 Ellen White Quote |
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 Sep 24 2006, 04:42 AM
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#46
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 500 + posts  Group: Members Posts: 725 Joined: 29-August 06 Member No.: 2,189 Gender: m  |
QUOTE(Clay @ Sep 24 2006, 01:49 AM) [snapback]153264[/snapback] The bible says that Jesus called Judas... so he was a disciple..... Yes, that is true. Yet the Bible also says "By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ." (Romans 1:5-6) Has not God called everyone? Many are called, but few are chosen. Jesus did not choose Judas, but accepted him when Judas came seeking. QUOTE "While Jesus was preparing the disciples for their ordination, one who had not been summoned urged his presence among them. It was Judas Iscariot, a man who professed to be a follower of Christ. . . . Judas believed Jesus to be the Messiah; and by joining the apostles, he hoped to secure a high position in the new kingdom. . . . " (Conflict and Courage, 285) -------------------- To copyright man's creation is to plagiarize God's gifts.
"Our salvation depends on a knowledge of the truth contained in the Scriptures." (COL 111.3) |
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Sep 24 2006, 05:05 AM
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#47
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 5,000 + posts  Group: Administrator Posts: 19,829 Joined: 20-July 03 From: Alabama Member No.: 4 Gender: m |
QUOTE(Green Cochoa @ Sep 24 2006, 04:42 AM) [snapback]153267[/snapback] Yes, that is true. Yet the Bible also says "By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ." (Romans 1:5-6) Has not God called everyone? Many are called, but few are chosen. Jesus did not choose Judas, but accepted him when Judas came seeking. the bible says Jesus chose Judas.... you bring me a quote from egw that says different.... whom do I believe..... NOT egw..... either the bible is correct or not.... but egw does NOT trump the bible.... at the risk of generalizing.... the response is typical adventist christian... for some reason people feel uncomfortable with the fact that Jesus chose Judas... not sure why.... so they find a way to say he was different, that his chosing was different... Jesus chose him.... so let the gymnastics begin.... This post has been edited by Clay: Sep 24 2006, 05:08 AM -------------------- "you are as sick as your secrets...." -quote from Celebrity Rehab-
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Sep 24 2006, 06:35 AM
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#48
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500 + posts Group: Members Posts: 725 Joined: 29-August 06 Member No.: 2,189 Gender: m |
QUOTE(Clay @ Sep 24 2006, 05:05 AM) [snapback]153271[/snapback] the bible says Jesus chose Judas.... you bring me a quote from egw that says different.... whom do I believe..... NOT egw..... either the bible is correct or not.... but egw does NOT trump the bible.... at the risk of generalizing.... the response is typical adventist christian... for some reason people feel uncomfortable with the fact that Jesus chose Judas... not sure why.... so they find a way to say he was different, that his chosing was different... Jesus chose him.... so let the gymnastics begin.... Well, if you want some gymnastics, tell me without contradicting yourself who hardened Pharoah's heart! Sometimes the Bible is open to interpretation, and sometimes the wording used is not necessarily as simple to understand as taking it at face value. I accept your point. And yet, I understand the same passages differently. I don't see any conflict between EGW and the Bible on this point. She is telling us what happened, historically, which Mark only remotely implies in the following passage: (Mark 3:13-19) QUOTE And he goeth up into a mountain, and calleth unto him whom he would: and they came unto him. And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach, And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils: And Simon he surnamed Peter; And James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he surnamed them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder: And Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Canaanite, And Judas Iscariot, which also betrayed him: and they went into an house. Ellen White is talking about this same ordination service. It is evident that Judas tagged along with those whom Jesus had called, and was accepted into their company and ordained along with them. Jesus did not refuse Judas, even though Judas had come "uninvited". Perhaps you would agree that there can be a difference between those called and those actually ordained here. Again, in Luke, we have almost the same story: (Luke 6:13-16) QUOTE And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles; Simon, (whom he also named Peter,) and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew, Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called Zelotes, And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor. Here the distinction is even more clear between those called and those chosen. It is as if there were many disciples (followers) from which to choose, and He accepted just twelve of them. We are told, of course, of Jesus' specific invitation to some of those disciples, calling them by name, and saying "Follow me." Where did Jesus call Judas in like manner? -------------------- To copyright man's creation is to plagiarize God's gifts.
