Damage Control, Emails Options

[watchbird]

watchbird' date='Dec 7 2006, 12:22 PM' wrote:

"The "two or three" number of first hand witnesses has been passed a long time ago. Not many have agreed to let their names be made public however."

WOW! this is like pulling teeth. (How is it for you?)

Did these anonymous first hand witnesses say anything, anywhere?

Did they provide any evidence or anything tangible? Anything that I, or any other, can see or verify? Or is that all secret too?

Since you say you have read all of the pinned stuff... (including following all of the links in the "guided tour"? ) then you know that we often refer to what can be posted as merely the "tip of the iceberg". Many before you have prodded and poked to try and get the rest up to the surface... but it is the nature of icebergs, that even if you chip away all that is above water level when you start, there is still the bulk of the berg left below.

There are reasons why this must be so... and they have been given over and over again, so I'm sure you'll run across them as you keep going. But briefly they fall under some distinctive categories.... some of which are legal, some sensitiveness to the personal lives of others, particularly those who have been in a victim category, and some because of the danger some would be put in if they spoke publicly.... or even privately.

It is hard for those of us with an inquisitive mind to stay patient while information comes out very slowly and incompletely. But if you stick with it here, you will find a LOT of pieces of the picture... and they will make more sense when you fit them together than they do separately and as you fit them together you will also get a feel for how to draw the lines between the dots... and also whose reports to give the most credence.

And along the way you will develop your own sensitivity as to what kinds of things can be (or should be) mentioned on the forums... and which should rightfully be held "off camera" as it were.

[Chez]

This I understand., having read all. I am trying to figure out, if anyone but Glen Dryden has said this, as far as the recent allegations go, and how do we know it's the truth? He wasn't even around when any of this happened, if it wasn't for him, and Bob talking to him. What else do we have to go on?
A victim? I do know that after Pastor Dryden persisted a Lawyer from 3ABN contacted him regarding slander.

It seems to me if this Pastor can prove what he claims, that lawyer, and 3ABN have egg on their face.

~ Aletheia

Welcome Aletheia. You've asked several questions about proof. How much proof do you want? There are people who have said that they have been victimized by Tommy Shelton. Should they reveal to you their physical and emotional scars? Do you want records from their psychiatrists along with the amount of medication that they are on because of this horiffic experience(s)? Tommy Shelton has not even apologized to some of his victims as stated by the victims themselves. Shouldn't you ask why hasn't he apologized for and/or acknowledged his predatory behavior?

I have seen how the possible revelation of sexual assault can affect a person (especially males) who has been vicitimized. I had a young man working for me who seemed to be somewhat normal until the revelation of sexual abuse by Catholic priests was in the media. He had been an altar boy and had close connection with his priests. His mother thought highly of their respective priests. However, this young man was so afraid that his mother would find out that he had been victimized. [He did not want to hurt or embarrass his family.] He tried to prolong his graduation because he knew that it was going to be painful to face his demon(s). I created a temporary position to buy him some time; however, the funding ceased for that position. Therefore, his departure was painful for him, my staff, and me. We wanted to heal him, but were powerless to face his situation for him. We were always and have continued to be a support mechanism for him and others.

When someone abuses/assaults an individual, the victim is scarred for life. It is an even greater insult when the perpetrator doesn't acknowledge or even apologize for their predatory act(s). When the predator states that he preys on children because he was a victim [I am not saying that he was not abused], but does that give him the right to ruin the lives of other people? He should get help. Remember Mark Foley. Mark Foley was not excused by the media or the American public for his inappropriate behavior toward boys (the pages on Capitol Hill); so why should Tommy be excused for his behavior?

This post has been edited by Chez: Dec 7 2006, 02:16 PM

[Aletheia]

Welcome Aletheia. You've asked several questions about proof. How much proof do you want? There are people who have said that they have been victimized by Tommy Shelton.

I understand being abused, I have first hand experience, but I don't assume and condemn those accused of being abusers when the only evidence is an empty or unsubstantiated accusation, because of that.

Since you say you have read all of the pinned stuff... (including following all of the links in the "guided tour"? ) then you know that we often refer to what can be posted as merely the "tip of the iceberg". Many before you have prodded and poked to try and get the rest up to the surface... but it is the nature of icebergs, that even if you chip away all that is above water level when you start, there is still the bulk of the berg left below.

There are reasons why this must be so... and they have been given over and over again, so I'm sure you'll run across them as you keep going. But briefly they fall under some distinctive categories.... some of which are legal, some sensitiveness to the personal lives of others, particularly those who have been in a victim category, and some because of the danger some would be put in if they spoke publicly.... or even privately.

