgetting the God of the Word. On the other hand many protestant movements were led astray by "diminishing" the importance of the Word and instead placing experience over this objective standard. One case in point would be the Quakers. They placed an inordinate importance on the "inner light" to the neglect of Scripture. In one case a number of Quakers actually thought God was telling them to run naked in the streets.
I have to confess that your statement on post 84 of this thread "I understand what you are saying about the bible, but my confidence is not in the bible, my confidence is in God...." would on the surface lead one to think that a diminished Bible is implied.
I don't think it is an either or issue. But if one means of God's revelation to the human race is to be emphasized above all others (not to their neglect) it should be the Bible. Otherwise we need to give up the motto "Sola Scriptura."

Welcome to the forum.... the motto "Sola Scriptura" has been given up long ago... for adventists it has become the bible and the writings of egw... check your 28 fundamentals.....

I do not place my confidence in the bible, neither do I think it is the main way God reveals himself to us.....

I find it unbelievable that humans can meet, interact, get to know really well, and marry a person and in some cases stay married for decades, without ever reading a book about that person.... Kids don't read books about their parents to understand and have close relationships with them (when it happens that is).... yet there are those who believe that a great and all powerful Creator is limited to a book in His revelation to humankind. That somehow he cannot reveal himself and have an intimate relationship with us other than by us studying a book about him.....

I reject that picture cause it is wrong.... btjm...

[västergötland]

Jhn 20:25The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
Jhn 20:26And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: [then] came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace [be] unto you.
Jhn 20:27Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust [it] into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
Jhn 20:28And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Jhn 20:29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed.

Like this diciple, many find it easier to believe in what they(we?) have seen.

This post has been edited by västergötland: Aug 29 2006, 09:28 AM

[howdy]

Well to add some fuel to the discussions. When Joshua said that the sun stood still, did it really? And yet he was mightily used of God and his record in the Scriptures is supposed to have been given to 'holy men who were moved of the Holy Ghost'. And yet that is how the story is written in the Bible. The story does not say that the earth stood still at all, although, scientifically/physically that is what really happened.

What about the case of the raven bringing food for Elijah when the raven is an unclean animal that God says touch not, taste not, handle not?

Can we ALWAYS presume to understand the way that God works? And when we are checking the Scriptures to see God's modus operandi, do we check the unusual happenings as well, like those that I have quoted above?

Again I want to reiterate that I understand the need for caution but let us not be too concrete in our thinking that we prevent God from working as He would like, as happened at the GC Session in 1888.

Does anyone really think that the earth stopped turning? Imagine the results of such a happening. All Joshua wanted was some more light and he got it. I dont believe the earth stopped turning.

howdy