Disgust!, disgusted by the smear in this site Options

[lookin4truth]

Many have made clear their views, that the sins which have been committed should be kept quiet, and private.

The Apostle Paul did not seem to agree. Yes, when one is confronted with their sin, and is repentant, and willing to make right their wrongs, then discretion is in order.

But, when those in error continued in their behavior, it seems Paul had no problem with making it public. He wrote about them in letters, which would be read before the churches, and ultimately become part of the bible, which we are obligated to use as our example.

(1Ti 5:20) Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

(1Ti 1:19-20) Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

(2Ti 4:14-15) Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works: Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words.

(3 Jo 1:9) I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.

You may remember how Peter handled Ananias and Sapphira. Check out Acts, chapters four and five.

The leadership of the SDA Church, and 3ABN, would be well advised to pick up a broom and clean their own house. Ted Haggard and Christopher Beard, of the New Life Church, in Colorado Springs, ought to serve as a good example of the outcome of letting the world get hold of the broom first.

Although it is disturbing that there are those that preach strongly against divorce, and hold others to a high standard, and then set all new rules for themselves, there are much greater sins to be dealt with.

When a known pedophile, who has left victims in different states, is allowed to continue to be shown on TV, and lifted up as an example of the SDA Church, it is not only biblically wrong, it is CRIMINAL.

The victims in Illinois and the victims in Virginia are not acquainted, and happened years apart. Those who keep denying the truth are allowing the threat of more victims, and compounding the damage to those who have already been victimized.

To those who are involved in the sin, and those who refuse to deal with it, keep the following verse in mind.

(Num 32:23) But if ye will not do so, behold, ye have sinned against the LORD: and be sure your sin will find you out.

[Johann]

I have seen the house near the older production studios. Fire departments use houses like that one for practice.

I was right there too when Joseph told me his story. He was still there shortly before Linda got fired by 3ABN.

This post has been edited by Johann: Dec 22 2006, 12:50 AM

[Denny]

To go public with this information against 3ABN would be bringing dishonor the God's Name before the world.

God has told us not to go to the world with our "in church" problems. Read 3 SM beginning with p. 299 concerning lawsuits. We are not to sue our brother and take him to worldly courts. The principle behind this is airing our "dirty laundry" before the world. Too bad it is done on here anyway. A private forum would be better for the exchange of words on this whole subject.

It says when we go ahead and go to worldly courts against fellow SDA's that God does not hear our prayers.

Of course all of the above depends on whether you believe in the SOP or not.

So where Adventists gonna get their divorces from? etc

[sister]

Sister, you have painted yourself into a corner. You have made statements that either 1 of 2 things are true. Either you are a great inventer of events OR you are Linda Shelton because only she would know some of the things that you are telling about Danny. Only his wife would know.

So many of your statements cannot be verified such as your tale about Ronnie (The night watchman ) and Susan, the health food store lady. Some don't know that they BOTH passed away just a few months ago.

Joe

Joe, PB and Sister are still waiting for your evidence that I have written statements in an Unauthorized History of 3ABN that only Linda could know. I think the proper expression for this is: "put up or shut up". We are still waiting on you Joe, where is the evidence?

[PeacefulBe]

Many have made clear their views, that the sins which have been committed should be kept quiet, and private.

The Apostle Paul did not seem to agree. Yes, when one is confronted with their sin, and is repentant, and willing to make right their wrongs, then discretion is in order.

But, when those in error continued in their behavior, it seems Paul had no problem with making it public. He wrote about them in letters, which would be read before the churches, and ultimately become part of the bible, which we are obligated to use as our example.

(1Ti 5:20) Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

(1Ti 1:19-20) Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

(2Ti 4:14-15) Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works: Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words.

(3 Jo 1:9) I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.

You may remember how Peter handled Ananias and Sapphira. Check out Acts, chapters four and five.

The leadership of the SDA Church, and 3ABN, would be well advised to pick up a broom and clean their own house. Ted Haggard and Christopher Beard, of the New Life Church, in Colorado Springs, ought to serve as a good example of the outcome of letting the world get hold of the broom first.

Although it is disturbing that there are those that preach strongly against divorce, and hold others to a high standard, and then set all new rules for themselves, there are much greater sins to be dealt with.

When a known pedophile, who has left victims in different states, is allowed to continue to be shown on TV, and lifted up as an example of the SDA Church, it is not only biblically wrong, it is CRIMINAL.

