Disgust!, disgusted by the smear in this site Options

[Joe Smith]

Someone very wise once said render unto God the things that are God's and unto Caesar the things that are Caesars.

There's been a division of Church and State according to God's plan ever since probation on the Nation of Israel closed. The Vatican with it's pedophile priest problem is due in part because they are a Church and a State who still thinks they have precident over any other.

Now the Church of Israel which continued on as Spiritual Israel, is all over the world and the individuals in it are subject to the civil laws in their respective Nations and countries.

What does that mean practically?

A Child molester, a rapist , etc. need to be prosecuted by the state IMMEDIATLY.

Then that person can be disciplined by the church accordingly.

A church can not take the place of the civil authorities nor flout the law.

But sins and erors which are Church business outside of that type of criminal behavior is nobodies business and is what is supposed to be dealt with promptly and privately.

e civil laws have changed over the years, it wasn't so long ago men could beat anf rape both their wives and children and get away with it. So how did they handle such before the laws regarding child abuse?

Since what Ellen White wrote was being discussed I thought this might be of interest. It's a letter to a man who apparently is being dealt with as repentant one, which admittedly is not what the story is regarding Tommy, but still I found it interesting, because she is not in favor of it being made public:


Praise God for you Aletheia... I couldn't have said it any better. Those Bold Quotes are just that BOLD. I am just as against the ruination of children as anyone. The alarm trumpet has been sounded and resounded again and again. The blood is off our hands already. Mrs white says it should be kept to a low profile now as not to hurt the cause of our God any more than it already has. The alleged perpurtrator has been confronted. It's not up to us to execute him in the media or anywhere else.

Joe

[watchbird]

Hmm, now here's a thought. I wonder what I would find if I did a IP address trace on Joe and Joy? We already did that with Linda (Linda is a member, did an interview here) and Sister and concluded that they are not using the same computer or computers in the same household or even city for that matter.

But the results of the search from Joe and Joy, now that is interesting.

Maybe you could share with us what you found "interesting".

[Aletheia]

Maybe you could share with us what you found "interesting".

Maybe we could have the same standards for all anonymous people?



http://www.blacksda.com/forums/index.php?s...st&p=164552

[Chez]

JOE and ALETHEIA,
You don't get it. Danny made the Linda issue public. When Tommy molested the first boy, it became public. "Mess" smells; it stinks. No matter how hard one tries to conceal it, it STINKS! What Tommy allegedly did (according to Roger Clem, the victim, and others) to those boys STINKS! HE MADE IT PUBLIC.

I highly respect EGW, but she isn't God and never has professed to be God. Therefore, what the Lord says supersedes what EGW says. People have taken and are still taking 3ABN to the Lord in prayer. The Lord has said for some to speak (Let the Redeemed of the Lord say so) and others to be silent. As Christians, we are bound to do what God says.

3ABN is a good ministry that is being contaminated from within rather than from without. 3ABN should thoroughly clean up its own house for the sake of the GOSPEL!

This post has been edited by Chez: Dec 22 2006, 11:07 AM

[awesumtenor]

Maybe we could have the same standards for all anonymous people?
http://www.blacksda.com/forums/index.php?s...st&p=164552

Having the same standard means you don't get to come in here and accuse/cajole/browbeat others into divulging who they are while at the same time doing all you can to remain anonymous yourself.

The bible says you have to take the log out of your own eye FIRST before you attempt to remove the sawdust speck in your brother's eye.

So when you have done so and revealed yourself to all concerned, then and only then will you be in a position to require that of others; until such time, however it's ... your continued indignation notwithstanding.

In His service,
Mr. J ( who doesn't hide behind anonymity )

[Aletheia]

Having the same standard means you don't get to come in here and accuse/cajole/browbeat others into divulging who they are while at the same time doing all you can to remain anonymous yourself.

The bible says you have to take the log out of your own eye FIRST before you attempt to remove the sawdust speck in your brother's eye.

So when you have done so and revealed yourself to all concerned, then and only then will you be in a position to require that of others; until such time, however it's ... your continued indignation notwithstanding.