It is hard for those of us with an inquisitive mind to stay patient while information comes out very slowly and incompletely. But if you stick with it here, you will find a LOT of pieces of the picture... and they will make more sense when you fit them together than they do separately and as you fit them together you will also get a feel for how to draw the lines between the dots... and also whose reports to give the most credence.

And along the way you will develop your own sensitivity as to what kinds of things can be (or should be) mentioned on the forums... and which should rightfully be held "off camera" as it were.

So ya all keep playing your games, and insinuating and acting mysterious and making stabs with the tip of your iceberg, and hinting at more, and expect that other's will just take your word for it, (obviously some will)but I never saw Jesus act like that, nor anybody honest.

I don't know you from Tommy Shelton. Anyone with an axe to grind can say anything on the internet, or pretend to be a legion, and do so. That proves nothing.

He may or may not be quilty, but it's obvious the truth isn't to be found in this anonymous he said-she said drama.

Thanks anyway. I'll look elsewhere.

~ Aletheia

This post has been edited by Aletheia: Dec 7 2006, 03:13 PM

[Observer]

Re: "So ya all keep playing your games, and insinuating and acting mysterious and expecting and making stabs with the tip of your iceberg, and expect that other's will just take your word for it, but I never saw Jesus act like that."

I understand.

I do not expect you to be convinced.

These forums exist for a major reason where people involved in this situation can share. There is a tremendous lot going on behind the scenes, as it should, that you are not aware of. But, I am not attempting to convince you.

No one has forced you to come here. If you do not like what you read, you do not have to read it.

It is as simple as that.

[princessdi]

Welcome Cindy!
Are you truly asking for someone to expose the names of the victims on the internet? I am almost positive, if as you say, you have firsthand knowledge with abuse, then you know this is information that needs to be given to the proper authorities as proof and evidence of a crime. I mean it goes both ways, we don't know you either. Why should that information be given to you just because you asked?

I don't know how your own particular situation played out, but I am sure that you wanted to be in control about how and when information about it was diseminated. You should also be familiar with the proper procedures. One being not to victimize the victims all over again by throwing their identites out onto the world wide web. I don't think that is something Jesus would do either.

I understand being abused, I have first hand experience, but I don't assume and condemn abusers without proof because of it.

So ya all keep playing your games, and insinuating and acting mysterious and expecting and making stabs with the tip of your iceberg, and expect that other's will just take your word for it, but I never saw Jesus act like that.

Honestly, I don't know you from Tommy Shelton. Anyone with an axe to grind can say anything on the internet. That proves nothing.

He may or may not be quilty, but it's obvious the truth isn't to be found in this anonymous he said-she said.

Thanks anyway.

~ Aletheia

[Aletheia]

Welcome Cindy!
Are you truly asking for someone to expose the names of the victims on the internet? I am almost positive, if as you say, you have firsthand knowledge with abuse, then you know this is information that needs to be given to the proper authorities as proof and evidence of a crime. I mean it goes both ways, we don't know you either. Why should that information be given to you just because you asked?

I don't know how your own particular situation played out, but I am sure that you wanted to be in control about how and when information about it was diseminated. You should also be familiar with the proper procedures. One being not to victimize the victims all over again by throwing their identites out onto the world wide web. I don't think that is something Jesus would do either.

Without my testimony, and the evidence there wasn't a case.

What I expected was that the Adventist people who are supposed to love truth, and glorify God, would not say anything or make any accusations without, or until, they had the proof and evidence to back up their words..

Yeah it's disapointing.

[Ed White]

Aletheia was you the one that mentioned being in a snow storm in the middle of a cornfield? To me you sound like one of the webmasters for Danny wearing silk & sleeping on satin sheets having Danny stoke up the fireplace for you. I have been wrong before so convince me otherwise.

[Aletheia]

Aletheia was you the one that mentioned being in a snow storm in the middle of a cornfield? To me you sound like one of the webmasters for Danny wearing silk & sleeping on satin sheets having Danny stoke up the fireplace for you. I have been wrong before so convince me otherwise.

Yes. That was me.

I could be a Jesuit also. I'm not showing you my ID.

The only brother I've ever met is Kenny, at a campmeeting a couple years back, and I'm familiar with your posts from elsewhere.

But claims prove nothing. My login name is *** on ***, come hang out awhle in the Adventist boards, and I'll show you my fruits.