"Our salvation depends on a knowledge of the truth contained in the Scriptures." (COL 111.3) |
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Sep 24 2006, 06:37 AM
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#49
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 1,000 + posts  Group: Members Posts: 2,002 Joined: 18-July 06 From: Sweden Member No.: 1,902 Gender: m |
QUOTE(beartrap @ Sep 24 2006, 01:30 AM) [snapback]153181[/snapback] "Nothing emboldens sin so much as mercy." Timons of Athens, William Shakespear On secound thought, it would seem our only hope lies in God not reasonging like that... -------------------- Christ crucified for our sins, Christ risen from the dead, Christ ascended on high, is the science of salvation that we are to learn and to teach. {8T 287.2}
Most Noble and Honourable Thomas the Abstemious of Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch "I have said it before and I repeat it now: If someone could prove to me that apartheid is compatible with the Bible or christian faith, I would burn my bible and stop being a christian" Desmond Tutu |
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Sep 24 2006, 07:07 AM
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#50
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 1,000 + posts Group: Members Posts: 2,015 Joined: 2-May 06 Member No.: 1,712 Gender: f |
QUOTE(beartrap @ Sep 23 2006, 06:30 PM) [snapback]153181[/snapback] "Nothing emboldens sin so much as mercy." Timons of Athens, William Shakespear QUOTE(västergötland @ Sep 24 2006, 06:37 AM) [snapback]153281[/snapback] Someone should have remembered to tell God. On secound thought, it would seem our only hope lies in God not reasonging like that... Think once more and you will realize that it was God who told us that in the first place. (Sorry I don't have a text on the tip of my fingers, but perhaps others will supply those for us.) Shakespeare only commented on what was obvious to the observer. But God is a God of Love.... which includes mercy, and he is willing to let it "embolden sin", knowing that it will also cause some sinners to change their ways and abandon their sin and turn and follow Him. |
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Sep 24 2006, 07:35 AM
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#51
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1,000 + posts Group: Members Posts: 2,015 Joined: 2-May 06 Member No.: 1,712 Gender: f |
QUOTE(Clay @ Sep 24 2006, 05:05 AM) [snapback]153271[/snapback] the bible says Jesus chose Judas.... you bring me a quote from egw that says different.... whom do I believe..... NOT egw..... either the bible is correct or not.... but egw does NOT trump the bible.... at the risk of generalizing.... the response is typical adventist christian... for some reason people feel uncomfortable with the fact that Jesus chose Judas... not sure why.... so they find a way to say he was different, that his chosing was different... Jesus chose him.... so let the gymnastics begin.... No gymnastics..... just a comment. IMO "people feel uncomfortable with the fact that Jesus chose Judas" as one of the twelve because they can't handle having at least two of their presupositions challenged..... 1) that had Jesus known of Judas's betrayal he would not have chosen him, and 2) (which is probably most basic and important), they can't accept the idea that God may not have perfect detailed knowledge of the future, but that He is honest in the opportunities he gives to human beings to make real decisions and to develop their character in one direction or another... not merely so that other humans can see the results, but also so that He, Himself, can see what they will do. |
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Sep 24 2006, 08:04 AM
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#52
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5,000 + posts Group: Administrator Posts: 19,829 Joined: 20-July 03 From: Alabama Member No.: 4 Gender: m |