The victims in Illinois and the victims in Virginia are not acquainted, and happened years apart. Those who keep denying the truth are allowing the threat of more victims, and compounding the damage to those who have already been victimized.

To those who are involved in the sin, and those who refuse to deal with it, keep the following verse in mind.

(Num 32:23) But if ye will not do so, behold, ye have sinned against the LORD: and be sure your sin will find you out.

Looking4truth - you have stated truth eloquently! Welcome!

To those who have chosen to minimize sin and hide the truth, please study Looking4truth's post carefully.

[sister]

I would like to know how Joe knows what he thinks only Danny and his wife would know?

Joe, and while you are answering the other question. Please answer the above from Lurker, "How do you know what only Danny and his wife would know?"

[PeacefulBe]

Sister, I have done searches and can't find the posts about "the night watchman" and "Susan, the health store" woman. Could you provide me a link or direct me to the appropriate area?

[Aletheia]

and that is why the church is still dealing with mess, kids being molested, incest, homosexuality, among other things... people have kept quiet for far to long in my opinion.....

Someone very wise once said render unto God the things that are God's and unto Caesar the things that are Caesars.

There's been a division of Church and State according to God's plan ever since probation on the Nation of Israel closed. The Vatican with it's pedophile priest problem is due in part because they are a Church and a State who still thinks they have precident over any other.

Now the Church of Israel which continued on as Spiritual Israel, is all over the world and the individuals in it are subject to the civil laws in their respective Nations and countries.

What does that mean practically?

A Child molester, a rapist , etc. need to be prosecuted by the state IMMEDIATLY.

Then that person can be disciplined by the church accordingly.

A church can not take the place of the civil authorities nor flout the law.

But sins and erors which are Church business outside of that type of criminal behavior is nobodies business and is what is supposed to be dealt with promptly and privately.

e civil laws have changed over the years, it wasn't so long ago men could beat anf rape both their wives and children and get away with it. So how did they handle such before the laws regarding child abuse?

Since what Ellen White wrote was being discussed I thought this might be of interest. It's a letter to a man who apparently is being dealt with as repentant one, which admittedly is not what the story is regarding Tommy, but still I found it interesting, because she is not in favor of it being made public:

Child Abuse
Dear Brother: I have just read your letter dated April 26. May the Lord help me to write you the very words that will be for your restoration and not for your destruction. {TSB 124.3}

I feel sorry, very sorry, for you. Sin, my brother, is sin; it is the transgression of the law, and should I try to lessen that sin before you I would not be doing you any good. You as a Christian receive harm to your own soul. Your whole religious experience is cheapened, and you cannot have faith and trust in God while you have unclean thoughts and defiled hands. The work needs to begin at the soul, and then it will work out in the character. Your mind and heart are polluted, else all such actions would be loathsome. It is a great sin, especially for one who professes to be preaching the gospel of Christ. {TSB 124.4}

I have had this class of sins presented to me as producing moral defilement. What can the impression be upon those youth whose bodies you degrade by your actions? How can you be a shepherd of the sheep and lambs while corrupting their minds, and tainting and polluting their moral sense? Would you consider this matter as lightly as you have done should a minister of the gospel, as Elder W, do such things to your sisters or to your children? This is a crime in the sight of God and I cannot cover it over as a light matter. It is a Sodomitish sin. It is tainting and polluting in all its tendencies, and an abomination in the sight of a holy God. It is practicing iniquity. {TSB 125.1}

Any youth who would submit her body to be handled by a man is in no way fit for the kingdom of heaven. All this vile practice and commonness is what is ruining our youth. Would you practice this upon the body of your own child? Would you not consider it incest, discovering her nakedness? All who do such things are leading young women into abominable practices. I know what these things lead to. To lewdness, lustful practices. Consider how you must dishonor and degrade the truth. Oh, God hates all such sins. How could you do this and at the same time be preaching the Word to sinners--yourself a sinner? {TSB 125.2}

I know how God regards these sins. A married man, a minister of the gospel, leading the lambs of the flock into Sodomitish practices. Now for Christ's sake do not again practice this wicked work and destroy your own soul and the souls of others. It is well that you have not been permitted to continue this awful polluting practice. It is no light sin. The effect upon the mind of the one who submits herself to your touch cannot be measured. Human beings are the Lord's property, and to do any action to corrupt them is a terrible insult to Jesus Christ, who gave His life for these precious souls, that they should not perish in their sins, but have everlasting life, and such actions may ruin the souls for whom Christ has died. Will you continue this work to ruin souls? {TSB 125.3}

