Take It To The Chruch. Options

[Fran]

WWJD Post

I have sectioned it off for easier reading on my part. I use Microsoft Word to compose my posts because I am a bad speller. I also corrected spelling and grammatical mistakes. I do not believe I changed any words that were posted, except for those stated.

My replies are in blue in the body of the post for a clearer understanding of what was said and my reply. Only for that reason.

WWJD: Cheating on your spouse is never acceptable.

Fran: We agree in this matter 100%. I also believe you need proof of adultery to Biblically put a spouse away. I also believe many divorces are done every day according to the earthly law. From here on, I will be talking about God’s Law and Man’s Law. They are not the same. Man is judged by two laws. Man’s and God’s.

To remain true to God, we divorce under God’s law. God only gave the OK for divorce because of the hardness of our hearts. And that one reason was adultery

I do not believe there is proof that Linda committed adultery and I question the Biblical Validity of that divorce and Danny’s remarriage.

I believe Tommy committed adultery and his wife had Biblical grounds for divorce, but she chose to remain with her husband. She must be commended for that decision. Tommy must be given credit for telling her everything that happened. That had to be a hard road to travel. I commend them both for the effort so strongly put forth.

WWJD: This was good in the eyes of God.

Fran: I am in total agreement.

WWJD: My problem here is this: We have no idea what really happened or exactly when, so...if any of the allegations did in fact, happen, we have no idea if he repented before God (on here it is just assumed he has not).

Fran: That is not my opinion. He apologized to one victim. That was right for him to do.

WWJD: If he confessed to his wife and family, sought their forgiveness, and with true repentance has walked the straight and narrow ever since. All on this forum say, “No he has not repented because he didn't apologize to the alleged ‘victims’."

Fran: Remember there are two laws at work here. I believe Tommy probably did repent and ask God and his family for repentance. However, he failed to apologize for his past actions to the ones that he hurt.

Look at it this way. God’s law was almost fulfilled. There is only one thing lacking. He needs to say he is sorry to all he has hurt. Danny should help him with reparations to some/all of those victims. That is what God would ask of Tommy at this time.

However, that does not fulfill the laws of the land. There are many followers of Christ on death row. God in his mercy has forgiven them because those inmates have asked him to, but there is a penalty that has to be paid because of the laws of the land. One of those requirements would be to have his name placed on the sexual offenders list. This is to help Tommy during his further recovery.

WWJD: Again, if any of the accusations are true, the bottom line is we don't know and will never know what he actually said or did not say, and to whom, and regardless we do not set the criteria for how anyone should receive forgiveness.

Fran: I totally agree. God has set that forth in His Word. I should be crystal clear, no matter what religion one is.

WWJD: We also do not know if he has received counseling that would keep him on track or not.

Fran: This is not one of God’s requirements. It is a good thing, but I don’t know if it is spelled out the Tommy needs a shrink. Godly counsel, yes, but I am not so sure about worldly counsel. I have to pass on that one. I would like to say it is mandatory, but I can’t with my limited knowledge on these matters.

WWJD: All I would like is for all, here, to think about this for a moment. If I am anywhere close to right in my scenario and there has been true repentance for any alleged wrongs, if he has had counseling, if he has made things right with his family a long time ago...then can you imagine for one second what this forum has done to him and his family?

Fran: Yes, I can imagine! I believe the information reported on this forum did cause Tommy, Carol and their family terrible pain. I believe it has caused Danny pain. Had Tommy taken care of “all” avenues of forgiveness with the alleged victims, we would not be here. As I see it, he took care of all that affected him. Why would he think he did not need to totally take responsibility with the alleged victims?

WWJD: [What about] The pain, the humiliation, and the embarrassment that this has cost him, his wife, children, grandchildren, and for what? For something that they may have worked through years ago and had maybe found some sort of healing and then....this forum happened.

Fran: That is because that one point was not taken care of. No care or regard for the alleged victims, only for family and self. That is why we are here today.

We are here also today because the law of the land has been broken and requires a law of the land forgiveness. That will happen in the court of the land. They will determine innocence or guilt. Then they will apply what ever is required. If he is innocent, he will go free.