In His service,
Mr. J ( who doesn't hide behind anonymity )

My real name is Cindy and I live in Indiana and have my home church listed in the town of lafayette. What's so anonymous about that?

And it's not me who insists on privacy while bearing personal witness either against or in defense of another. The people who do so should allow the others the same priveledge, or they are the hypocrites.

I follow my own standards which I have already posted, if I violate that PLEASE come talking about the beam in my eye, until then, this is just another accusation without merit.

"Identities don't matter if you are not posting anything that could not be posted by any other person like I am doing. But when it comes to personal testimony about another which is not based on public knowledge available to all? It does matter. Anonymous identities and testimony are not admissable in any court of law, whether for the defense or for the prosecution. (Here say evidence in NEVER allowed) and God's standards and biblical principles via his civil and church laws? MUCH higher."

[princessdi]

Well said, Chez! All these things were public knowledge somewhere, but available to all before now.

JOE and ALETHEIA,
You don't get it. Danny made the Linda issue public. When Tommy molested the first boy, it became public. "Mess" smells; it stinks. No matter how hard one tries to conceal it, it STINKS! What Tommy allegedly did (according to Roger Clem, the victim, and others) to those boys STINKS! HE MADE IT PUBLIC.

I highly respect EGW, but she isn't God and never has professed to be God. Therefore, what the Lord says supersedes what EGW says. People have taken and are still taking 3ABN to the Lord in prayer. The Lord has said for some to speak (Let the Redeemed of the Lord say so) and others to be silent. As Christians, we are bound to do what God says.

3ABN is a good ministry that is being contaminated from within rather than from without. 3ABN should thoroughly clean up its own house for the sake of the GOSPEL!

[sister]

Joe,

PB and I are still waiting for your evidence in regard to your accusations toward me. Come on Joe, you claim to have evidence that I have written things that only Danny's wife could know. So, where is it? Or is it just another attempt to take the spotlight off Danny and Tommy Shelton?

PB hopefully WatchBird's directions lead you to the posts you were searching for, but if not PM me.

Joe, you might want to go back and read those posts yourself and tell me what the secret information is that only Linda would know.

[awesumtenor]

My real name is Cindy and I live in Indiana and have my home church listed in the town of lafayette. What's so anonymous about that?

Nothing... but it took this exchange for you to put that out there.

And it's not me who insists on privacy while bearing personal witness either against or in defense of another. The people who do so should allow the others the same priveledge, or they are the hypocrites.

If you have read the things in the various threads, you will see that opportunity has been abd continues to be given to all parties concerned to refute everything said.... which is consideration that at least one side of this issue has not been willing to extend to the other. And, if you have read the things in the various threads, none of those who call themselves defending Danny have declared their identity and have been adamant in maintaining their anonymity... even as they make the same argument you are trying to put forth.

So for you to imply that just one side of this has done that demonstrates at best a failure to pay attention...

I follow my own standards which I have already posted, if I violate that PLEASE come talking about the beam in my eye, until then, this is just another accusation without merit.

You follow your own standard? Is that anything like your doing what is right in your own eyes? If so, I 'd just like to point out to you that another way of saying that is "all we, like sheep, have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way..."

There is a lesson in there, Cindy from Lafayette, IN, if you have ears to hear...

In His service,
Mr. J from Brooklyn by way of DC and a host of other places...

[Lee]

It is all about taking the high road here, no matter what roads others chose to take. Ellen White was used by God to communicate to us, His people. To not agree with what she said is not to agree with God Himself. God chose her to be of help to us, even in these end times. To reject her is to reject God.

Aletheia--you are to be commended in taking the high road on this subject. The quotes by Mrs. White are applicable for today just as they were then--just as the Holy Bible is applicable to us today. The principles never go away but are wisdom to those who believe and follow them.

[PeacefulBe]

Someone very wise once said render unto God the things that are God's and unto Caesar the things that are Caesars.

There's been a division of Church and State according to God's plan ever since probation on the Nation of Israel closed. The Vatican with it's pedophile priest problem is due in part because they are a Church and a State who still thinks they have precident over any other.

Now the Church of Israel which continued on as Spiritual Israel, is all over the world and the individuals in it are subject to the civil laws in their respective Nations and countries.