My friends and family call me,
***

edited to remove personal info

This post has been edited by Aletheia: Jan 28 2007, 08:21 PM

[princessdi]

Exactly, but no one was aksing for it on the world wide web. It was the authorities to whom it was supplied. They are telling you there is further proof, but this is not the appropriiate time or place to disclose it. and that is true. You really should have more of an understanding of this process having been through it. I am almost positive you would not, even now, appreciate anyone suppling the details(including your name)of your own ordeal in this forum, as you said, you don't know us. Why is it so hard for you to understand that these victims(children at that) also deserve the same common respect?

Without my testimony, and the evidence there wasn't a case.

What I expected was that the Adventist people who are supposed to love truth, and glorify God, would not say anything or make any accusations without, or until, they had the proof and evidence to back up their words..

Yeah it's disapointing.

[PeacefulBe]

No child molester, molests children in front of anyone. I am sure you know this. However, a major portion of pedophiles have been those who work with children. Thus, when they are caught the provisions that they are never alone or work with children.

Point is, until he is cleared of all allegations, precautions should be taken. It doesn't seem it has been settled one way or the other. He was just removed from the situation. If they are found to be untrue, he can go back to his duties with the children. If they are found to be true, however, they are opening themselves up another can of worms. People will not take kindly to their children being exposed to a child molester on or off camera.

You are correct. However, a child molester/predator very often will "groom" the intended victim(s) in many ways in full view of all. Also, just the fact that a person is holding a place of authority builds a sense of trust in that person by those who are vulnerable.

[princessdi]

Exactly, which from outward appearances looks very innocent.

You are correct. However, a child molester/predator very often will "groom" the intended victim(s) in many ways in full view of all. Also, just the fact that a person is holding a place of authority builds a sense of trust in that person by those who are vulnerable.

[PeacefulBe]

Yes. That was me.

I could be a Jesuit also. I'm not showing you my ID.

The only brother I've ever met is Kenny, at a campmeeting a couple years back, and I'm familiar with your posts from elsewhere.

But claims prove nothing. My login name is Danya1844 on Beliefnet, come hang out awhle in the Adventist boards, and I'll show you my fruits.

My friends and family call me,
Cindy

If you truly are in search of truth then carefully read this particular thread from the very beginning. I find it a little hard to believe you have done so as yet when I read your most recent comments.

The investigation that is going on here and behind the scenes, as Observer stated, is not about inventing slanderous things or slinging mud, it is about seeking to reveal the truth to protect those at risk, help those who have been victimized to heal, and salvage our very respect as a denomination who claim to follow the commandments of God.

When a ministry, such as 3abn, portrays its mission as taking the undiluted truth to all of the world but then appears to be lying about and covering up the past actions of an alleged child molester and putting other young people at risk in the process, someone needs to step up and demand accountability.

PB

[Richard Sherwin]

Aletheia is just asking questions, I don't think we need to accuse her of anything. When I was new to the 3abn saga I also was a skeptic of the misdeeds going on there so I asked questions as well. We need to be kind to each other.

My appologies Aletheia.

If you read enough over at Maritime you will see a letter from one of those molested. I don't think there can be much more proof than that.

Richard

Aletheia was you the one that mentioned being in a snow storm in the middle of a cornfield? To me you sound like one of the webmasters for Danny wearing silk & sleeping on satin sheets having Danny stoke up the fireplace for you. I have been wrong before so convince me otherwise.

[princessdi]

hmmmmm I thought this was an Adventist board........

Yes. That was me.

I could be a Jesuit also. I'm not showing you my ID.

The only brother I've ever met is Kenny, at a campmeeting a couple years back, and I'm familiar with your posts from elsewhere.

But claims prove nothing. My login name is Danya1844 on Beliefnet, come hang out awhle in the Adventist boards, and I'll show you my fruits.

My friends and family call me,
Cindy

[Observer]

There is an additional reason why we do not post all that we know. Believe it or not, there are people working very hard behind the scenes to bring some resolution to this mess. There are people on both sides of this issue who are so working. Of course one could never resolve issues if one did not talk to the so-called "other side."


Folks, such efforts would never succeed if they were done in private. Those discussions must be conducted in privacy, behind closed doors, in order to have any hope of success. Those who are engaged in such discussions cannot comment on them at this time. In fact, most will probably not acknowledge that they are engaged in such discussions.

IF those discussions succeed, the time will come for public comment on their success.

If those discussions fail, the time will come for some public comment on their failure.

What will be accomplished, and what will be posted is only speculative, and people must wait to see.