Tommy Shelton Vindicated!, I hope. Options

[Skyhook]

I don't know what the laws are in other states, but in california the law requires people who work in helping professions such as Doctors, Nurses, teachers, social workers, etc. to make an official report to the authorities any time they become aware of a case of child abuse, sexual abuse, elder abuse or anything along those lines. They are required to make a report whether they believe it to be true or not. It is a mandatory reporting law with penalties that include loss of professional license for failure to report.

I don't know what the laws are in Illinois, but I wonder if people like Kay Kuzma and Walter Thompson have considered the cost of failing to comply with laws that may require such reporting. Not to mention civil liabilities that could arise.

This post has been edited by Skyhook: Jan 6 2007, 05:11 PM

[husbandoftheyear]

I don't know what the laws are in other states, but in california the law requires people who work in helping professions such as Doctors, Nurses, teachers, social workers, etc. are required to make an official report to the authorities any time they become aware of a case of child abuse, sexual abuse, elder abuse or anything along those lines. They are required to make a report whether they believe it to be true or not. It is a mandatory reporting law with penalties that include loss of professional license for failure to report.

I don't know what the laws are in Illinois, but I wonder if people like Kay Kuzma and Walter Thompson have considered the cost of failing to comply with laws that may require such reporting. Not to mention civil liabilities that could arise.

This is the case in Illinois also...

[PeacefulBe]

I don't know what the laws are in other states, but in california the law requires people who work in helping professions such as Doctors, Nurses, teachers, social workers, etc. are required to make an official report to the authorities any time they become aware of a case of child abuse, sexual abuse, elder abuse or anything along those lines. They are required to make a report whether they believe it to be true or not. It is a mandatory reporting law with penalties that include loss of professional license for failure to report.

I don't know what the laws are in Illinois, but I wonder if people like Kay Kuzma and Walter Thompson have considered the cost of failing to comply with laws that may require such reporting. Not to mention civil liabilities that could arise.

It is mandatory in Illinois as well.

[princessdi]

That lists includes pastors, also.......

I don't know what the laws are in other states, but in california the law requires people who work in helping professions such as Doctors, Nurses, teachers, social workers, etc. are required to make an official report to the authorities any time they become aware of a case of child abuse, sexual abuse, elder abuse or anything along those lines. They are required to make a report whether they believe it to be true or not. It is a mandatory reporting law with penalties that include loss of professional license for failure to report.

I don't know what the laws are in Illinois, but I wonder if people like Kay Kuzma and Walter Thompson have considered the cost of failing to comply with laws that may require such reporting. Not to mention civil liabilities that could arise.

[Skyhook]

I don't believe local authorities or state authorities will be interested in pursuing a case unless ithe offense happened in thier jurisdiction, but that would be the responsibility of law enforcement to determine after the report is made. There would still likely be an obligation to report.

[Ozzie]

That being said, do you know of any place in Scripture where God advocated prison time as punishment for crime? There was punishment, yes, and there was restitution, but was the punishment ever prison time?

Now while they were trying to figure out what to do with the accused, they did use prisons for that in the Pentateuch, but I don't recall prison time as punishment.

Agreed Pickle, but probably God would strike them down. I don't know how it was dealt with back in Biblical times, but I don't 'buy' the mental health argument. Guess I've been around too long, and grown rather cynical. God destroyed Sodom and Gormorrah for its wickedness. Maybe, that God's way. I don't know.

However, in this place in time, all that is really left is prison. There are not many choices for dealing with perpetrators.

Restitution? How can a victim ever really recieve restitution? Their lives are ruined. How can they get back their innocence and trust in the world? No way can they ever be the same as they were before.

Seems to me they were not allowed to remain among the living in Israel for such crimes as this.

Johann
That's about what I'm thinking too.

I don't know what the laws are in other states, but in california the law requires people who work in helping professions such as Doctors, Nurses, teachers, social workers, etc. are required to make an official report to the authorities any time they become aware of a case of child abuse, sexual abuse, elder abuse or anything along those lines. They are required to make a report whether they believe it to be true or not. It is a mandatory reporting law with penalties that include loss of professional license for failure to report.

Yes. It is now the case in each state and territory of Australia too, but that was not the case in the early '70's, which was when the case I referred too actually occured.

