Another newbie critical of BSDA, Handling of the 3ABN threads Options

[wwjd]

I'm thankful for this forum, that allows grieving and offended people to express themselves. Some have seen and suffered those things first hand. Here they have the opportunity to express the other side, the one that has been shut out by the 3ABN leaders.

Be blessed, my brother. I hope you realize that by saying these things I'm in no way attacking you. You have my love and respect.

Your sister from far away!
[/quote]
Grace, I must say, you have one of the only kind and christian spirits on this forum. I believe you do want what is best. Therefore, I will share what "I know" ( in reality it is what I heard like most everyone on this forum says) There is a big difference between what one knows, what one has heard, and what one is led to believe through incriminating reports without hearing the other side of the story. We agree that there are 2 sides. I knew someone personally that worked at the 3 abn facility for many years. I considered this person, honest to a fault with a very christian spirit. As that person was around the family a lot they saw and heard a lot. I was told that, at that time, the general consensus with the people there was that Danny Shelton loved his wife to a fault. To a fault, meaning, he gave her, her way, most of the time even when he really shouldn't have. This person also said that he constantlybuilt her up and openly complimented her over and over simply because he cared so much. This person is no longer there but told me this: That when Linda Shelton left 3ABN it was like a huge load was lifted off of the employees since worker after worker said that she had acted "the queen bee" by not wanting the workers to make a decent wage, by showing them no respect in many ways, and countless other things that I promised my source, I would not repeat. I was also told that they had personally seen Danny S crushed almost to the point of breaking at the time of their seperation. My friend said that Linda S. could not possibly be saying that she was abused and kicked out, when my friend saw with their own eyes, Mr. Shelton helping her to move all of her things, trip after trip to a place about 45 miles from the 3abn facility. And after she was moved He went over to her residence and built a deck for her and while doing so, they even had several meals together. This ex employee said that everyone that heard about it was shocked and thought it ridiculous that he would do such a thing when he felt he had been betrayed. Now my own thoughts are that if I had a mate who abused and mistreated me, I wouldn't let them anywhere near me once I got out of there much less work on my home or take me to eat a meal. Also they said it was more than a year and 1/2 approx before he remarried to a woman that had lived in another state for many many years but after hearing of and watching 3abn relocated to be a part of spreading the gospel. I could go on since my friend and I have talked often by phone, emails, ect but I won't. Other than to ask, is all of this true? I believe so because I know the Godly nature of my friend who was actually there and observed with their own eyes, not to mention that being an employee, they heard these thoughts from many of the others there. But, the end result is My story has no more validity or proof than any of the stories on this site. Why? Again because it is what I heard. From a great source? I believe so but many of you will not want to believe because your minds are already made up.
One more thing I will say to all these comments I read about exposing someone who is a child molester, and calling sin by it's right name and how your church should handle this and quoting the scriptures. There is only one thing wrong here...the person you are accusing, from what I can see, has never been even tried, much less convicted. I would think any reasonable person on this forum that proffeses christianity of anykind would see the wrong in exposing the "sin" when there is no proof of the sin. Proof, trial & conviction has to have been done before any "exposing" and calling sin by its right name, can be done. Remember "innocent" until PROVEN guilty.
Grace, I hope you take this in the spirit that it has been given. Because you seemed to truly want to weigh the issues, and just tell you some of the things that " I heard" since the others have told you so much of the same
Thanks for hearing me out.

This post has been edited by wwjd: Jan 15 2007, 12:24 AM

[awesumtenor]

Therefore, I will share what "I know" ( in reality it is what I heard like most everyone on this forum says)

How much of this sob story did you confirm as fact before passing it on to others? How did you verify it? If you didn't, how are you convinced it is true? And by accepting it as true are you not equally guilty as those you call yourself castigating here...if not moreso?

BTW, the bulk of the things stated here are from first hand witnesses... not folk like you who have just "heard" things from someone else.

Neither you, nor anyone else, has refuted any of the first hand accounts here... and juxtaposed against those accounts is you recounting what you have heard... and yet you think we should give as much, if not more, weight to what you say second or third hand... versus what others have actually witnessed and experienced first hand...

While some of us were born at night... it wasn't last night... you're gonna have to do better than this.

In His service,
Mr. J

[wwjd]

Therefore, by keeping silent, we are not doing What Jesus Would Do and What Did Jesus Do(?)!
[/quote]
Chez your point is well taken except everyone is leaving the most important fact out. There has to be absolute proof of alleged crimes then a fair trial and then a conviction before we can call sin by its right name. None of that has been accomplished here.