WWJD: Not to even mention all the things that have been posted here that are not true like....he wasn't really in bad health and that was just an excuse when he got caught....I believe it was Joe Smith or eyewitness that gave the dates and hospitals where he had a heart attack, stint surgery, balloon surgery, heart catheters....so then everyone dropped that and went on to other accusations.

Fran: I believe Tommy does have health problems. I believe that many illnesses are caused by stress. I can prove it. I read those dates and saw Tommy was in trouble. Yes, I believe much of his stress was caused by what has be brought forward for the public to view right here on this and other forums.

Would we be here if Tommy had taken action in 2003 by apologizing to these alleged victims? Probably not; did Tommy actually think it would just go away? Did Danny think a few threats from a lawyer would stop what God allowed to be brought forth?

WWJD: My point being, how could we even take a chance on destroying a man’s life and family, when there are so many things that we truly do not know about the whole situation.

Fran: What about the families and lives of the alleged victims? They fall under both laws. Were they dealt with under God’s law? Have they had their day under the laws of the land? I know it is not my intent that any should be harmed. However, when we break the laws of the land, we must answer to the laws of the land. That is a hard thing to say.

WWJD: If I am right in what I believe has happened (and I think I am ) then not only will we be accountable to God for what has been done but, should something to happen to him (another heart attack) because of the grief this site has caused, I believe his blood will be on the hands of his crucifiers.

Fran: This is something you cannot decide. We each must meet our maker face to face with our actions and lives. We are not here today because I sinned and forgot to apologize to the child of God I hurt. We are here because of the pain of these families and of the alleged victims of Tommy Shelton.

Tommy took care of “his end” of the matter but “left the other undone.” Somewhere, this has to happen. Because he refused to apologize, the alleged victims want their day in court. At this point, I do not believe they will back down. However, maybe it is not too late.

WWJD: You need to lighten up, I thought her [Linda’s] payments were stretched out for 3 years. You are telling me that's wrong, so fine, I will take your word for it that you know that it was 2. It really makes no difference; the figures are still the same. The defenders of 3ABN can't make an honest mistake about anything without almost being called liars. You guys can make up any scenario you want.

Fran: The amount of time, 2 or 3 years is not relevant. You are correct. I do not believe we are here to make up any scenario we want. We all want the truth; what ever that is! We ask, but receive no answers. That is all we want: answers.

I am not sure if you are Danny or not. However, if you are, you have always been in my prayers. So has Linda. I truly admire Linda and believe she is a very spiritual being. I have formed this opinion by watching her lack of action. I have never met her or you in all honestly.

I have watched you for 3 years too. There are times in my life where I can’t see beyond my hands. Sometimes I lash out and say what I don’t really mean. Too late, I already did it! When someone hurts me, I may lash out and speak what is on my mind at that moment, but soon change my mind and calm down. Then I have to back up and apologize for what I said.

I believe that is what happened with you and Linda. You felt betrayed and lashed out, but forgot to calm down and apologize for unbecoming words. Your words got worse not better. This hurt you have has cut so deep you have not been able to let it go. This is bad for your health and Linda’s. So what if you were wrong about the adultery? So what if you were right?

Over this you are sitting in a position that is shaking at the core. Has it been worth it? What have you gained by badmouthing every one? You don’t loose any money, Mr. M has enough money to go to court on all 22 + counts. You will probably win a few and loose a few. What will you have gained?

Please sit down with your lawyer and lay it all on the table with him and figure out how to cause the least damage to 3ABN. Please allow it to continue to be used to spread the truth to the world.

Is it possible to back out gracefully? Is it possible for you to leave and have a party for yourself? You are getting on in years. You have enough to take Brandy and live a very nice life with your new love. If things continue, all of the financial stuff is going to pour out. The courts will be full of these 22+ trials. Money will be lost on both sides. It could cause 3ABN to have to shut down. I beg you to not let that happen.

Please don’t get angry with my words. They are not meant to hurt, but to cause us both to think about options available for all of us.

[ex3ABNemployee]

That's right, and it wasn't the only one that sounded like that. He made at least another one. It was starting to get spooky!