There are still a significant portion of perpetrators who TRY to get into the mental health system rather than where they belong, but that doesn't work for them any more.

[Ralph]

---------Orignal Message----------

Subject: RE: Here's my email, Pastor Dunning.
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 16:09:11 -0600
From: Brad Dunning

<clip>
Being in shock, I told him that I had to think about it and left his office. I went home that afternoon and told my mother all that had gone on.

I did not return to school. My Mother, my grandfather and I, went back to the school and confronted Tommy. He denied everything and told my Grandfather that no one would believe us and he would win.

We then went to the West Frankfort Police department and filed a formal complaint.

I am proud of Brad and proud of his relatives. He had trust enough in them to speak up and they believed him and took the appropriate action. When a youth has that kind of support, he can meet up with unfortunate incidents, and yet come out on top. Brad has demonstrated this in his life.

It is a delicate task to caution a child and yet not make him/her suspicious of everyone.

[Johann]

I am proud of Brad and proud of his relatives. He had trust enough in them to speak up and they believed him and took the appropriate action. When a youth has that kind of support, he can meet up with unfortunate incidents, and yet come out on top. Brad has demonstrated this in his life.

It is a delicate task to caution a child and yet not make him/her suspicious of everyone.

I appreciate you stating this, Ralph. You have worked in this area, and know what you are talking about.

In my ministry I have also been closely involved in other cases like this. Therefore I know from dealing with victims what life-long effects it has, not only on children, while they are children, but it leaves them with an ulcer that never is fully cured, no matter what level of maturity they reach later in life.

This is the reason why the societies we live in regard this as one of the worst crimes committed. A child molestor gets no sympathy from other inmates in prison. He often has to be protected by prison authorities or the other imates will make life unbearable for him while he is there.

Could this be why in Bible times the punishment was death? Perhaps the most merciful way?

[Seraphim7]

Agreed Pickle, but probably God would strike them down. I don't know how it was dealt with back in Biblical times, but I don't 'buy' the mental health argument. Guess I've been around too long, and grown rather cynical. God destroyed Sodom and Gormorrah for its wickedness. Maybe, that God's way. I don't know.

However, in this place in time, all that is really left is prison. There are not many choices for dealing with perpetrators.

Restitution? How can a victim ever really recieve restitution? Their lives are ruined. How can they get back their innocence and trust in the world? No way can they ever be the same as they were before.
Johann
That's about what I'm thinking too.
Yes. It is now the case in each state and territory of Australia too, but that was not the case in the early '70's, which was when the case I referred too actually occured.

There are still a significant portion of perpetrators who TRY to get into the mental health system rather than where they belong, but that doesn't work for them any more.

As a young person, I was a victim of emotional and sexual abuse so please know that my comments are not meant in any way to belittle this situation. My hope is to encourage.

Also, as a parent with children who were victims of a volent crime, though not sexual in nature, we can attest to the fact that God can provide us with restitution and restoration, when we ourselves can not see a glimmer of hope. Our young people have not only survived but are living healthy and productive, though imperfect, lives despite the ordeal they experienced.

We truly need to be very aware that it is satans desire that victims of any crime feel him/or herself to be so demoralized that they can never be emotionally or spiritually whole again. It is a dangerous thing and we play into his hands when we are unable to see, for whatever reason, what God has done, and will do for us as His children.

Though we can never get back what was taken from us physically we can, through the love and peace of God, be whole again spiritually and emotionally. Restitution may not be found, in this life, but restoration comes when forgiveness is given, not only to the perpetrators but to ourselves as well. Yes, it is hard to fathom forgiving those who have been used by satan, in an attempt to destroy us, but to be whole as Christ would have us forgiveness is key. And, if it were not possible Christ could not have said, while on the cross, Father forgiven them, for they know not what they do.

It is my prayer that we can all teach our children that only through Christ Jesus will any of us, man, woman, boy or girl, ever receive true "restitution" and restoration needed.

Be Blessed

This post has been edited by seraph|m: Jan 6 2007, 05:27 PM

[Green Cochoa]

We don't live in a theocracy anymore. That's why the government can enforce only the second table, not the first table, of the 10 Commandments.