What does that mean practically?

A Child molester, a rapist , etc. need to be prosecuted by the state IMMEDIATLY.

Then that person can be disciplined by the church accordingly.

A church can not take the place of the civil authorities nor flout the law.

But sins and erors which are Church business outside of that type of criminal behavior is nobodies business and is what is supposed to be dealt with promptly and privately.

e civil laws have changed over the years, it wasn't so long ago men could beat anf rape both their wives and children and get away with it. So how did they handle such before the laws regarding child abuse?

Alethia, I agree with you wholeheartedly here. Allegations of molestation cannot be swept under the rug or hidden in the closet. They need to be dealt with by civil authorities. That is "rendering to Caesar" as Christ Himself counseled us to do.

Anything less puts more children at risk of becoming victims.

One has to wonder what the true motivation is in attempting to cover up the true nature and extent of the allegations and have the appearance of minimizing the whole issue.

Since what Ellen White wrote was being discussed I thought this might be of interest. It's a letter to a man who apparently is being dealt with as repentant one, which admittedly is not what the story is regarding Tommy, but still I found it interesting, because she is not in favor of it being made public:

Thank you for finding and posting the SOP statements. They were very illuminating. While, as you pointed out, this wasn't a situation identical to the allegations against Tommy Shelton, there were many wise counsels.

If you will take hold of Christ by living faith, and humble your soul before Him, He will undertake your case and angels will guard you. But you must resist the devil. You must educate yourself to a different train of thought. Put no confidence in yourself. Never seek the companionship of women or girls. Keep away from them. Your moral taste is so perverted that you will ruin yourself and ruin many souls if you do not turn square about. Educate your mind to study the Word of God. Study it with your whole heart and pray much. Everlasting life is worth a lifelong, persevering, untiring effort. Educate that mind which you have misused and directed in wrong channels of thought.Educate it to dwell on the life, the character, and the lessons of Christ. . . . {TSB 127.3}

Do not feel that the worst thing for you is to lose your credentials. You are not worthy to be entrusted with the care of the flock.

Is this wisdom being used at 3abn? From what I have read that doesn't appear to be the case.

This post has been edited by PeacefullyBewildered: Dec 22 2006, 12:02 PM

[PeacefulBe]

Praise God for you Aletheia... I couldn't have said it any better. Those Bold Quotes are just that BOLD. I am just as against the ruination of children as anyone. The alarm trumpet has been sounded and resounded again and again. The blood is off our hands already. Mrs white says it should be kept to a low profile now as not to hurt the cause of our God any more than it already has. The alleged perpurtrator has been confronted. It's not up to us to execute him in the media or anywhere else.

Joe

Can you tell us that the alarm trumpet has been sounded through the halls of 3abn and the surrounding areas making certain that everyone knows there is an alleged child predator employed there? How can the blood be off your hands if the potential still exists for further victims to be created?

And what of the existing alleged victims? Has Biblical restitution been made to them or just denials and threats of lawsuits? Is this keeping a low profile? What do you think Jesus would want done for them? After all, He purchased each one of these precious ones with His blood.

[inga]

You left out the part before that, and after it:
1Ti 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
21 I charge [thee] before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.
Here is what he was talking about:
One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him [that which is] wrong;
Then both the men, between whom the controversy [is], shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days;And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, [if] the witness [be] a false witness, [and] hath testified falsely against his brother;
Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you.

And those which remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil among you. Deut 19
Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Ah, of cource, Aletheia! That's exactly where this forum has proven useful. A great many details have, indeed, been verified by two or more witnesses. Those that were afraid to speak up because they thought they were alone (abusers isolate their victims) have discovered that others had the same or similar experiences. Some of the details about Danny's activities have been verified not only by eye witnesses but by written documentation.

Note that the text does not say that no one can mention a sin to anyone until someone else mentions it first. That would be an excellent formula for a cover-up! However, it takes two or more witnesses to condemn a man before an arbitrator/judge.

As for following the counsel of Christ ... It's quite evident that numerous individuals have spoken with Danny directly, including high-profile ministers of the gospel. But Danny has not seen fit to confess and repent.