These are pretty strong words of counsel about how to interact with our fellow Christians who have shown by their fruits that they have detached themselves from Christ. While we are to love them as Jesus does, to pray that they will repent and reconnect with Jesus, we should not "associate" with them. It seems that their influence is considered dangerous.
[/quote]
But do you not also feel the danger of convicting someone without absolute proof or a fair trial. On this site, the accused has already been arrested, tried and convicted and now without any of those actions taken are taking up the chant of "expose and crucify him" Jesus never condemmed anyone on letters emails or heresay. We are all innocent until proven guilty and even then, if proven guilty, how can we on this forum, possibly know if the accused person has repented? We can't, which is why we can't judge, that is very dangerous

"cult?" "compound" "dysfunctunal culture?"

It really is too bad it isn't a hundred years ago. Then you could have a "string up" party and lynch Danny and the Board in the public square. Now wouldn't that be fun?

shame on you..thank God we have evolved into a "more civilized" culture where one is supposed to be offered a fair trial with dead to right proof before anyone can be convicted. So sorry you feel that way.

[wwjd]

[ quote name='Kaiser Schlabotnick' date='Jan 12 2007, 11:46 PM' post='169527']
Jesus said...

If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you (alone, in private).

How is that the folks around here think the above counsel does not apply to them?

Is it to the glory of God that this dirty laundry is being aired out in public for the whole world to see?

Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you.

If your railing accusations are true, how many of you have really prayed for Danny?

KS
[/quote]
ks
How true are your words. All I see on here is several of the accused should be exposed for safety reasons and for the safety of your church. But as I have said over and over tonight there has to be a "proven" beyond a shadow of a doubt sin before one can ever get to what or should be exposed. this has not happened. I say again THIS HAS NOT HAPPENED. I can say this with certainty. if I were on trial for anything, I would hate to see some of these people on the jury. By their standards I would be exposed, stoned and happily lynched in the public square on accusations alone. Frightening isn't it.

[Chez]

Therefore, by keeping silent, we are not doing What Jesus Would Do and What Did Jesus Do(?)!

Chez your point is well taken except everyone is leaving the most important fact out. There has to be absolute proof of alleged crimes then a fair trial and then a conviction before we can call sin by its right name. None of that has been accomplished here.
These are pretty strong words of counsel about how to interact with our fellow Christians who have shown by their fruits that they have detached themselves from Christ. While we are to love them as Jesus does, to pray that they will repent and reconnect with Jesus, we should not "associate" with them. It seems that their influence is considered dangerous.

But do you not also feel the danger of convicting someone without absolute proof or a fair trial. On this site, the accused has already been arrested, tried and convicted and now without any of those actions taken are taking up the chant of "expose and crucify him" Jesus never condemmed anyone on letters emails or heresay. We are all innocent until proven guilty and even then, if proven guilty, how can we on this forum, possibly know if the accused person has repented? We can't, which is why we can't judge, that is very dangerous
shame on you..thank God we have evolved into a "more civilized" culture where one is supposed to be offered a fair trial with dead to right proof before anyone can be convicted. So sorry you feel that way.

WWJD, how much proof do you need? Victims have stated that Tommy sexually abused them and the Danny and his lawyer have tried to shut them up. How many do you need? Do you need 100s of victims? These young men have been scarred for life and you want more proof? If I remember correctly, Tommy has not denied some molestation. He has stated that he himself was sexually abused. Thus, alluding to a type of justification for his actions.

I just don't buy the Danny story. I empathized with him at the very beginning until the quickie divorce, until I heard him ranting and raving on 3ABN about this marital ("poor me") situation, until he married Brandi, until I heard him indirectly and through inuendos put down Linda, until.... I know of persons who do not profess to be Christians who have not gone through such lengths to let people know how bad their "ex" was/is. Some of these people can be deemed as justified in their criticism; however, some have never stooped to that level, that is, not publically. Danny is no saint.

[wwjd]

[

I don't accept your assumptions, thus I can't accept your conclusions.
And I suspect that the same is true for many others on this board.
[/quote]


you don't accept assumptions? That is exactly what you are doing when you make all the accusations you just made toward mr. Shelton. You said he is running 3abn as a business you said he is in it for his own profit and that he is destructive. Where is your evidence? I can tell you where. In your mind. You have "assumed" everything you have read on here to be true. Shame on you. Many of us don't just automatically accept your assumptions, thus ,cannot accept your conclusions.