That being said, do you know of any place in Scripture where God advocated prison time as punishment for crime? There was punishment, yes, and there was restitution, but was the punishment ever prison time?

Now while they were trying to figure out what to do with the accused, they did use prisons for that in the Pentateuch, but I don't recall prison time as punishment.

Yes, there was prison time. However, not for the crimes beings discussed here. There was only the death penalty for most sexual crimes, with an exception taken to the case of a man forcing himself upon an unmarried virgin--in that case, he was required to pay her dowry and to marry her.

The crime which required prison time was that of accidental murder. We would call it "involuntary manslaughter" in today's language. For this crime, the one responsible for the death had to flee to a "city of refuge" and could not leave, on pain of death, until the death of the high priest. Should they leave that city before the high priest's death, the relatives of the one killed would have the right to exact vengeance.

Numbers
35:25 And the congregation shall deliver the slayer out of the hand of the revenger of blood, and the congregation shall restore him to the city of his refuge, whither he was fled: and he shall abide in it unto the death of the high priest, which was anointed with the holy oil.
35:26 But if the slayer shall at any time come without the border of the city of his refuge, whither he was fled;
35:27 And the revenger of blood find him without the borders of the city of his refuge, and the revenger of blood kill the slayer; he shall not be guilty of blood:
35:28 Because he should have remained in the city of his refuge until the death of the high priest: but after the death of the high priest the slayer shall return into the land of his possession.

[Fran]

Seriphim;

The victim can make it through. There are many victims alive and well today, but life is not the same as you have stated.

What about the perpetrator?

There are so many things that happen to children, and that influence them to do many things.

It does not matter what they are taught, if it is wrong, it is wrong. And through this problem of exposure at such an early age, the child thinks this action is normal.

I spent years telling my children to bathe, wash your hair, brush your teeth. They are grown and on their own, and to my amazement, they now choose to do those things all by themselves!

The Shelton’s never have hesitated to tell about how they sang at many Bars and Clubs. This is the life they knew as children. They went everywhere Mom and Dad went. What Mom and Dad did, they did.

Where did Tommy learn to be a child molester and Homosexual? Was he just born that way? Or was he helped along the way? Could he have developed these feelings over his Dad. He truly loved his mother, I believe that after reading the tribute to his mom. The link was provided by My Little Friend at Maritine SDA Online.

For My little Friends post:
http://www.maritime-sda-online.org/forums/...e=0&fpart=5

This is a direct link to the Tribute to Goldie Shelton-Seddon

http://www.churchofgodcv.org/wmf-info/1999/july-31-1999.aspx

We don’t hear as much about Dad. I have heard it RUMORED that he “did more than his share of getting around.” Were the boys taking lessons? Maybe it was their preacher.

Mom made sure the children went to church. I believe she is the reason they are in Ministries. Was the home actually divided as to give the children a split vision of humanity?

It is clear that Tommy and Danny have no remorse what-so-ever. I believe that they rationalized there sexuality with religion, If God gave them these sexual tendencies, it must be OK! I believe they have accepted their life style as God given.

I know of a man that was taken to church by Mom and Dad, also. Mom and Dad had 13 children, but only 9 lived. This man was child # 7. He had a sister 17 yrs old when he was born, In fact she had one child and was pregnant with her second when he was born. Therefore, he had 2 nieces. One a year older than him and one a few month younger. He was the Uncle of both girls.

He also had 2 older brothers,.and 2 younger brothers. All of the older children had to go to the fields to work, including Mom. She was required to work and cook. The oldest Daughter started watching the smaller kids so all the older kids could go to the fields. By time everyone returned, it was supper time and the older boys and girls had to watch the younger ones. The two older brothers were already sexually active and continued to be active sexually.. This man and his nieces turned 6-7. These boys took the 2 girls to the shed and had sex with them on an almost daily basis in front of this man and his younger brother, He would cry because he could not join in. It didn’t take long for then to give him a try.

After several years it was found out by Mom. She got the belt out and was whipping each one when Dad arrived. He found out why she was spanking them and threw a fit that she would spank them for what was only “Natural”. He took the belt and beat her. This lesson taught them that anything goes for the male as far as sex goes.

