Ellen White Quote Options

[västergötland]

Does God know in advance who will and who wont be saved? If no, could it be possible that Jesus still had hopes that His influence on the life of Judas would change him?

In any case, Judas is evidence A of what Paul writes that God came to us while we where yet sinners. That Jesus accepted and walked and ate with Judas (in case He didnt know for sure from the beginning He still did this after knowing for sure) despite the way their relationship ended ought to give hope for anyone. Gods mercy in big enough for all humans to fit in. May we become more like Him in this.

/Thomas

[Guest_Lubega_*]

Scripture is not the issue as Steve already posted that (but Green Cochoa may have missed that)....the point of contention seems to be whether or not one accepts the specifics of how Judas got there included in EGW quote posted as well as the fact that he was "called' and "chosen".

As Christ is also God, he not only knew it would be Judas but also wanted to save him...IMHO

Ok but I was not addressing the “topic” as a whole just the question the person asked

Does God know in advance who will and who wont be saved? If no, could it be possible that Jesus still had hopes that His influence on the life of Judas would change him?

In any case, Judas is evidence A of what Paul writes that God came to us while we where yet sinners. That Jesus accepted and walked and ate with Judas (in case He didnt know for sure from the beginning He still did this after knowing for sure) despite the way their relationship ended ought to give hope for anyone. Gods mercy in big enough for all humans to fit in. May we become more like Him in this.

/Thomas

[awesumtenor]

Many years ago, in California, I met the Adventist artist, Elfred Lee. I have received an email that relates an experience Elfred Lee had, around the time he was doing a mural in Washington,DC. I will post it here and now.

It relates to the topic of the

VALIDITY OF ELLEN WHITE:[/b]

[b]"Subject: Who is this Ellen White?
Shared by Edwin de Kock
Artist Elfred Lee's Testimony of Rabbi Joe Kagan's Endorsement of EllenG. White "I met Rabbi Joe Kagan at Weimar Institute in CA. His family had come from Eastern Europe where his aunt had been raped while a priest stood over her with a crucifix saying, "This is what you get for killing Christ." So you can imagine the feeling of many Jews towards Christianity. American Christians are not at all like Europeans. His family moved to the US while he was young. At age 13 he debuted at Carnegie Hall as a cantor. He had a beautiful, tenor voice. He received a very high education and became a rabbi. I met him in his later years in 1978 after he had been on Ronald Reagan's staff in Sacramento as their research man. If there were any questions about any subject, he was the one that did the research and found the answers. He had a very negative attitude towards Christianity. He would never touch the New Testament. However, he knew the Jewish Old Testament (Torah) extremely well as a highly educated rabbi would. One day he got hold of a book called Patriarchs and Prophets by Ellen G. White. He read it with astonishment and wanted to know who this Ellen White was. That is when I met him. He was asking who is this Ellen G. White and what university did she attend.

We told him she only had a 3rd grade education. "Then where did she learn Hebrew?" he asked. We told him that she never knew Hebrew, but was the most prolific female writer in history and that this was only one of her books. He was amazed at her knowledge, saying that the information in this book (Patriarchs and Prophets) is Mishnaic. The Mishnah is part of the Hebrew scholarship. He said the Mishnah had only been translated into English 30 years ago and that only high-level rabbis knew this information. This is the history of my people and it is very, very accurate. He also said that you have to know Hebrew to be able to write like this because her sentence structure is not English, it's Hebrew. The rhythm the meter, the arrangement of words and expressions are not English. He said it's as if she wrote in Hebrew and it was translated into English.

My family and I developed a strong friendship with Joe, his wife and son. As we studied the Bible and some Ellen White books together one day, he said, "I am convinced that Ellen White was inspired by the same source that inspired the Hebrew prophets. I want to become a Christian. I accept Jesus Christ as my Messiah." Now, he would not have come to Christ through reading the Bible. Even though the Hebrew Bible is full of prophecies pointing to the Messiah, it took Ellen White's writings to prove to him that Jesus Christ was the fulfillment of all the Hebrew prophecies. And only then did he pick up the New Testament and read about his Jewish Messiah.