This post has been edited by wwjd: Jan 15 2007, 01:23 AM

[wwjd]

I just don't buy the Danny story. I empathized with him at the very beginning until the quickie divorce, until I heard him ranting and raving on 3ABN about this marital ("poor me") situation, until he married Brandi, until I heard him indirectly and through inuendos put down Linda, until.... I know of persons who do not profess to be Christians who have not gone through such lengths to let people know how bad their "ex" was/is. Some of these people can be deemed as justified in their criticism; however, some have never stooped to that level, that is, not publically. Danny is no saint.

I watch a lot of their programming. I have never ever heard Danny S trash Linda on the air as some has said here. Also because of a friend I have that worked there at the time of the divorce, I have yet to understand this "quickie" thing. The employees there have said there were months of talking, and trying to work through problems until it was clear there was going to be no resolution. Then, the divorce. Also I traveled to the GC session in st. louis several years ago at the time this was happening and was told by someone in the GC that Linda was going to try to hand out a book that even though had fictitious names, was described extremely well enough that you knew she was talking about Danny S and the 3ABN ministry. The GC person said he had seen a little of it, whether online, in person, what, I don't know but said it was terrible trash and the GC would not allow it to be handed out in the confines of the stadium where they were holding the session. Then I was told that she had come onto this site as someone else to start if not all, a good portion of the accusations that have been made here.It was still much later before Danny S ever even made any kind of reference that things had not ended on a good note. Sounds like self defense to me. As far as the other accusations, I truly believe if someone was guilty of the awful things that have been said here and guilty of them for years and years with tons and tons of teenagers, they would have been convicted and be in jail by now. As is proven on this site, people love to gossip and throw dirt and something like that would have broke wide open and with evidence to prove it. Maybe someone should look into the background of some of the letter writers and accusers and they may find out some interesting things.

[wwjd]

While some of us were born at night... it wasn't last night... you're gonna have to do better than this.

In His service,
Mr. J
[/quote]
You made my point for me. Did I not say several times that I am repeating what I was told from an employee there just like you people are repeating what you were told from from former employees. My point exactly, is that everyone can play that game. And I did say I heard it from an employee that was an eyewitness to several of the things mentioned. If you are going to believe the eye witness account of other employees to the detriment of that ministry then why not believe eye witness accounts that would benefit that ministry. I wasn't born last night either even though a toddler could see exactly how biased against them you are and how closed minded to anyone that gives 3abn and its leaders, the benefit of the doubt.
My eyewitness is just as good as your eyewitness. I think I've made my point

[Panama_Pete]

I watch a lot of their programming. I have never ever heard Danny S trash Linda on the air as some has said here. Also because of a friend I have that worked there at the time of the divorce, I have yet to understand this "quickie" thing. The employees there have said there were months of talking, and trying to work through problems until it was clear there was going to be no resolution. Then, the divorce. Also I traveled to the GC session in st. louis several years ago at the time this was happening and was told by someone in the GC that Linda was going to try to hand out a book that even though had fictitious names, was described extremely well enough that you knew she was talking about Danny S and the 3ABN ministry. The GC person said he had seen a little of it, whether online, in person, what, I don't know but said it was terrible trash and the GC would not allow it to be handed out in the confines of the stadium where they were holding the session. Then I was told that she had come onto this site as someone else to start if not all, a good portion of the accusations that have been made here.It was still much later before Danny S ever even made any kind of reference that things had not ended on a good note. Sounds like self defense to me. As far as the other accusations, I truly believe if someone was guilty of the awful things that have been said here and guilty of them for years and years with tons and tons of teenagers, they would have been convicted and be in jail by now. As is proven on this site, people love to gossip and throw dirt and something like that would have broke wide open and with evidence to prove it. Maybe someone should look into the background of some of the letter writers and accusers and they may find out some interesting things.

In another thread you stated:

again, twice now I have seen "I heard" and "it appears" That Tommy Shelton will make an appearance in a couple of weeks. Where are you people getting this stuff? "I heard" and "it appears" and "someone said" does not the truth make. What would Jesus do?

For someone who decries the use of "I heard," you surely seem to be using a lot of this type of language, yourself. Of course, maybe this is just more of the Danny Shelton "do as I say, not as I do" mentality which prevails with 3ABN management.

As for your other statement:

As far as the other accusations, I truly believe if someone was guilty of the awful things that have been said here and guilty of them for years and years with tons and tons of teenagers, they would have been convicted and be in jail by now.

The State of Illinois has recently extended the statute of limitations for many child abuse situations to age 38. So, the State of Illinois doesn't seem to care what you "truly believe" and has gone the opposite direction in their lawmaking.