By 10 he had branched out and then found his puppy love finally at the age of 12. She was 8 or 9. He continued to have sex with anyone willing, but he went steady and finally became engaged to his puppy love when he was 19. I guess they were Common Law Husband & Wife since they were sleeping together for 7 years. He joined the military and dumped his fiancé because he found out she was having sex with someone else.

He married the first attractive gal he met to show his old fiancé. The new wife had never even met his family and was head over hills in love with him. He was unfaithful every chance he got. The wife was a Christian and believed that she needed to trust in God to take care of it. Does that sound familiar?

After 4 decades she finds that he has been having an ongoing affair with his old fiancé during all those years. But not just her, but her older sister too! Her sister was older and taught this man many new tricks back in the day.

This man was an abuser to the max. He not only beat his wife, but over the years, beat his own children. He became a thief in the military, and retired to embezzler. Sound familiar?

Finally, he decided to get rid of his wife and slowly tried to kill her. She still trusted this man, but began to add things up and got proof that he was truly trying to kill her. And she shared this with me. Then one day, He just “lost it” and beat his wife. This time she called the police.

Now, their daughter says she was molested as a child. Sound familiar? The daughter has been receiving counseling for several years now. She never told her Mom because she didn’t want to hurt her mom. Sound familiar?

This man was also a “Christian”, but justified all of his actions. He, to this day, tells his ex-wife his behavior was/is “normal”. He tells his ex-wife he has done nothing wrong. Sound familiar?

Since I knew both of them, I had no idea all these things happened to him in his childhood until his ex-wife told me. She hired a private investigator and got all of this information back to deal with. It seems someone filed a child abuse case way back when, and nothing happened! Sound familiar?

This man and his wife remind me a lot of Danny and Linda. Danny has not missed his share of messing around, but I truly believe Linda was blind to it. It is very easy for us to look at things after the fact and say, “How is this possible?” I have seen it too many times.

Danny feels he is entitled to do as he pleases. The same with Tommy. People with entitlement issues are usually abusers. And why should Danny not think this? Just look and see how God has blessed them. Both love their work! Both love their sexual deviations.

Logical thinking would say, “If this was bad and not right, God would takes these deviated thoughts away from me!”. And for all intents and purposes, God has NOT taken these desires away, so they have continued to act on them and will continue to do so until God acts and lets them understand that this can not continue.

In Danny’s mind he thinks what he has/is doing is very normal. Everyone knows it is not acceptable for the wife to be unfaithful, but God allows men to because they are the ones made in God’s image. In his emails he repeats that he has done nothing wrong or illegal. I believe he actually believes this.

I believe Linda’s faithfulness to God was responsible for her having to leave that pit of sin. She, like my friend, had a lot of catching up to do. Both learned a vast amount of information over a very short period of time. Praise God both are free now. My friend says she will never marry again! She says life is too short now to make the same mistake twice!

Now what? We will never convince someone who sees the sky as GREEN that the sky is actually BLUE

[Observer]

I don't know what the laws are in other states, but in california the law requires people who work in helping professions such as Doctors, Nurses, teachers, social workers, etc. are required to make an official report to the authorities any time they become aware of a case of child abuse, sexual abuse, elder abuse or anything along those lines. They are required to make a report whether they believe it to be true or not. It is a mandatory reporting law with penalties that include loss of professional license for failure to report.

I don't know what the laws are in Illinois, but I wonder if people like Kay Kuzma and Walter Thompson have considered the cost of failing to comply with laws that may require such reporting. Not to mention civil liabilities that could arise.

Several people have commented on this issue. So, I will respond to them, and not just this one person:

1) There is normally (I could provide an exception, which is rare ) no Federal law which governs in this situation. Rather individual (USA) State law governs. While there is a common thread, individual State law differs from place to place.

The exception is in situations where the person is not under the jurisdiction of any local law, but is only under Federal law. In such cases there is Federal law that governs.

2) Typically the governing law holds professionals responsible to report, but does not require a non-professional to report. I.e. It will typically require a licensed counselor to report, but not the next-door neighbor.

3) Clergy will typically fall into an exception. The reason for that is the First Amendment to the Constitution. Because of that Amendment, knowledge of abuse that the clergy person obtained in relationship to an attempt by a person to get right with God is not required to be reported. In fact, if it is reported, a good defense attorney will typically be able to prevent that information from being used in any way. The result of that may be that the charges will have to be dropped!