Many times I saw him cry. I was in the middle of a painting commission for a large mural called "Christ The Way of Life" for the world headquarters of the Seventh Day Adventist church in Washington DC. He became very involved with that painting. The painting had originally been inspired by James and Ellen White who had commissioned an engraver to do a black and white drawing of the subject. He confirmed to me that Ellen White's concept was very accurate on the whole plan of salvation in both the Old and New Testament, but that the engraver had misrepresented her concepts. So he helped me in many details to make the painting historically and theologically accurate; especially regarding the sanctuary section, the Hebrew writing on the cross and the last supper scene. He told me to paint Jesus and his disciples at an oriental style table, sitting on mats on the floor - not Roman couches as the medieval artists painted. Further, he said their heads would be covered and he made sure I painted the wine, the unleavened bread and the bitter herbs and their symbolism exactly as they would have been.

He approved of the whole painting and we had an unveiling ceremony at the Auburn SDA church in late 1979. He had written a song to go with the painting and sat at the organ as we unveiled the painting. He wept as he sang the words of Jesus on the cross quoting Isaiah, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" He sang and sang and wept and wept, his whole body shaking. There was not a dry eye in the whole church. His voice was so beautiful. The original painting hangs in the new SDA world headquarters in Silver Spring, Maryland where they have posters and bible studies of the painting. I could never have done it without the inspiration of Rabbi Kagan and Ellen White. I wish they were still alive! We were at his secret baptism in the Bear River above Sacramento on Saturday night Dec 22 1979. There were four of us present. He could not even tell his wife and son that he was now a Christian. As he came up out of the cold water praising God and singing to his new Messiah, he said, "I am now a completed Jew. I have now accepted the Old and New Testament and the Messiah that all Jewish prophets told us about!"

I was recently in Europe giving some workshops on art and some of my archeological work in the Middle East. I happened to meet a Jewish family from Israel. Shalom David was originally from Iraq and his wife from Chile. They were now attending a college in Europe where I met with quite a bit of opposition to the writings of Ellen White. This Jewish family invited me to their home for Shabbat (Friday night supper.) It was a most enjoyable occasion as his wife and beautiful children sang and celebrated the arrival of Sabbath as Jews have done for thousands of years. I told them the story of Rabbi Kagan and he got very excited. He said, "The same thing happened to me! I would have rather burned the bible then touch it! I wanted nothing to do with Christianity, but I also read the writings of Ellen White and the Spirit of God was on that woman. Her writings are as if she wrote in Hebrew. You can definitely hear the Hebrew rhythm, meter and expressions in her books. I also believe she was inspired by the same source as the Hebrew prophets. And she has helped me fall in love with Jesus Christ, my Messiah."

I just met yesterday with a rabbi living here in California - Rabbi Ben. It was a follow up to a Sabbath meal I was invited to this last Sabbath with him and a group of Adventists. He went through the whole ceremony at the meal just like Rabbi Kagan and my new friend (Shalom David) in Europe had. So yesterday we were talking over Hebrew ceremonies and how they are still effective in healing disease. Rabbi Ben told me that he has also had the same experience. He hated the bible but that Ellen White brought him to Christ and helped him read the New Testament and fall in love with the Messiah. He also told me that he had gone to visit one of the most influential rabbis in America who is in his 90s who must remain unnamed. While in this rabbi's library talking, he was scanning the many, many books on his walls and there he saw the book Patriarchs and Prophets by Ellen white. Rabbi Ben asked him about it and where he had gotten it, "Why do you have this book by a Christian author?" The rabbi said, "This as a very authoritative source on our history." I recently shared this testimony on T.V. at 3 Angels Broadcasting Network. My phone has been ringing day and night by interested people from as far away as India and Australia saying, "we want to know more about Joe Kagan and Ellen White."

The book Patriarchs and Prophets can be found in any Adventist Book Center or at the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists on old Columbia Pike, Silver Spring, Maryland. Posters of "Christ The Way of Life" can be found there. See it online at <http://www.elfredleereligiousart.com/>

The Joy of the Lord is my Strength"

Nehemiah 8:10

International Prayer Ministry

PrWarrior4Him@aol.com".