Looking unto Jesus who is the Author and Finisher of your faith, you will be of good courage in the Lord. We cannot but know that the end of all things is at hand. I come to you as a physician of souls; I tell you that it is not possible for you to act as a minister. What are you doing? Leading young women to the tree of knowledge of evil practices and teaching them to pluck the fruit which is only evil. This is doing Satan's work most effectually. It is poisoning minds and filling them with unholy imaginings. {TSB 126.1}

These are the very sins which corrupted Sodom. Their evil practices did not come all at once. First one man and woman stupefied themselves by unholy, polluted habits. Then as inhabitants settled in Sodom, they did as you are doing, educating others in a line that is forbidden of God. And so as the inhabitants continued to multiply, these ministers of sin continued in educating them in their own defiling practices until if any person came into their midst their first thoughts were to educate them in their evil work, until Sodom became renowned for its pollutions. Their sins reached unto heaven, and the Lord would bear with them no longer. He destroyed them and all that was beautiful, that made it as a second Eden, for the earth was defiled under the inhabitants thereof. {TSB 126.2}

These bodies that you tamper with are the purchased property of Jesus Christ. I knew this was your sin, but I knew also that if the truth was enthroned in your heart it would make this sin appear to you in its true enormity, for truth brought into the soul temple will expel lust and defilement from the heart. . . . {TSB 126.3}

You say you did not commit adultery. God charges adultery against everyone who doeth these things, and all who will communicate these vile practices to another are polluting that soul with vile imaginations. Can you not see, can you not understand by your own experience, that you are leading youth into this habit of self abuse? You have given them the fruit of the tree of knowledge [of good and evil], and every evil communicated is causing them to partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge [of good and evil], which God has forbidden to be eaten. . . . {TSB 127.1}

How can I frame words to express the enormity of this awful sin? How can I present it in such a manner that you will no longer look upon it, as you have done, as no great wrong? I have granddaughters, the children of my son, W. C. White. If I were forced to choose whether these children should be exposed to these temptations, educated in these evil practices, or be cut down by death, I would say, Let them die in their innocency. Let them not be corrupted by eating the apples of Sodom. . . . {TSB 127.2}

If you will take hold of Christ by living faith, and humble your soul before Him, He will undertake your case and angels will guard you. But you must resist the devil. You must educate yourself to a different train of thought. Put no confidence in yourself. Never seek the companionship of women or girls. Keep away from them. Your moral taste is so perverted that you will ruin yourself and ruin many souls if you do not turn square about. Educate your mind to study the Word of God. Study it with your whole heart and pray much. Everlasting life is worth a lifelong, persevering, untiring effort. Educate that mind which you have misused and directed in wrong channels of thought.Educate it to dwell on the life, the character, and the lessons of Christ. . . . {TSB 127.3}

Do not feel that the worst thing for you is to lose your credentials. You are not worthy to be entrusted with the care of the flock. You must know this without my telling you. A little time of probation is still granted you; make the most of it in searching the Word. Every lost blessing is a great loss to you, but if you come into a right position before God you may now receive forgiveness for the past, but do not let your future life have the dark blot of the past. . . . {TSB 128.1}

You ask me if you shall make a public confession. I say, No. Do not dishonor the Master by making public the fact that one ministering in the Word could be guilty of such sin as you have committed. It would be a disgrace to the ministry. Do not give publicity to this matter by any means. It would do injustice to the whole cause of God. It would create impure thoughts in the minds of many even to hear these things repeated. Defile not the lips even by communicating this to your wife, to make her ashamed and bow her head in sorrow. Go to God and to the brethren who know this terrible chapter in your experience and say what you have to say, then let prayer be offered to God in your behalf. Cultivate sobriety. Walk carefully and prayerfully before God. Acquire moral stamina by saying, "I will not dishonor my Redeemer
{TSB 128.2}

Transmitting Messages of Reproof. I am sorry that you feel injured because I let Brother A have a copy of the letter I sent to you. I did not do this to injure you in any way. You had yourself written me that you had made matters known to him concerning yourself and he thought you should confess the whole matter to the church. I thought that letter would prevent any such movement and keep the matter as private as possible. {TSB 128.3}