The Constitutional issue raised here is of such a magnitude that I am aware if one State in which the law does not grant the clergy exemption that I have mentioned. But, in that State prosecutors do not attempt to force clergy to testify under the conditions that I mention. They do that as they do not want a Federal court to throw out their case.

It should be noted that the above exemption is not a total exemption. The Constitution does NOT allow a clergy person to refuse to report and testify when the information was obtained in a non-sacramental manner. E.g. A clergy person may be required to report/testify in a case where a Sunday School teacher tells the clergy person that Sally told her that her Father had assaulted her.

4) Even in cases where a professional is required to report, there are clear bounds on that requirement. To illustrate, a licensed psychologist may be required to report that her client, Sam, informed her that he had been sexually active with 10 year-old Sally. But, that psychologist may not be required to report that Ralph told her that Robert had told him, that John thought that Sam had been sexually active with Sally.

To be specific, I do not believe that people such as Kay Kuzma have any knowledge that they are required to report.

[Lee]

I am speaking in a general sense here. Would it be possible to discuss this privately between all of you? Does all this have to be aired for all the world to see?

Think of who may be reading what you are posting. No doubt all this will bring a terrible hurt to Danny's grandchildren, his wife Brandi and other relatives. They must feel badly that all this must be drug out into the whole world to see concerning Danny and Tommy.

I'm not saying to not discuss it at all--but can't you all just email each other privately. This should not be here in public. It is hurting many innocent people. I think especially of the letter just published by Bob Pickle about Tommy. That should have never been published here because of the children/grandchildren. That letter was too graphic to be posted on a Christian public forum. I'm NOT saying that it should not be discussed at all or that something shouldn't be done--I'm just saying it should not be put out for everyone to read.

Why can't you form an email group and discuss all this privately. Please, for the sake of the children who are reading on this forum.

[PeacefulBe]

I am speaking in a general sense here. Would it be possible to discuss this privately between all of you? Does all this have to be aired for all the world to see?

Think of who may be reading what you are posting. No doubt all this will bring a terrible hurt to Danny's grandchildren, his wife Brandi and other relatives. They must feel badly that all this must be drug out into the whole world to see concerning Danny and Tommy.

I'm not saying to not discuss it at all--but can't you all just email each other privately. This should not be here in public. It is hurting many innocent people. I think especially of the letter just published by Bob Pickle about Tommy. That should have never been published here because of the children/grandchildren. That letter was too graphic to be posted on a Christian public forum. I'm NOT saying that it should not be discussed at all or that something shouldn't be done--I'm just saying it should not be put out for everyone to read.

Why can't you form an email group and discuss all this privately. Please, for the sake of the children who are reading on this forum.

The clear answer to your question, Lee, is that with knowledge comes the power to make informed decisions. If information that is important for the public at large to be aware of is kept within private discussions other parents, who are unaware of the dangers, cannot make the informed decisions that will protect their children.

Any child who is reading this forum most likely has the maturity, IMO, to understand the importance of the posted information.

What makes you feel that this discussion will hurt Danny's grandchildren? Keeping this kind of behavior private is one of the key ways this type of abuse flourishes.

[PrincessDrRe]

The clear answer to your question, Lee, is that with knowledge comes the power to make informed decisions. If information that is important for the public at large to be aware of is kept within private discussions other parents, who are unaware of the dangers, cannot make the informed decisions that will protect their children.

Any child who is reading this forum most likely has the maturity, IMO, to understand the importance of the posted information.

What makes you feel that this discussion will hurt Danny's grandchildren? Keeping this kind of behavior private is one of the key ways this type of abuse flourishes.

ITA! Keeping it "private" and "quiet as kept" is what makes more victims.

I wonder if those that are saying this should be on the hush-hush would want it all on the hush-hush if it was their child/grandchild/niece-nephew that was victimized..... Oh. Of course not. This would be the same person that would be hot and mad as e'rything that NOBODY TOLD THEM ABOUT THE MAN MOLESTING IN THE PAST!

Sorry...but this is a sore spot for me. The SDA Church (and other churches in general) tend to want to cover up sex based crimes; but we'll go visit someone and try to evangalize in jail?