F Y I

There is already a thread on this email... I'll find and post the link later...and what I said there, I will repeat here... If EGW were to see this it would make her sick... because her intent in all she said and did was not so people would ask "who is this Ellen White?" but rather that they ask "who is this Jesus?".

It is men who have put her on a pedestal and directed a spotlight on her and elevated her to semi-deity status in the years since she died... but were she alive her response to this would be that of the angel to John in Rev 19... " See thou do it not: I am thy fellow servant..."She refused such while she lived but she has been made the posthumous pope of Adventism, complete with ex cathedra infallibility... and there are some who would even deign to make her co-redemptrix, believing that believing EGW alone is enough to get one walking the golden streets of the New Jerusalem.

Another thing in this is her writings being seen as Talmudic in nature, since the Talmud is post exilic rabbinical interpretations of scripture and not scripture itself, it is at best problematic for those who view them as on a par with ( if not de facto greater than ) scripture...

In His service,
Mr. J

[PeacefulBe]

Read Luke 6:13-16 in the KJV

I read in both KJV and NIV.

NIV
Romans 6:13When morning came, he called his disciples to him and chose twelve of them, whom he also designated apostles: 14Simon (whom he named Peter), his brother Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, 15Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Simon who was called the Zealot, 16Judas son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.

KJV
Romans 6:13And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;
14Simon, (whom he also named Peter,) and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew,
15Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called Zelotes,
16And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor.
When Jesus chose his 12 disciples out of the many men and women who were His followers, He knew that they were babes in the truth and had lots of growing to do. Look at the sons of thunder who bickered for lofty positions, Peter's temper, all of their lack of faith and their misunderstanding of what Messiah was there to do.

On their journey with Him, they each had the opportunity to become enlightened to the actual plan and decide which kingdom they were going to choose to be a part of. Obviously, Judas ultimately decided to trust in his own interpretation of what Christ's mission was and decided to force the issue. He had every opportunity to become a solid and true disciple like the others.

At least this is how I interpret the verses.

[awesumtenor]

I read in both KJV and NIV.

NIV
Romans 6:13When morning came, he called his disciples to him and chose twelve of them, whom he also designated apostles: 14Simon (whom he named Peter), his brother Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, 15Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Simon who was called the Zealot, 16Judas son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.

KJV
Romans 6:13And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;
14Simon, (whom he also named Peter,) and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew,
15Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called Zelotes,
16And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor.
When Jesus chose his 12 disciples out of the many men and women who were His followers, He knew that they were babes in the truth and had lots of growing to do. Look at the sons of thunder who bickered for lofty positions, Peter's temper, all of their lack of faith and their misunderstanding of what Messiah was there to do.

On their journey with Him, they each had the opportunity to become enlightened to the actual plan and decide which kingdom they were going to choose to be a part of. Obviously, Judas ultimately decided to trust in his own interpretation of what Christ's mission was and decided to force the issue. He had every opportunity to become a solid and true disciple like the others.

At least this is how I interpret the verses.

But in that interpretation Judas was chosen just as the other 11 were, correct?

In His service,
Mr. J

[watchbird]

I guess I should say that, to me, Danny is different than an ordained pastor. To many others he is seen as the same.

And I agree. Being an ordained pastor implies that one has completed courses of study so they are conversant not only with scripture, but the many roles and duties and obligations of ministry.... AND that at one time, at least, they performed in a manner to convince the officials of the hiring conference that they were not only qualified, but in a special sense of the words, had been "called" by God to the work of Pastoral Ministry.

Danny is different in several ways. He is not trained. He did not go through any period of submitting himself to the Conference administrators and demonstrating his qualifications for ministry. And he was never recognized as being a pastor. He has, of course, never claimed to be an ordained minister. But that has not stopped him from lifting himself up to the level of one who sits in judgment on what messages should be sent around the world as representing Adventism..... including refusing to air programming from the Adventist media center and from Pastor's from some of the largest of the denomination's churches. He has refused to even consider having consultants in even an advisory capacity for examining the doctrinal content of prospective programming for 3ABN. And while he does not claim to be "ordained" to this work, he claims the Pentecostal term of "anointed of God" .... putting himself on a par with Biblical characters such as Moses, David, and John the Baptist.