Those who aid and abet wrong-doers like to cloak themselves in SOP quoatations to makes themselves appear virtuous. But Ellen White has a few things to say about them too:

" I was pointed back, and saw that in every important move, every decision made or point gained by God's people, some have arisen to carry matters to extremes, and to move in an extravagant manner, which has disgusted unbelievers, distressed God's people, and brought the cause of God into disrepute. The people whom God is leading out in these last days, will be troubled with just such things. But much evil will be avoided if the ministers of Christ will be of one mind, united in their plans of action, and united in effort. If they will stand together, sustain one another, and faithfully reprove and rebuke wrong, they will soon cause it to wither. But Satan has controlled these matters very much. Private members and even preachers have sympathized with disaffected ones who have been reproved for their wrongs, and division of feeling has been the result. The one who has ventured out and discharged his disagreeable duty by faithfully meeting error and wrong, is grieved and wounded that he receives not the fullest sympathy of his preaching brethren. He becomes discouraged in discharging these painful duties, lays down the cross, and withholds the pointed testimony. His soul is shut up in darkness, and the church suffer for the lack of the very testimony which God designed should live among His people. Satan's object is gained when the faithful testimony is suppressed. Those who so readily sympathize with the wrong consider it a virtue; but they realize not that they are exerting a scattering influence, and that they themselves help to carry out Satan's plans. " Vol 1, Testimonies to the Church , p. 122

Note that she is here referring to those who "carry matters to extremes" -- which could certainly be applied to Danny & cohorts. Do you suppose God looks more kindly on those "who so readily sympathize with the wrong and consider it a virtue" when the wrong is even more blatant (e.g. adultery, abuse. child molestation, not to mention misuse of entrusted funds)? I suppose I could hunt up more quotes on sympathizing with wrong-doers because I know they exist, but those who have an agenda to sympathize with wrong-doers are unlikely to be convinced by more quotes if they aren't convinced by one. Just remember that the SOP "sword" cuts both ways!

Lord, we need the eye salve you have promised!!

Inga (not a pseudonym)

This post has been edited by inga: Dec 22 2006, 12:34 PM

[PeacefulBe]

PB, Instead of giving you the direct link to each, I'll provide detailed information on how to find it for the benefit of both you and others who may not be acquainted with the way the search function works here.

In order to do a search you need to go to the Search function listed at the top of the page so you can change one of the options before searching.

When you get to the Search Options page, go to the lower right corner where you will see "Search Type". It will have a dot before "Show results as topics". Click on the other option, "Show results as posts" and the dot will move to that selection.

Now insert your keyword in the box provided. Choose something short and distinctive. In this case, use just Susan for one search, and just Ronnie for the other. The posts you are looking for will be found in the Unauthorized History thread, so you can quickly scroll down the results hits until you come to ones from that thread.

You will find something rather interesting there when you compare it with Joe's accusation against Sister.

Watchbird,
Thanks for the Search primer! I followed it and found the information.

Yep, some rather interesting similarities in the words from both Joe and Joy.

[Pickle]

My suggestion, folks, is to remember the days of Gore vs. Bush in Florida. No matter what the question or point raised, Pataki said, "We've had a count, a recount of the count, a recount of the recount of the count. Enough is enough." Something like that. A broken record. "The children of this world are wiser than the children of light."

Shall I demonstrate, with a few sentences that may catch the eye amidst the mass of words and topics and distractions?

Joe, could you please explain for us:

• Why did Danny, according to Walt, tell Walt in 2003 that the Tommy Shelton child molestation allegations were 30 years old, when he knew that that could not be the case?
• Why did Danny allow Walt to think that Dryden had the only accounts of such allegations, when Roger Clem had come forward in that little community before the Dryden letter was ever written?
• Why in the world would Danny allow the financial security of both 3ABN and the IL Conf. to be jeopardized by thus putting church school and conference academy students at potential risk?
• Why would Danny not inform conference Pastor John Lomacang, who presumably would have some interest in the safety of these students, of the existence of these allegations, since as of September 1, 2006, he told me that he had never heard of the Dryden letter and/or these allegations?

He who writes least gets read most.