Didn't bother me in the least. I actually wanted eye witness to keep going. None of that stuff has anything to do with me. I wanted to hear the end of the story. I'm sure someone else will come along with more details.

[inga]

wwjd,


Let ask you direct question, does it make tommy S. actions any more acceptable, any less cheating on his wife, and any less abusing of his office as a pastor, IF any of his victims were in fact of non- heterosexual nature. YES or NO.

Thanks, Erik. This was my thought exactly!

When a pastor sexually propositions anyone in his care, the victim's sexual orientation does not matter one iota!! It is still sexual abuse by virtue of the fact that he is a pastor and thus in a position of spiritual if not physical power over his victim. Even if the victim is of the age of consent, it is still sexual abuse!

Furthermore, "making things right with his family" does not come close to filling the requirements for genuine repentance. The perpetrator needs to apologize to his victims and register as a sex offender!

[erik]

Good eye Inga - I noted their "stretch" as well. Boy, are they wrong....thinking we don't know our facts!

WWJD,


i agree we should never falsely accuse anyone, the problem that i see with even suggesting that tommy is not guilty is that there are at three written letters from victims, none that mention tommy trying to make things right. on top of that we have letter from tommy's ss leader, and a mother of a different victim.

so inless you a can go to tommy's family and get some letters that state clearly that all the above letters of victims are lairs, and why what they claimed happened did not happen.

Also you SIDE-STEPPED my question the last time so please answer it with a simple yes or no.


erik

[Bystander]

WWJD,
i agree we should never falsely accuse anyone, the problem that i see with even suggesting that tommy is not guilty is that there are at three written letters from victims, none that mention tommy trying to make things right. on top of that we have letter from tommy's ss leader, and a mother of a different victim.

so inless you a can go to tommy's family and get some letters that state clearly that all the above letters of victims are lairs, and why what they claimed happened did not happen.

Also you SIDE-STEPPED my question the last time so please answer it with a simple yes or no.
erik

eric, I think you need to re read wwjd's post. he didn't call anyone liars and ,in fact, discussed a scenerio that could happen to Tommy's family if alleged allegations were true. Also what did he sidestep?
WWJD: Cheating on your spouse is never acceptable.

This post has been edited by Bystander: Feb 5 2007, 12:41 PM

[erik]

eric, I think you need to re read wwjd's post. he didn't call anyone liars and ,in fact, discussed a scenerio that could happen to Tommy's family if alleged allegations were true. Also what did he sidestep?
WWJD: Cheating on your spouse is never acceptable.

Bystander,

cheating on your spouse was not my question maybe you need to reread my post.

secondly, if tommy has made peace with his wife and family great more power to them, but i would say that he has not made peace with his victims, and the letters from the lawyers do not seem to me to be a sign of a man that at peace with this mistake of his at all.

Instead of trying to white wash this topic, lets just have blunt consent discussion. i asked a very simple yes or no question wwjd side stepped the question, and then tried to make us feel sorry for tommy's family. AND you know what i do feel sorry for them, but not any less then i do any victims of tommy's.

If tommy is innocent then lets see the proof, if he is guilty and has made amends for his actions then lets see the proof of that and end this topic once and for all, and yes by the way the answers to those questions would make his accusers lairs.

Byustander, if this is going to stay out of the public news media, and the courts then some peopel are going to have step up to the plate and start laying out a path out of this mess.

and the truth is the best way for this to happen.

Erik

[Bystander]

Byustander, if this is going to stay out of the public news media, and the courts then some peopel are going to have step up to the plate and start laying out a path out of this mess.

and the truth is the best way for this to happen.

Erik
[/quote]

My personal opinion is that there will be a path out of this mess, but it certainly won't be done on here.

[erik]

Byustander, if this is going to stay out of the public news media, and the courts then some peopel are going to have step up to the plate and start laying out a path out of this mess.

and the truth is the best way for this to happen.

Erik
My personal opinion is that there will be a path out of this mess, but it certainly won't be done on here.

bystander,

you very well might be right, but it could be done here or anywhere else were in side of the sda church that is willing to look at the facts and leave the options behind. the facts are very limited at this point, so this is why you see so much option flying around,.