QUOTE(Green Cochoa @ Sep 24 2006, 06:35 AM) [snapback]153280[/snapback] Well, if you want some gymnastics, tell me without contradicting yourself who hardened Pharoah's heart! Sometimes the Bible is open to interpretation, and sometimes the wording used is not necessarily as simple to understand as taking it at face value. I accept your point. And yet, I understand the same passages differently. I don't see any conflict between EGW and the Bible on this point. She is telling us what happened, historically, which Mark only remotely implies in the following passage: (Mark 3:13-19) Ellen White is talking about this same ordination service. It is evident that Judas tagged along with those whom Jesus had called, and was accepted into their company and ordained along with them. Jesus did not refuse Judas, even though Judas had come "uninvited". Perhaps you would agree that there can be a difference between those called and those actually ordained here. Again, in Luke, we have almost the same story: (Luke 6:13-16) Here the distinction is even more clear between those called and those chosen. It is as if there were many disciples (followers) from which to choose, and He accepted just twelve of them. We are told, of course, of Jesus' specific invitation to some of those disciples, calling them by name, and saying "Follow me." Where did Jesus call Judas in like manner? gymnastics.... the bible says Jesus chose... I am going with that one.... just because there is no detailed description of Jesus calling Judas as he did Peter, does not mean it didn't happen..... -------------------- "you are as sick as your secrets...." -quote from Celebrity Rehab-
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Sep 24 2006, 08:11 AM
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#53
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500 + posts Group: Members Posts: 725 Joined: 29-August 06 Member No.: 2,189 Gender: m |
QUOTE(watchbird @ Sep 24 2006, 07:35 AM) [snapback]153284[/snapback] No gymnastics..... just a comment. IMO "people feel uncomfortable with the fact that Jesus chose Judas" as one of the twelve because they can't handle having at least two of their presupositions challenged..... 1) that had Jesus known of Judas's betrayal he would not have chosen him, and 2) (which is probably most basic and important), they can't accept the idea that God may not have perfect detailed knowledge of the future, but that He is honest in the opportunities he gives to human beings to make real decisions and to develop their character in one direction or another... not merely so that other humans can see the results, but also so that He, Himself, can see what they will do. I am not at all "uncomfortable" with the idea that Jesus might have chosen Judas. As it stands, I don't believe that Jesus chose him in the same manner with which He selected the others, but I would have no problem, if such were truly the case, with the other scenario. Jesus did know the future, which is why He later commented on having chosen the twelve and one was a devil. (John 6:70) So I have no problem with either 1) or 2) stated above. However, here's some other possibles that some might be uncomfortable with if, in fact, we determine that Jesus called Judas instead of Judas volunteering himself: 1) Were there only eleven who were truly qualified and Jesus had to pick an inferior character just to reach the magic number 12? 2) Was there someone else more qualified, of a better metal, who Jesus rejected, just to secure Judas? 3) Did Jesus pick Judas only to fulfill messianic prophecies, knowing full well what Judas would do? Personally, I think Ellen White wrote the truth. Judas had a great deal of pride. As such, he certainly would have deemed himself an asset to Jesus and his uncultured band of men. Why wouldn't he have volunteered, if this was the Messiah? Everyone in his day believed the Messiah would be a king to set them free from the Romans. Judas wanted some of that honor. And his "class" made the disciples think he would be a good companion as well...they could not see his heart the way Jesus certainly did. The more important question for us is, are we volunteering to do things for God without His invitation? Perhaps God can work through it, in spite of ourselves, but it is never safe to go without His permission. Ask Balaam. -------------------- To copyright man's creation is to plagiarize God's gifts.
"Our salvation depends on a knowledge of the truth contained in the Scriptures." (COL 111.3) |
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Sep 24 2006, 08:14 AM
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#54
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5,000 + posts Group: Administrator Posts: 19,829 Joined: 20-July 03 From: Alabama Member No.: 4 Gender: m |
the important question is when there is a contradiction between the bible and egw who will you believe?