I do not in any way favor his reading the matter to your mother. She has an abundance of sorrows to carry. I did not sanction any public exposure. I thought that the letter, which condemned the sin, also encouraged you to hope and trust in God. I supposed that it would help Brother A to help you. If it has added to your affliction, making matters any worse for you, I am sincerely sorry. {TSB 129.1}

Whenever I have written a message of reproof, I have always sent one copy to the minister who is officiating in the church, that he may have wisdom to recover such ones as are in danger through temptation, giving them such advice as they need. I also knew, under existing circumstances, that it would not be possible to give you credentials as a shepherd, recommending you to the confidence of the people, because knowing your course of action, if you should in any way be overcome, the Lord would make the conference guilty of the sin of which you are guilty.--Letter 120, 1897. {TSB 129.2}

This post has been edited by Aletheia: Dec 22 2006, 08:20 AM

[watchbird]

Sister, I have done searches and can't find the posts about "the night watchman" and "Susan, the health store" woman. Could you provide me a link or direct me to the appropriate area?

PB, Instead of giving you the direct link to each, I'll provide detailed information on how to find it for the benefit of both you and others who may not be acquainted with the way the search function works here.

In order to do a search you need to go to the Search function listed at the top of the page so you can change one of the options before searching.

When you get to the Search Options page, go to the lower right corner where you will see "Search Type". It will have a dot before "Show results as topics". Click on the other option, "Show results as posts" and the dot will move to that selection.

Now insert your keyword in the box provided. Choose something short and distinctive. In this case, use just Susan for one search, and just Ronnie for the other. The posts you are looking for will be found in the Unauthorized History thread, so you can quickly scroll down the results hits until you come to ones from that thread.

You will find something rather interesting there when you compare it with Joe's accusation against Sister.

[summertime]

You couldn't PAY ME TO HAVE DANNY AS MY SON-IN-LAW!!! I WOULDN'T WANT TO BE IN THE SAME STATE (let alone the same church) WITH AN "UNREPENTENT" CHILD MOLESTER!!!!!!

Note: Unrepentent includes one who has not repented, who has not sought and received psychological help, who has voluntarily removed themselves from close contact with children, who has not apologized to the victims and admitted culpability, etc. Should I continue?

I would not want Danny to be my son-in-law. Nor my grandson-in-law. This pretty lady that he married is about the same age as my grandaughter. She married an older man also, and has lived to regret it. I think that will be true in this case also---given a little time. I have not heard for a long time if Brandy has both of her girls with her. Anybody know? I would not trust my girls in the Shelton clan.--not even if she was a biological daughter.

[Pickle]

I am absolutely in agreement with you. We need watchman on the walls....

Joy

Joy,

A pastor called me today and suggested that you and Joe just might be Mollie and Hal, and that Danny, who has said that these forums amount to little, must be scared if he is having folks like you come and do battle here.

Such speculation may or may not prove to be true, but you might be able to help me out on the following. John Lomacang promised me on Sept. 1 that I and whoever came with me could see the very same phone card phone records he had personally seen, amounting to hundreds of hours of phone calls by Linda to Norway, if we came down to 3ABN. He said that wasn't his decision.

I wrote John on Sept. 8 and told him I might be able to take him up on that on Oct. 23. It took 3 1/2 weeks and another email before I heard anything back from him at all. It took an additional 2 weeks and 4 emails to him and 3 emails to Mollie to get no reply from John and a single reply from Mollie informing me that they had chosen to break their promise. I then wrote Mollie the following email, and have yet to receive any reply whatsoever:

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RE: Appointment to see phone records
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 09:33:21 -0500
From: Mollie Steenson

Hi Bob,

... we have turned this matter over to a group of respected church leaders who will be looking at all the evidence, not just portions of it, and they will publicly give their findings in the near future.

...

Have a great day,

Mollie Steenson
3ABN GM

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RE: Appointment to see phone records
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 20:22:06 -0500
To: Mollie Steenson

Hi Mollie.

Thanks for your reply. Here are three short, follow-up questions.

1) Has there been a change of policy since September 1, when Pastor Lomacang promised that we could see the phone card phone records if we came by? He indicated that that wasn't his decision. Or was he somehow totally mistaken?

2) Pastor Lomacang indicated that these records showed hundreds of hours of phone calls, but I have thus far been unable to confirm from him that these hundreds of hours are actual time spent on the phone rather than billed phone card units. Can you confirm this?

3) What group of respected church leaders has the matter been turned over to? Who are they?