Also I traveled to the GC session in st. louis several years ago at the time this was happening

The General Conference Session in Saint Louis was held June 29 through July 8, 2005. That's not "several years ago." If you can't remember when you were there, how accurate could the rest of your recollections be?

[Panama_Pete]

Also I traveled to the GC session in st. louis several years ago at the time this was happening and was told by someone in the GC that Linda was going to try to hand out a book that even though had fictitious names, was described extremely well enough that you knew she was talking about Danny S and the 3ABN ministry. The GC person said he had seen a little of it, whether online, in person, what, I don't know but said it was terrible trash and the GC would not allow it to be handed out in the confines of the stadium where they were holding the session.

Dear WWJD,

I mentioned the possibility of Linda writing a fictional book in my post of July 9, 2006. This is one year and one the day after the General Conference ended. The General Conference ended on July 8, 2005. Why are you off on your dates, WWJD?

Did you, by any chance, take the fictional book idea I posted at this forum in July, 2006 and turn it into an eyewitness account to a General Conference session that occurred, as you say, "several years ago"?

Just wondering how the "Danny Shelton Time Machine" actually works.


See Televangelist Posts 13, 14, 15, and 16 from July 9, 2006

http://www.blacksda.com/forums/index.php?s...=9823&st=15

Here is my original post number 16 from "The Televangelist" thread.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Watchbird, look again. I've got a diamond buried in that gravel.

http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,,1596971,00.html

"Prevented by legal agreement [gag order] from writing about her famous husband, Ivana Trump commissions a ghost-writer to write a novel about the break-up of her marriage ."

I hope to see SOP used again in the future by someone we know..

-----------------------------------------------------------

And Watchbird replies:

-----------------------------------------------------------

oops. And so you do. Thanks. I sure missed that one!



This post has been edited by Panama_Pete: Jan 15 2007, 07:00 AM

[Observer]

Re: "There is only one thing wrong here...the person you are accusing, from what I can see, has never been even tried, much less convicted. I would think any reasonable person on this forum that proffeses christianity of anykind would see the wrong in exposing the "sin" when there is no proof of the sin. Proof, trial & conviction has to have been done before any "exposing" and calling sin by its right name, can be done. Remember "innocent" until PROVEN guilty."

The phrase "innocent until proven guilty" applies to criminal law. The aspects of that application do not directly transfer over to what society expects us to do. Society in the USA expects children to be protected. As accused child molester, even if not convicted, does not have a legal right to be placed in contact with children. When that person is kept from contacting children, thee is no loss of a legal right.

Further society expects that parents will be informed, so that parents, who have the right to govern their children can make responsible choices. This means that parents should be informed that Mr. X has been accused of child molestation, so that parents can decide on whether or not Mr. X has contact with heir children.

I live in an area where a few years ago, under false pretenses, a local clergy person baptized children without the knowledge of the parents. When that became known, it was stopped. Parents govern their children. They need information.

Your statements regarding innocent until guilty, and no criminal conviction, are simply without foundation. If you want to know the denominational (SDA) position on this, search it out. You might write to the Upper Columbia Conference, or to the Walla Walla College Church and ask for a copy of their policy. The policy clearly provides for the protection of children without a criminal conviction. That is what society expects.





Re: "Also I traveled to the GC session in st. louis several years ago at the time this was happening and was told by someone in the GC that Linda was going to try to hand out a book that even though had fictitious names, was described extremely well enough that you knew she was talking about Danny S and the 3ABN ministry. The GC person said he had seen a little of it, whether online, in person, what, I don't know but said it was terrible trash and the GC would not allow it to be handed out in the confines of the stadium where they were holding the session."

Well you are clearly repeating multi-handed gossip. You heard from someone who heard form someone, who heard from someone. . ..

Your reference, of course, is to THE TELEVANGELIST. It may be that someone came to a General Conference (although your dates appear to be off to me), or to some other denominational meeting, with the intent to distribute THE TELEVANGELIST. I do not know.

But, I can definitively tell you that Linda Shelton did not intend to distribute that literary work. The implication that she did is clearly false.

Re: "Then I was told that she had come onto this site as someone else to start if not all, a good portion of the accusations that have been made here."

The above is also false.

You simply do not know what you are talking about.

[Pickle]

Seventh-day Adventists have never believed that one has to be tried and convicted in a civil court before calling sin by its right name. Proof? For starters, read the church manual's instructions regarding church discipline.

"Willful and habitual falsehood" is one of the grounds for church discipline. Ever heard of a civil court trying an individual for that?