-------------------- "you are as sick as your secrets...." -quote from Celebrity Rehab-
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Sep 24 2006, 08:26 AM
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#55
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1,000 + posts Group: Members Posts: 2,002 Joined: 18-July 06 From: Sweden Member No.: 1,902 Gender: m |
QUOTE(watchbird @ Sep 24 2006, 02:07 PM) [snapback]153283[/snapback] Think once more and you will realize that it was God who told us that in the first place. (Sorry I don't have a text on the tip of my fingers, but perhaps others will supply those for us.) Shakespeare only commented on what was obvious to the observer. But God is a God of Love.... which includes mercy, and he is willing to let it "embolden sin", knowing that it will also cause some sinners to change their ways and abandon their sin and turn and follow Him. As for texts to quote on the area of forgiveness, let me offer this one. Luk 11:4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil. -------------------- Christ crucified for our sins, Christ risen from the dead, Christ ascended on high, is the science of salvation that we are to learn and to teach. {8T 287.2}
Most Noble and Honourable Thomas the Abstemious of Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch "I have said it before and I repeat it now: If someone could prove to me that apartheid is compatible with the Bible or christian faith, I would burn my bible and stop being a christian" Desmond Tutu |
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Sep 24 2006, 08:47 AM
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#56
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500 + posts Group: Members Posts: 725 Joined: 29-August 06 Member No.: 2,189 Gender: m |
QUOTE(Clay @ Sep 24 2006, 08:14 AM) [snapback]153290[/snapback] the important question is when there is a contradiction between the bible and egw who will you believe? In this case, of course, I don't see a contradiction. However, I do not believe there is never an apparent contradiction (there may be outright contradictions, but I feel they would be difficult to prove so). I have already posted previously some examples of Biblical contradictions. Who will you believe when the Bible contradicts itself? Such as that gymnastic exercise I referred to earlier, where it is said of Pharoah that God hardened his heart or that Pharoah hardened his heart. In this case, I believe it is a matter of misinterpreting the wording. I can easily imagine a similar sentence constructed like this: The heat angered the passenger. Who/what made the passenger angry? Obviously the passenger chose to be angry. Pharoah, likewise, chose to harden his heart in God's presence (i.e. God hardened Pharoah's heart). So, back to Judas, did Jesus call him? or did he call himself? It's open to interpretation. BTW, where does the Bible say Jesus chose Judas? I can't find any form of the words "call" or "chose" associated with Judas in that sense. -------------------- To copyright man's creation is to plagiarize God's gifts.
"Our salvation depends on a knowledge of the truth contained in the Scriptures." (COL 111.3) |
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Sep 24 2006, 08:57 AM
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#57
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 5,000 + posts Group: Members Posts: 10,513 Joined: 17-January 05 From: Nashville, Tennessee Member No.: 830 Gender: f |
 I like your spiritual logic....QUOTE(Green Cochoa @ Sep 24 2006, 09:47 AM) [snapback]153303[/snapback] In this case, of course, I don't see a contradiction. However, I do not believe there is never an apparent contradiction (there may be outright contradictions, but I feel they would be difficult to prove so). I have already posted previously some examples of Biblical contradictions. Who will you believe when the Bible contradicts itself? Such as that gymnastic exercise I referred to earlier, where it is said of Pharoah that God hardened his heart or that Pharoah hardened his heart. In this case, I believe it is a matter of misinterpreting the wording. I can easily imagine a similar sentence constructed like this: The heat angered the passenger. Who/what made the passenger angry? Obviously the passenger chose to be angry. Pharoah, likewise, chose to harden his heart in God's presence (i.e. God hardened Pharoah's heart). So, back to Judas, did Jesus call him? or did he call himself? It's open to interpretation. BTW, where does the Bible say Jesus chose Judas? I can't find any form of the words "call" or "chose" associated with Judas in that sense. and I have to agree....there is not an inconsistency.... -------------------- "No weapon formed against YOU (Sarah--and every Believer/Servant of God) shall prosper and every tongue that rises against you in judgement you will condemn...."--Isaiah 54:17
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| Guest_Lubega_* |