4) Will they be making public the evidence that supports their findings, or will they only make public their findings?

I ask this last question because from a damage control and apologetic perspective, the only real way to put all the rumors to rest once and for all is to come across as if 3ABN has nothing to hide.

Take for example these phone records, which Pastor Lomacang stated emphatically that he had personally seen. After he promised that we could see them if we stopped by, it has taken more than five weeks to discover that 3ABN will not allow this, and that gives the impression that they either do not exist or that they do not say what he claimed they say.

This is even more so the case since I asked him on September 8 and October 2 and October 3 and October 10 and October 16 whether the hundreds of hours were actual minutes or billed minutes, and though I did get a short reply from him on October 2, he has yet to answer that simple question. The definite impression being given is that there never were hundreds of hours spent on the phone.

I think a lot of these rumors could have been easily avoided or dispelled if 3ABN had handled these PR matters differently. Along these lines, I would suggest that great care be taken in the selection of which respected church leaders examine all the evidence. If it is perceived that the panel is stacked in favor of 3ABN from the very beginning, it will not settle the questions in people's minds, especially if none of the evidence is ever made public. Whether the panel is stacked or not is not as important at this point as how it is all perceived if the goal is to dispel all the rumors, in my opinion.

God bless.

Bob

Would you be so kind as to answer the four questions above?

Doing so will make it clear to everyone here that there are indeed workers at 3ABN who know how to perform their duties in a prompt, competent, professional, courteous, and Christian manner, and that you aren't merely trying to distract people from the main issues by concentrating on trivia and taking people down rabbit trails.

[Aletheia]

'lookin4truth' date='Dec 22 2006, 12:42 AM' post='164804'
Many have made clear their views, that the sins which have been committed should be kept quiet, and private.

The Apostle Paul did not seem to agree. Yes, when one is confronted with their sin, and is repentant, and willing to make right their wrongs, then discretion is in order.

But, when those in error continued in their behavior, it seems Paul had no problem with making it public. He wrote about them in letters, which would be read before the churches, and ultimately become part of the bible, which we are obligated to use as our example.

(1Ti 5:20) Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear

You left out the part before that, and after it:
1Ti 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
21 I charge [thee] before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.



Here is what he was talking about:
One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him [that which is] wrong;
Then both the men, between whom the controversy [is], shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days;And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, [if] the witness [be] a false witness, [and] hath testified falsely against his brother;
Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you.

And those which remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil among you. Deut 19


Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Matthew Henry on Deut 19
II. A law against perjuries, which enacts two things:-1. That a single witness should never be admitted to give evidence in a criminal cause, so as that sentence should be passed upon his testimony, v. 15. This law we had before, Num. 35:30, and in this book, ch. 17:6. This was enacted in favour to the prisoner, whose life and honour should not lie at the mercy of a particular person that had a pique against him, and for caution to the accuser not to say that which he could not corroborate by the testimony of another. It is a just shame which this law puts upon mankind as false and not to be trusted; every man is by it suspected: and it is the honour of God’s grace that the record he has given concerning his Son is confirmed both in heaven and in earth by three witnesses, 1 Jn. 5:7. Let God be true and every man a liar, Rom. 3:4. 2. That a false witness should incur the same punishment which was to have been inflicted upon the person he accused. If two, or three, or many witnesses, concurred in a false testimony, they were all liable to be prosecuted upon this law. (2.) The person wronged or brought into peril by the false testimony is supposed to be the appellant, v. 17. And yet if the person were put to death upon the evidence, and afterwards it appeared to be false, any other person, or the judges themselves, ex officio—by virtue of their office, might call the false witness to account. (3.) Causes of this kind, having more than ordinary difficulty in them, were to be brought before the supreme court, The priests and judges, who are said to be before the Lord, because, as other judges sat in the gates of their cities, so these at the gate of the sanctuary, ch. 17:12. (4.) There must be great care in the trial, v. 18. A diligent inquisition must be made into the characters of the persons, and all the circumstances of the case, which must be compared, that the truth might be found out, which, where it is thus faithfully and impartially enquired into, Providence, it may be hoped, will particularly advance the discovery of. (5.) If it appeared that a man had knowingly and maliciously borne false witness against his neighbour, though the mischief he designed him thereby was not effected, he must undergo the same penalty which his evidence would have brought his neighbour under, v. 19. Nec lex est justior ulla—Nor could any law be more just. If the crime he accused his neighbour of was to be punished with death, the false witness must be put to death; if with stripes, he must be beaten; if with a pecuniary mulct, he was to be fined the sum. And because to those who considered not the heinousness of the crime, and the necessity of making this provision against it, it might seem hard to punish a man so severely for a few words’ speaking, especially when no mischief did actually follow, it is added: Thy eye shall not pity, v. 21. No man needs to be more merciful than God. The benefit that will accrue to the public from this severity will abundantly recompense it: Those that remain shall hear and fear, v. 20. Such exemplary punishments will be warnings to others not to attempt any such mischief, when they see how he that made the pit and digged it has fallen into the ditch which he made.