[Aletheia]

Seventh-day Adventists have never believed that one has to be tried and convicted in a civil court before calling sin by its right name. Proof? For starters, read the church manual's instructions regarding church discipline.

"Willful and habitual falsehood" is one of the grounds for church discipline. Ever heard of a civil court trying an individual for that?

Lies are prosecuted, yes. perjury, false testimony, filing a false staement, interfering with a criminal investigation, slander...

What is not being made clear here is the division of Church and State, and criminal acts which are prosecuted by the state.


Jesus clearly defined the difference between the two when he said "Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasars and unto God what is God's"

Civil Laws in every Nation the world over have throughout history and even today reflected the law of God given in the second table of Stone.

The Church does not have the right to supercede the civil authorities and try members for Murder, rape, or robbery etc, or punish them as criminals, that is the duty of the govening powers and authorities.

The Church in it's discipline process, offers councelling, Censure, and or disfellowship, but only after diligent search inguiry and a consensus of it's members, the church is not to have lower standards in doing so then a civil court or tribunal would.


Something else we might do well to consider, is it doesn't matter if the tale being told is true or false. God said don't do it, he commanded how sin and error where to be taken care of and did NOT say take it upon yourselves to decide when to disregard what I have commanded. He is the Lord.

...Thou shalt not curse the deaf, nor put a stumblingblock before the blind,
but shalt fear thy God:
I am the LORD.

Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment:
thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty:
but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.

Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people:
neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour:
I am the LORD.

Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart:
thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour,
and not suffer sin upon him.

Thou shalt not avenge,
nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people,
but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself:
I am the LORD...
Lev 19

The end does NOT justify the means, EVER.

This post has been edited by Aletheia: Jan 15 2007, 09:27 AM

[awesumtenor]

Jesus said...

If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you (alone, in private).

How is that the folks around here think the above counsel does not apply to them?

Apparently in your zeal to point out the flaw in others' pointing out the flaws in Danny/3ABN, you have become that which you decry. You proclaim how offended you are by all that has been said... yet you do so publicly and not "just between the two of you (alone, in private).

For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Is it to the glory of God that this dirty laundry is being aired out in public for the whole world to see?

If you feel it doesn't glorify God to "air dirty laundry", why are you doing it? Again judged by the standard by which you choose to judge this forum you are equally guilty of that which you decry... which means the remainder of that passage from Matt 7 applies squarely to you:

Mat 7:3-5 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? (4) Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? (5) Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you.

If your railing accusations are true, how many of you have really prayed for Danny?

Many members of this forum have prayed for Danny and 3ABN... and many continue to do so... and he has been told this by members of this forum, face to face. Now ask yourself the same question...if your 'railing accusations' about this forum are true how many have you "really prayed for"? If I were a betting man I would have to take the under on that...

In His service,
Mr. J

This post has been edited by awesumtenor: Jan 15 2007, 10:03 AM

[awesumtenor]

You made my point for me. Did I not say several times that I am repeating what I was told from an employee there just like you people are repeating what you were told from from former employees.

Your point is wrong... This forum is not "repeating" what has been told from former employees; Those former employees/3ABN board members/etc who have spoken out in this forum are speaking first hand of what they have seen and experienced and are giving testimony of conversations they personally had with the principals (whether by phone, by email or face to face) in this situation. That is far different from the foolishness you are trying to put forth.

My point exactly, is that everyone can play that game.

And my point is the only one playing that game is you and those likeminded as you.

If you are going to believe the eye witness account of other employees to the detriment of that ministry then why not believe eye witness accounts that would benefit that ministry.

Have the persons who have this alleged first hand knowledge come and testify of it themselves and then it might have merit. Tell them to provide facts that support their version and refute the version of others. Those who you feel are doing so wrong have done these things; we didnt just take their word for it. Their claims were scrutinized and those which were substantiated were allowed to stand. Those like yourself have the same opportunity to provide evidence, opportunity you have to date been unwilling or unable to utilize... choosing rather to go the route of ad hominem in an effort to disparage this forum and those who post in it... but not once providing a shred of evidence that refutes what has been posted here.

I wasn't born last night either even though a toddler could see exactly how biased against them you are and how closed minded to anyone that gives 3abn and its leaders, the benefit of the doubt.
My eyewitness is just as good as your eyewitness. I think I've made my point

Only if your point is to show the level of ignorance you have regarding logic and your dependence upon logical fallacies and sensationalism... that point you have made loud and clear... but I was already convinced of it since you arrived here and began to speak.

You have made no other point, however.

In His service,
Mr. J