The church has also treated him "differently" than it does other independent ministries. It has not taken any notice of the multiple moral problems that exist in his ministry.... including his own activities. It has allowed him to be called "the face of Adventism"..... even in the face of revelations about his activities that make true Adventists cringe when they hear the appelation. They have "winked" at reports of the diversion of tithes.... in spite of all they have said against anyone giving their tithes in any way other than through the official tithe envelope channels.

Why?

"How long O Lord, How long?"

[Uncle Sam]

And I agree. Being an ordained pastor implies that one has completed courses of study so they are conversant not only with scripture, but the many roles and duties and obligations of ministry.... AND that at one time, at least, they performed in a manner to convince the officials of the hiring conference that they were not only qualified, but in a special sense of the words, had been "called" by God to the work of Pastoral Ministry.

Danny is different in several ways. He is not trained. He did not go through any period of submitting himself to the Conference administrators and demonstrating his qualifications for ministry. And he was never recognized as being a pastor. He has, of course, never claimed to be an ordained minister. But that has not stopped him from lifting himself up to the level of one who sits in judgment on what messages should be sent around the world as representing Adventism..... including refusing to air programming from the Adventist media center and from Pastor's from some of the largest of the denomination's churches. He has refused to even consider having consultants in even an advisory capacity for examining the doctrinal content of prospective programming for 3ABN. And while he does not claim to be "ordained" to this work, he claims the Pentecostal term of "anointed of God" .... putting himself on a par with Biblical characters such as Moses, David, and John the Baptist.

The church has also treated him "differently" than it does other independent ministries. It has not taken any notice of the multiple moral problems that exist in his ministry.... including his own activities. It has allowed him to be called "the face of Adventism"..... even in the face of revelations about his activities that make true Adventists cringe when they hear the appelation. They have "winked" at reports of the diversion of tithes.... in spite of all they have said against anyone giving their tithes in any way other than through the official tithe envelope channels.

Why?

"How long O Lord, How long?"

I still just don't get it. If Danny has done all that he has been accused of, why don't the wronged take legal action. If they are why all the secrecy? If there is such hard evidence what are they worried about? If the evidence is there why won't the "leaders" believe it? I see some of them being blinded but not all of them. I understand Dr. B spoke out but I hate to say it he doesn't have much credibility with most SDA's I know....

[GrammieTana]

Context is such an important factor in "rightly dividing the word of truth"...... and even more so in applying the "word of truth" to circumstances which are far different than the original situation calling for the "testimony".

When Ellen White wrote testimonies to individuals, she wrote to correct that particular individual. And since some strayed from the path on the one side and some on the other, she wrote quite opposite things to those on each side of the path. And even in her lifetime it was quite common for those who needed the counsel on the one side to pick up the counsel to those straying in the opposite direction ..... and vice versa.

Ellen at times "hid" the sins of her brethren..... and at times exposed them. And she has counsel which is generalized to the church for when it is appropriate for us to choose between the same courses of action. In general, the "rules" are the same as those laid down in scripture .... sin must be exposed to the same extent to which it has affected other people (or that it has the potential for harming other people).

It is, IMO, cruelty of the rankest order for someone to add to the stress of the burdens that those of us carry....... who, either because we were directly victimized by the Shelton gang or have seen enough so that we simply can no longer stand aside without doing whatever it takes to get the evils we have seen (and any others that we haven't yet seen) expunged from the "camp"...... by applying such out of context quotes to us. If one is going to quote Ellen White, then please choose from her statements which reproves sin and which lays upon those who are aware of it the responsibility of reproving, exposing, and removing it from among us.

And if you really want to get personal .... using a "rake" instead of a "pitchfork" when handling her bundles of statements ..... then how about pulling them to yourselves instead of accusing us who are attempting to warn innocent victims (or victims to be). For example ... what about "criticism and condemnation of the brethren"..... and sisters..... who are standing on the Lord's side against continued evil?...... Will it not also be "counted as criticism and condemnation of Christ."