We greatly need to fall on the Rock and be broken; then the melting, subduing love of Jesus will be in our hearts. We shall then follow the example of Jesus, the Majesty of heaven, and work in co-operation with the angels, and not be like the Pharisees, who were unsympathetic, proud, and hardhearted. God is not willing that even the lowest and most degraded soul should perish. In what light, then, can you regard the neglect of those who need your help? {RH, April 16, 1895 par. 6}

Many of you are self-willed, proud, hardhearted, and condemnatory, when on the contrary your whole heart should be aroused to devise ways and means for saving souls. You draw apart from your brethren because they do not speak and act in a way that is pleasing to you, when in the sight of God your course is more displeasing than theirs. You do not seek to establish that unity which Christ desires should exist among brethren. What impression do these variances, this emulation and strife, make upon your families and your neighbors, upon those who do not believe the truth? And yet Jesus says, "By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another." {RH, April 16, 1895 par. 7}

How many of you are unsanctified in heart, and while sensitive yourselves to any reproof, you make another an offender for a word! How many of you speak words which cannot produce union, but only heartache and discouragement! How many give cause for anger and are themselves angry without a cause! Jesus, the world's Redeemer, has laid down a rule to prevent such unhappy conditions, but how many of you in our churches and in our institutions have followed the directions of Christ? "If thy brother shall trespass against thee [tell it to every one you meet?], go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone; if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church; but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican." {RH, April 16, 1895 par. 8}

When a person comes to a minister or to men in positions of trust with complaints against a brother or a sister, let the minister ask, "Have you complied with the rules our Saviour has given?" And if he has failed to carry out any particular of this instruction, do not listen to a word of his complaint. In the name and Spirit of Jesus, refuse to take up a report against your brother or your sister in the faith. If members of the church go contrary to these rules, they make themselves subjects for church discipline, and should be under the censure of the church. This matter, so plainly taught in the lessons of Christ, has been treated with strange indifference. The church has either neglected her work entirely in the matter of correcting evil, or has done it with harshness and severity, thus wounding and bruising souls. Measures should be taken to correct this cruel spirit of criticism, of judging the motives of others, as though Christ had revealed to men the hearts of their brethren. The neglect of doing aright, with wisdom and grace, the work that ought to have been done, has left churches and institutions almost inefficient and Christless. {RH, April 16, 1895 par. 9}

Jesus adds to the lesson these words: "Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." After the rules of Christ have been followed out to the letter, the assurance is given that the decisions of the church will be ratified in heaven. This gives a solemn significance to the action of the church. No hasty action from impulse should be taken to cut off names from the church books or to place a member under censure, until the case has been investigated according to the Bible rule in every particular. The word of God shows that it is necessary for church officers to be free from prejudice and selfish motives, and that they should have the sympathy and the love of Jesus. Human minds and hearts, unless wholly sanctified, purified, and refined from partiality and prejudice, are liable to commit grave errors, to misjudge, and to deal unkindly and unjustly with souls that are the purchase of Christ's blood. The decisions of unjust judges will be of no account in the court of heaven. They will not make an innocent man guilty nor change his character in the least before God. As surely as men in responsible positions become lifted up in their own esteem, and act as though they were to lord it over their brethren, they will render decisions which Heaven cannot ratify.
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{RH, April 16, 1895 par. 10}

Chap. 4 - Evilspeaking

Brother has had the cause of God at heart, but he has felt too deeply, and has taken on many burdens which he should not have borne. He has suffered in health in this way. He has sometimes viewed matters in a strong light, and has been too earnest and anxious to have all see them just as he did; and because they were backward in doing so, he has felt nearly crushed. He feels to the depths, and is in danger of urging his views of things too strongly. {2T 50.1}