So again i say that has the person who made all this public danny S. needs place all his cards on the table. If he is right then those cards will show that if he is not then we can see were changes need to be made.

erik

[sonshineonme]

eric, I think you need to re read wwjd's post. he didn't call anyone liars and ,in fact, discussed a scenerio that could happen to Tommy's family if alleged allegations were true. Also what did he sidestep?
WWJD: Cheating on your spouse is never acceptable.

Dear bystander, er, ah, I mean WWJD......made a little error didn't you.....forgot who you were signed in under....did the ol edit thing, but not soon enough. (here's your smiley)

[princessdi]

No, they can't wwjd, especially when they had been suspended for this and Calvin made a point to say it was off limits. Plain and simple. Eye witness sole purpose was to paint Duane as a homosexual, mistakenly thinking this would lessen Tommy's accountability in some way. She was suspended for this, and I am sure she at least read the warning. However, she did not remember the BSDA motto: This is not Sabbath School, we pay attention. Veiling her accustions and inuendos did not work, and now she is banned.

We will not tolerate the further victimization of the any member, let alone the men who have come forward as alleged molestation victims of Tommy Shelton(yes, at this point I[I am only speaking for myself here] take them at their word, especially since they all have the same story) Tommy is nothing nothing, His defenders are not even proclaiming complete innocence, but trying to sae him from prison on a technicality(17 is the age of consent in IL, and questioning the character of the witnesses, but not aowrd aobut he didn't do it. So what am I suppsoed to do with that?) Just that simple. You have a problem PM myself, Steve or Calvin.

It is hilarious how everyone here can throw vicious accusations around as statement of fact, but any 3abn defender can't even insinuate or hint at something (that maybe they know) and they get the boot.

[sonshineonme]

Are you talking about Tommy or his victims?

Exactly. well said Duane. Again, it's all about DS. Look deeply.

Tommy is having this trouble and suffering consequences in part because of his own brother.

It would be nice if the resolution would be something like developing a plan for reconciliation that includes the victims and arranges for counseling and some form of compensation. That would be the appropriate resolution to the entire matter and leave everyone whole and reconciled to Christ.

If that tact HAD been taken (which is what you would expect from Christians), the forum and all else would have not been neccasary.

[Pickle]

Moderators,

It has been pointed out that Bystander's original post said:

eric, I think you need to re read my post. I didn't call anyone liars and ,in fact, discussed a scenerio that could happen to his family if alleged allegations were true. Also what did I sidestep?
WWJD: Cheating on your spouse is never acceptable.

It was then edited to say:

eric, I think you need to re read wwjd's post. he didn't call anyone liars and ,in fact, discussed a scenerio that could happen to Tommy's family if alleged allegations were true. Also what did he sidestep?
WWJD: Cheating on your spouse is never acceptable.

Any penalty for the same person posting using two accounts?

And to all apologists: If the victims of a pedophile have moral problems, who taught them to have such problems?

This post has been edited by Pickle: Feb 5 2007, 05:38 PM

[princessdi]

Moderators,

It has been pointed out that Bystander's original post said:
Any penalty for the same person posting using two accounts?

In all fariness, it can also be that the two are using the same pc. We all know that because we use the same pc(s) to access BSDA, in particular, we are not required to log in. That might also be the case.

And to all apologists: If the victims of a pedophile have moral problems, who taught them to have such problems?

[Pickle]

Problem is that Bystander's post used to say "my" and "I" and now says "WWJD" and "he." It wasn't that Bystander and WWJD used the same computer. It was that Bystander identified himself as being WWJD.

Is that not a problem? Or is it all right for the rest of us to do that kind of thing too?

[Brenda]

Bystander Said

eric, I think you need to re read wwjd's post. he didn't call anyone liars and ,in fact, discussed a scenerio that could happen to Tommy's family if alleged allegations were true. Also what did he sidestep?
WWJD: Cheating on your spouse is never acceptable.

Brenda thinks:

I read this to be Bystander replying to two separate posts from Eric and WWJD, in a single post.

To me this post does not indicate that Bystander and WWJD are one and the same. (ie I could not draw that conclusion on the basis of this post, no comment on any other indicators out there).

Just my take.