Dear Watchbird:

I totally agree with you on this. People need to understand that those ' Selected Messages' of Sister White are, in truth, books with collected quotes designed to highlight an agenda of the collector/s. These persons have an agenda which may or may not agree with the context of each of the quotations selected for publication in a particular book and it would do those who use them a great deal of good to go to the original passage to see what her original meaning really was. "Adventist Home", "Child Guidance", and several other of these types of books are of this 'ilk' and I do not trust them. Since there are many areas of EGW's writings which I find irritating at the least you might sense a bit of acrimony against the 'dear' lady.

I'm sorry if this offends many of you, (and I expect it to!), so please do not write me to complain about this post. But I do also recognize that I have much learning to do, too

Quite frankly, I also believe that while God did give her information that we all need about our relationship with God, there was much that the world was not yet able to accept regarding the power in His Word. This is POWER that is available to us today when our understanding is opened with the discerning gifts of the Holy Spirit.

So now, when using EGW to criticize those who are in right standing with God which is noted by their commitment to 3ABN (not to the Shelton Gang) please realize that, as has been stated in this thread before, I believe, and has also been Linda's goal, it is the preservation of the ministry which is at stake here.

Please be careful and kind. EGW can be a cruel tool in the hands of the wong people when applied to people who do not deserve it but are often not quite confident enough in themselves, perhaps, or in their understanding of God's true will for them: indeed, all of us, when it comes to knowing when to stand up for truth have been so conditioned by Satan to think that to want anything for ourselves is selfishness that it oftens clouds our sense of propriety. Be sure that you are not one of those 'beating down the faithful' with her words used in an unkind way.

JustTana

This post has been edited by JustTana: Sep 24 2006, 12:41 PM

[awesumtenor]

Dear Watchbird:

I totally agree with you on this. People need to understand that those ' Selected Messages' of Sister White are, in truth, books with collected quotes designed to highlight an agenda of the collector/s. These persons have an agenda which may or may not agree with the context of each of the quotations selected for publication in a particular book and it would do those who use them a great deal of good to go to the original passage so see what her original meaning really was. "Adventist Home", "Child Guidance", and several other of these types of books are of this 'ilk' and I do not trust them. Since there are many areas of EGW's writings which I find irritating at the least you might sense a bit of acrimony against the 'dear' lady.

Your acrimony is not against her... on this topic, at least... it is with those who are making the compilations and the agendae they put forth while trying to hide in the shadow of EGW in an attempt to give said agendae legitimacy.

As Watchbird mentioned before, those same passages in context are often talking about something that has nothing to do with how the passage is being applied. Those making the application try to say if you disagree with their application you are disagreeing with EGW ( and thus by extension and implication the Lord God Almighty Himself ) but the fact is neither God nor EGW is the one making the application and it is the application of the writing with which you differ not what the writing says in it's context.

Some folks insist on being obtuse and acting like the distinction is merely semantic... but it is not.

In His service,
Mr. J

[GrammieTana]

Your acrimony is not against her... on this topic, at least... it is with those who are making the compilations and the agendae they put forth while trying to hide in the shadow of EGW in an attempt to give said agendae legitimacy.

As Watchbird mentioned before, those same passages in context are often talking about something that has nothing to do with how the passage is being applied. Those making the application try to say if you disagree with their application you are disagreeing with EGW ( and thus by extension and implication the Lord God Almighty Himself ) but the fact is neither God nor EGW is the one making the application and it is the application of the writing with which you differ not what the writing says in it's context.

Some folks insist on being obtuse and acting like the distinction is merely semantic... but it is not.

In His service,
Mr. J

Dear Awesometenor:

Thank you for those kind words.

JT

[PeacefulBe]

But in that interpretation Judas was chosen just as the other 11 were, correct?

In His service,
Mr. J

Correct.

[justme]

There is already a thread on this email... I'll find and post the link later...and what I said there, I will repeat here... If EGW were to see this it would make her sick... because her intent in all she said and did was not so people would ask "who is this Ellen White?" but rather that they ask "who is this Jesus?".