Sister wants to be a Christian, but she has not cultivated discretion and true courtesy. She is of a very sanguine turn of mind, ardent and self-confident. She shows the rough part of her character, and has not appeared to advantage. She has moved from impulse, acting just as she felt, and sometimes her feelings have been much excited and strong. She has strong likes and dislikes, and has permitted this unfortunate trait in her character to develop itself, greatly to the detriment of her own spiritual advancement and to the injury of the church. She has talked too much and unwisely, just as she felt. This has had a strong influence upon her husband, and has at times led him to move from excitement of feeling, when if he had waited and looked at matters calmly and weighed them properly, it would have been better for himself and for the church. Nothing is gained by moving hurriedly, moving from impulse, or from strong feeling. {2T 50.2}

Sister moves from impulse, and finds fault, and has had too much to say against her brethren and sisters. This will cause confusion in any church. If she could control her own spirit, a great victory would be gained. If she would seek the heavenly adorning, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which God, the Creator of the heavens and the earth, calls of great price, she would then be a real help to the church. If she would cherish the spirit of Christ, and become a peacemaker, her own soul would flourish, and she would be a blessing to the church wherever she might be located. Unless she is converted and an entire change is wrought in her, unless she educates herself to be slow to speak and slow to wrath, and cultivates true Christian courtesy, her influence will prove injurious, and the happiness of others connected with her will suffer. She manifests an independence which is a damage to her and alienates her friends. This independence has caused her much trouble and has wounded her best friends. {2T 51.1}

If those who had means were close in their deal with her husband, and did not favor him more than worldlings in business transactions, she has felt and talked, and aroused feelings of dissatisfaction where none previously existed. This is a selfish world at best. Many of those who profess the truth are not sanctified by it, and may not have a heart to make even a trifling variation in the prices of produce when dealing with a poor brother, sooner than they would with an able worldling. They do not love their neighbors as themselves. It would be more pleasing to God were there less selfishness and more disinterested benevolence. {2T 51.2}

As Sister has seen a selfish spirit manifest in deal, she has committed a greater sin by feeling and talking in regard to the matter as she has. She has erred in expecting too much. The tongue has been truly an unruly member, a world of iniquity, set on fire of hell, untamed and untamable. Sister F has had a spirit of retaliation, manifesting by her deportment that she was offended. This was all wrong. She has cherished bitter feelings, which are foreign to the spirit of Christ. Anger, resentment, and all kinds of unkind tempers are indulged by speaking against those with whom we are displeased, and by reciting the errors and failings and sins of neighbors. The lustful desires are gratified. {2T 51.3}

Sister , if you are grieved because your neighbors or friends are doing wrong to their own hurt, if they are overtaken in fault, follow the Bible rule. "Tell him his fault between thee and him alone." As you go to the one you suppose to be in error, see that you speak in a meek and lowly spirit; for the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. The erring can be restored in no other way than in the spirit of meekness, gentleness, and tender love. Be careful in your manner. Avoid anything in look or gesture, word or tone, that savors of pride or self-sufficiency. Guard yourself against a word or look that would exalt yourself, or place your goodness and righteousness in contrast with their failings. Beware of the most distant approach to disdain, overbearing, or contempt. With care avoid every appearance of anger; and though you use plainness of speech, let there be no reproach, no railing accusation, no token of warmth but that of earnest love. Above all, let there be no shadow of hate or ill will, no bitterness or sourness of expression. Nothing but kindness and gentleness can flow from a heart of love. Yet all these precious fruits need not hinder you from speaking in the most serious, solemn manner, as though angels were directing their eyes upon you, and you were acting in reference to the coming judgment. Bear in mind that the success of reproof depends greatly upon the spirit in which it is given. Do not neglect earnest prayer that you may possess a lowly mind, and that angels of God may go before you to work upon the hearts you are trying to reach, and so soften them by heavenly impressions that your efforts may avail. If any good is accomplished, take no credit to yourself. God alone should be exalted. God alone has done it all. {2T 52.1}

You have excused yourself for speaking evil of your brother or sister or neighbor to others before going to him and taking the steps which God has absolutely commanded. You say: "Why, I did not speak to anyone until I was so burdened that I could not refrain." What burdened you? Was it not a plain neglect of your own duty, of a thus saith the Lord? You were under the guilt of sin because you did not go and tell the offender his fault between you and him alone. If you did not do this, if you disobeyed God, how could you be otherwise than burdened unless your heart was hardened while you were trampling the command of God underfoot, and in your heart hating your brother or neighbor? And what way have you found to unburden yourself? God reproves you for a sin of omission in not telling your brother his fault, and you excuse and comfort yourself by a sin of commission by telling your brother's faults to another person! Is this the right way to purchase ease--by committing sin? {2T 53.1}