Sep 24 2006, 09:20 AM
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#58
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Guests |
QUOTE(Green Cochoa @ Sep 24 2006, 10:47 AM) [snapback]153303[/snapback] In this case, of course, I don't see a contradiction. However, I do not believe there is never an apparent contradiction (there may be outright contradictions, but I feel they would be difficult to prove so). I have already posted previously some examples of Biblical contradictions. Who will you believe when the Bible contradicts itself? Such as that gymnastic exercise I referred to earlier, where it is said of Pharoah that God hardened his heart or that Pharoah hardened his heart. In this case, I believe it is a matter of misinterpreting the wording. I can easily imagine a similar sentence constructed like this: The heat angered the passenger. Who/what made the passenger angry? Obviously the passenger chose to be angry. Pharoah, likewise, chose to harden his heart in God's presence (i.e. God hardened Pharoah's heart). So, back to Judas, did Jesus call him? or did he call himself? It's open to interpretation. BTW, where does the Bible say Jesus chose Judas? I can't find any form of the words "call" or "chose" associated with Judas in that sense. Read Luke 6:13-16 in the KJV |
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Sep 24 2006, 09:31 AM
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#59
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 1,000 + posts Group: Members Posts: 2,251 Joined: 25-August 06 Member No.: 2,169 Gender: f |
QUOTE(PrincessDrRe @ Sep 23 2006, 05:40 PM) [snapback]153190[/snapback] Ok...not an "ordained" Pastor - but one who stands in a "likeness" of a Pastor/leader.... As long as this is the same "answer" that is done for all..... Young ladies (like me) and others.... Wait? You mean this isn't the way it's done for all..... Then Danny should suffer the same fate as others (me) had to.... JMO You've got a good point there, Re. Guess perhaps it is a regional thing for me. In my church they baptize a person even if they haven't given up smoking yet. They won't let the person hold a church position until they have moved far enough along in their spiritual journey, but they are welcomed into the membership of fellow sinners seeking the kingdom. West Coast SDA churches seem to be more liberal in that regard (and I praise the Lord for it). I guess I should say that, to me, Danny is different than an ordained pastor. To many others he is seen as the same. I certainly can identify with you being harshly judged by the organization. Although I wasn't disfellowshipped when I was a young lady for sins they thought I had committed, I certainly was shunned! This was decades ago and on a completely different continent. I hope you have been welcomed back into the fold by now! Some day the churches who got their high and mighty panties all bunched up and forgot that they were sinners, too, will certainly have some reckoning to deal with IMO!!!  QUOTE(Green Cochoa @ Sep 23 2006, 05:49 PM) [snapback]153191[/snapback] That is only true on paper. In the sight of God he is most certainly a pastor. A pastor means "shepherd". In fact, in Spanish, it is the same word for pastor and shepherd--both "pastor". Pastor has the same root as our English word pasture, and can be thought of as one who "feeds the flock". Danny, in his position of trust, is feeding many every day with his words, whether they be truth-filled or empty. One day, he, as all of us, will have to answer God's question "where is the flock that was given thee, thy beautiful flock?" (Jer. 13:20) "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood." (Acts 20:28) Point taken. -------------------- Got Peace?
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid. "Truth welcomes examination and doesn't need to defend itself, while deception hides in darkness and blames everyone else." Aunt B, 2007 |
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Sep 24 2006, 09:37 AM
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#60
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5,000 + posts Group: Members Posts: 10,513 Joined: 17-January 05 From: Nashville, Tennessee Member No.: 830 Gender: f |
Scripture is not the issue as Steve already posted that (but Green Cochoa may have missed that)....the point of contention seems to be whether or not one accepts the specifics of how Judas got there included in EGW quote posted as well as the fact that he was "called' and "chosen".
As Christ is also God, he not only knew it would be Judas but also wanted to save him...IMHO QUOTE(Lubega @ Sep 24 2006, 10:20 AM) [snapback]153311[/snapback] Read Luke 6:13-16 in the KJV -------------------- "No weapon formed against YOU (Sarah--and every Believer/Servant of God) shall prosper and every tongue that rises against you in judgement you will condemn...."--Isaiah 54:17
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