It is men who have put her on a pedestal and directed a spotlight on her and elevated her to semi-deity status in the years since she died... but were she alive her response to this would be that of the angel to John in Rev 19... " See thou do it not: I am thy fellow servant..."She refused such while she lived but she has been made the posthumous pope of Adventism, complete with ex cathedra infallibility... and there are some who would even deign to make her co-redemptrix, believing that believing EGW alone is enough to get one walking the golden streets of the New Jerusalem.

Another thing in this is her writings being seen as Talmudic in nature, since the Talmud is post exilic rabbinical interpretations of scripture and not scripture itself, it is at best problematic for those who view them as on a par with ( if not de facto greater than ) scripture...

In His service,
Mr. J

"awsometenor", let me apologize for duplicating this email. I try so hard to keep up, but I failed again. I will say that I agree with you that EGW should nOT be placed on a par with the Bible, and she told us so herself.

If she had seen this she would be pleased to know that, after so many years and years of rejecting Jesus and the entire New Testament, a Rabbi had heard the voice of the God of Israel THROUGH her pen. Because God spoke through her pen in a "form" that the Rabbi could relate to, he was able to see the God he was looking for.

This post has so little to do with EGW and so much to do with the way God was able to reach the Rabbi. God Himself is very much evident in this post. The God of Abraham and Isaac knew that someday such a Rabbi would need to see God this way that God prepared a message for him way in advance. God just happened to use EGW.

My mention of the "Vindication" of EGW is to show how far ahead of the need God had used her in a very unique way to reach just such an Rabbi.

It was truly amazing for that man who was a MASON of the MASONIC ORDER to see EGW give with her own hand the very secret sign known only to higher order MASONS. BUT such a story does not place her upon any kind of pedestal. Only certain individuals how have tendency toward being "Groupies" make heroes out of ordinary people.

Ellen would be happy to know that a Rabbi was able to see JESUS as Savior and Lord through something she wrote. It will serve us all well to remember that she never did "enjoy: writing the things she was given. It was very hard work, long and laborious.

Selected Messages are just that, selected messages. Selected not by EGW but by ... , well, people who believe that the gospel can be "Condensed and Encapsulated" for a quick meal. They are from her pen, but out of context, good messages if used properly.

You are correct in pointing out that she would turn over in her grave if she thought she were "elevated" in some way. She actually wondered st times if her pen would ever be read and understood and taken to heart. She was actually shown things like this story of the Rabbi who actually would come to see Jesus through her pen.

Oh, would that we each could see some "uplifting of Jesus through our own pens". So that maybe one heart would be touched and opened to Him. Sometimes it takes words placed in a certain "tone" or "meter" that means something.

It still amazes me how ineffective we are with the words we choose so carefully, but how effectively God can interpret them beyond our wildest comprehension. I don't know if EGW words, or style, or meter, were the key to the Rabbis' understanding or whether it was placed into his heart by the Holy Spirit to see what God had been trying to show him for years.

The great miracle of communication is a gift from God.

Thanks again for your point, and for posting it again from your previous post.

JMHO (which isn't worth much.)
it's "justme"

(Maybe I should just back out and read, and stop trying to post. I hate to upset you so. I am new to this. I have really bad eyes. It's hard to see things as clearly as I would like. It's obviously causing problems for the forum. I will just stick to reading yours. Thanks for your help.)

I see a place to "Register".
How does one "Un-Register"?

[watchbird]

Dear Watchbird:

I totally agree with you on this. People need to understand that those ' Selected Messages' of Sister White are, in truth, books with collected quotes designed to highlight an agenda of the collector/s. These persons have an agenda which may or may not agree with the context of each of the quotations selected for publication in a particular book and it would do those who use them a great deal of good to go to the original passage to see what her original meaning really was. "Adventist Home", "Child Guidance", and several other of these types of books are of this 'ilk' and I do not trust them. Since there are many areas of EGW's writings which I find irritating at the least you might sense a bit of acrimony against the 'dear' lady.