All your efforts to save the erring may be unavailing. They may repay you evil for good. They may be enraged rather than convinced. What if they hear to no good purpose, and pursue the evil course they have begun? This will frequently occur. Sometimes the mildest and tenderest reproof will have no good effect. In that case the blessing you wanted another to receive by pursuing a course of righteousness, ceasing to do evil and learning to do well, will return into your own bosom.
If the erring persist in sin, treat them kindly, and leave them with your heavenly Father. You have delivered your soul; their sin no longer rests upon you; you are not now partaker of their sin. But if they perish, their blood is upon their own head. {2T 53.2}

Dear friend, an entire transformation must take place in you, or you will be weighed in the balance and found wanting. The church at -----, especially talking women, have a lesson to learn. "If any man [or woman] among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain." Many will be weighed in the balance and found wanting in this matter of so great importance. Where are the Christians who walk by this rule? who will take God's part against the evilspeaker? who will please God, and set a watch, a continual watch, before the mouth, and keep the door of the lips? Speak evil of no man. Hear evil of no man. If there be no hearers, there will be no speakers of evil. If anyone speaks evil in your presence, check him. Refuse to hear him, though his manner be ever so soft and his accents mild. He may profess attachment, and yet throw out covert hints and stab the character in the dark. {2T 54.1}

Resolutely refuse to hear, though the whisperer complains of being burdened till he speak. Burdened indeed! with a cursed secret which separateth very friends. Go, burdened ones, and free yourselves from your burden in God's appointed way. First go tell your brother his fault between you and him alone. If this fail, next take with you one or two friends, and tell him in their presence. If these steps fail, then tell it to the church. Not an unbeliever is to be made acquainted with the slightest particular of the matter. Telling it to the church is the last step to be taken. Publish it not to the enemies of our faith. They have no right to the knowledge of church matters, lest the weakness and errors of Christ's followers be exposed. {2T 54.2}

Those who are preparing for the coming of Christ should be sober and watch unto prayer, for our adversary, the devil, goeth about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour; whom we are to resist steadfast in the faith. "He that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile: let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it. For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and His ears are open unto their prayers." {2T 54.3]

This post has been edited by Aletheia: Dec 22 2006, 10:24 AM

[calvin]

Joy,

A pastor called me today and suggested that you and Joe just might be Mollie and Hal, and that Danny, who has said that these forums amount to little, must be scared if he is having folks like you come and do battle here.

Hmm, now here's a thought. I wonder what I would find if I did a IP address trace on Joe and Joy? We already did that with Linda (Linda is a member, did an interview here) and Sister and concluded that they are not using the same computer or computers in the same household or even city for that matter.

But the results of the search from Joe and Joy, now that is interesting.

[Aletheia]

Hmm, now here's a thought. I wonder what I would find if I did a IP address trace on Joe and Joy? We already did that with Linda (Linda is a member, did an interview here) and Sister and concluded that they are not using the same computer or computers in the same household or even city for that matter.

But the results of the search from Joe and Joy, now that is interesting.

Hey sorry to bother you but is there a problem with the code for quotes etc? I can't get the bold, the italics or font etc to work by either clicking on then or typing them in manually, and don't know enough about this all to even know if this might be due to my computer. I wasn't having this problem before????

anybody can answer :help:

and thanks

[awesumtenor]

Hey sorry to bother you but is there a problem with the code for quotes etc? I can't get the bold, the italics or font etc to work by either clicking on then or typing them in manually, and don't know enough about this all to even know if this might be due to my computer. I wasn't having this problem before????

anybody can answer :help:

and thanks

You have an unmatched tag somewhere in your post. Any time you quote text, or use any special formatting for each opening tag there has to be a closing tag... so if you use [ quote], there has to be a [/ quote] at the end of the block of quoted text; if you use [ B] to bold something, you have to make sure you have a [/ B] at the end of the block of bolded text, etc.

Look at the link for BB code help at the bottom of the smiley window in the compose screen; that will give you concrete examples.

HTH.

In His service,
Mr. J