I'm sorry if this offends many of you, (and I expect it to!), so please do not write me to complain about this post. But I do also recognize that I have much learning to do, too

What you say above about EGW compilations is all too true, and goes directly against her express instructions as to how to use her writings. It is, however, unfortunate that you used "Selected Messages" as a label of these books, since the three books with this specific title was, in fact, a series that broke sharply with the tradition of collecting sentences and paragraphs, and instead not only selected whole "messages", but also at times gave a bit of context for them.

I fully agree, however, that the specific titles you gave (and a few others as well), certainly do deserve the "bit of acrimony" that you exhibit..... howbeit as awesumtenor noted, it should be directed at the compilers rather than at the author of the original statements. Fortunately, we are no longer limited to the compilations and indexes created by human preferences and prejudices, but we have everything available and searchable on-line. And eventually, we will have all the unpublished documents available in the same way..... plus it is my understanding that there will be contextual information about every person and situation which is addressed. So while there will doubtless still be those that misuse her writings, there will be less and less excuse to fall for the "lines" they throw out.

Quite frankly, I also believe that while God did give her information that we all need about our relationship with God, there was much that the world was not yet able to accept regarding the power in His Word. This is POWER that is available to us today when our understanding is opened with the discerning gifts of the Holy Spirit.

I'm not exactly sure why you have capitalized "power". There is information and knowledge and research methods that are available to us today that were not available in past centuries. And there the guidance of the Holy Spirit is still available to us today as it has been ever since Pentecost, so yes, I think we should be ever expanding our understanding of scripture as well as our doctrines, rather than tying so tightly to the past understandings that we are like a ship that has not cast off the tie-down lines from the dock.

So now, when using EGW to criticize those who are in right standing with God which is noted by their commitment to 3ABN (not to the Shelton Gang) please realize that, as has been stated in this thread before, I believe, and has also been Linda's goal, it is the preservation of the ministry which is at stake here.

The question remains to be seen whether Danny and "the Shelton Gang" can be separated from 3ABN so that that entity can pass into new ownership and go on being a ministry of the Adventist church..... or whether Danny and 3abn are so entwined that the separation has to come between the Adventist church and 3abn. Whichever it is, there is a sense in which the true "ministry" will go on...... whether that ministry is to be found carrying a 3ABN logo or a HOPE or some other logo, but one which will openly identify itself as a supporting ministry of the Seventh-day Adventist church and will enter into full and reciprocal contractual agreements with the church such that it can with some validity be called "the face of Adventism" to the world.

Please be careful and kind. EGW can be a cruel tool in the hands of the wong people when applied to people who do not deserve it but are often not quite confident enough in themselves, perhaps, or in their understanding of God's true will for them: indeed, all of us, when it comes to knowing when to stand up for truth have been so conditioned by Satan to think that to want anything for ourselves is selfishness that it oftens clouds our sense of propriety. Be sure that you are not one of those 'beating down the faithful' with her words used in an unkind way.

JustTana

Well stated.

[Seraphim7]

I still just don't get it. If Danny has done all that he has been accused of, why don't the wronged take legal action. If they are why all the secrecy? If there is such hard evidence what are they worried about? If the evidence is there why won't the "leaders" believe it? I see some of them being blinded but not all of them. I understand Dr. B spoke out but I hate to say it he doesn't have much credibility with most SDA's I know....

Um, what does Dr. B's credibility have to do with what watchbird stated?

[awesumtenor]

(Maybe I should just back out and read, and stop trying to post. I hate to upset you so. I am new to this. I have really bad eyes. It's hard to see things as clearly as I would like. It's obviously causing problems for the forum. I will just stick to reading yours. Thanks for your help.)

I see a place to "Register".
How does one "Un-Register"?

Dont unregister... and FWIW, I am not upset... I am opinionated to a fault on occasion and sometimes wrong but never in doubt... but I am not upset and while those not familiar with me may not catch it, I derive great pleasure in discussing things with people whose perspective and mine may not jibe. Your opinions are causing me no angst... and as Patrick Henry once said, I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say them. BSDA does not seek to be monolithic and it's strength is it's diversity... not just in the backgrounds of the members but also in the perspectives and opinions those members hold.

Hope this helps.

In His service,
Mr. J