Proofs, Or Lack Thereof, A concern of causing false assumptions Options

[mozart]

inga,
what got 3ABN to the place where it is now is backsliding, unfaithfulness, pride and following and believing in self above God. also, i don't think 3ABN can be called a "small group".

i'm not sure what mindset you read into what i said, but i don't think the mindset is the problem. i think it's the person behind the mindset. would you say Martin Luther was of that mindset? was he a problem to the organizational church? absolutely. was he a problem to God? i don't think so.

if the church organization falls away (which it is gradually doing) then we who want to stay faithful have to follow our conscience as God leads us. maybe the GC will turn around and start to "walk that narrow path". who knows? i pray it will.

i said nothing about thinking that i am special. i am, however, determined to follow God as best i can, not an organization.

the Bible says in the end times we will have to "flee to the mountains". even Mrs. White said that in the end times we will have to shelter ourselves and worship in small groups. does that make us radicals or rebels? absolutely not. it just means we are faithful.
now if some people want to "jump the gun" and go off on a self-righteous tangent (as many have) that's their problem, but that is not what i'm talking about.

Mozart, that's precisely the kind of thinking that got 3ABN to the place where it is now -- the conviction that they are a special "small group" "who stay faithful to the truth" while the church "falls away." The money that's keeping 3ABN's misdeeds covered comes from folks with the same kind of mindset.

Do you really want to go there?

[inga]

inga,
what got 3ABN to the place where it is now is backsliding, unfaithfulness, pride and following and believing in self above God. also, i don't think 3ABN can be called a "small group".

i'm not sure what mindset you read into what i said, but i don't think the mindset is the problem. i think it's the person behind the mindset.

The mind set of "I am part of the elect and most of the rest of the church will fall away" is precisely what is creating a lot of trouble through independent ministries. The participants do not realize that their attitude is most like the Pharisees who crucified Jesus. The attitude is also one that leads to extremism because folks with an "elect" attitude will not listen to anyone. (Note that Danny Shelton is an extreme example. He is specifically "chosen" and "anointed" to lead 3ABN in its "prophetic" ministry.)

would you say Martin Luther was of that mindset?

I don't recall Luther as being on record for believing that he was especially chosen of God to root out the evil in his church. What caused Luther to rise as a leader was his integrity that caused him to stand for the right, though the heavens fall. We need that kind of spirit. Let God take care of the consequences.

was he a problem to the organizational church? absolutely. was he a problem to God? i don't think so.

if the church organization falls away (which it is gradually doing) then we who want to stay faithful have to follow our conscience as God leads us. maybe the GC will turn around and start to "walk that narrow path". who knows? i pray it will.

As I indicated, I believe this line of thinking is dangerous to your/our personal relationship with God. It is so easy to become another "Danny" in our own sphere.

Ellen White made clear that the church would appear as though it were about to fall, but it would not fall. This cannot be the invisible church (true believers) because it cannot appear to be about to fall, by definition. (It is invisible.) Ellen's reference, therefore, is to the organized church.

i said nothing about thinking that i am special. i am, however, determined to follow God as best i can, not an organization.

I was not addressing you personally, but the line of thinking you proposed. I am still doing that.

There is a difference between being determined to follow God at all costs and keeping in mind that the church will likely fall. The latter has a subtle and not-so-subtle influence to make us deaf to counsel that may very well be needed to keep us on the narrow path. I've seen it, and I see it in my own local congregation. I've been quite astonished to see it in individuals that always appeared (to me, at least) to be conscientious Christians. It's stunning to witness the un-Christlike behavior of those who perceive themselves to be among the "elect" while most of the rest of the church will likely "fall away."

Ellen White actually had something to say on this very subject. She indicate that, at the end of time, the conservative element would hinder the work of Christ.

For an interesting exercise, look up every mention of "conservative" and "conservatism" in the writings of Ellen White. You may be in for a surprise ..

This post has been edited by inga: May 28 2007, 02:47 PM

[PeacefulBe]

(mozart @ May 20 2007, 05:03 PM)

i think that what i have always understood as ".....a falling away first...." does not pertain to those who i thought it did. i thought the "falling away" would be those leaving the faith, but now i think that the "falling away" IS the organizational church leaving the Faith. it seems so clear to me now that those that will stand to the end are those few who stay faithful to the truth; small groups scorned by the SDA (name copyrighted) church as we know it.

Mozart, that's precisely the kind of thinking that got 3ABN to the place where it is now -- the conviction that they are a special "small group" "who stay faithful to the truth" while the church "falls away." The money that's keeping 3ABN's misdeeds covered comes from folks with the same kind of mindset.

Do you really want to go there?

As flawed as our organizational structure may be, I believe that many of our leaders are dedicated to following God's guidance and will for our church. Of course there are obviously some leaders who don't have that connection with God that keeps their faith as strong as it needs to be to stay strong to principle. This is a course that any of us are in danger of following anytime we look to self or man rather than to God for strength.

We can't know for certain whether or not the church structure will stay in place until we are told to run for the hills, but I think there are three things we can be certain of:

1. If we lose faith that God is in control of our church, we will be in danger of losing faith in the message as well. That will lead to second-guessing what that message actually is and then we will be vulnerable to Satan's "winds of doctrine".

2. Man is not in a position to determine if the church structure as a whole should be cast off, but should seek to help solve problems as they are revealed.

3. There will be church leaders hiding in the hills joyously waiting for the first glimpse of that small cloud that heralds our deliverance.

[inga]

Amen to all you wrote above, PB!

Of course, not all leaders are dedicated. There are various means and various motivations that lead to leadership positions.

However, it's well to not the example of Christ. As apostate as most of the church leaders of the time were, Christ did not preach against the church of the time. He did call leaders to repentance, and He told the people to do as the leaders said, not as they did. I think we should be very careful about even thinking that the church will "fall away." We need the checks and balances we find by being in church fellowship. Otherwise we all have the tendency to become our own gods. The history of off-shoots and many independent ministries should be a warning to us.

As flawed as our organizational structure may be, I believe that many of our leaders are dedicated to following God's guidance and will for our church. Of course there are obviously some leaders who don't have that connection with God that keeps their faith as strong as it needs to be to stay strong to principle. This is a course that any of us are in danger of following anytime we look to self or man rather than to God for strength.

We can't know for certain whether or not the church structure will stay in place until we are told to run for the hills, but I think there are three things we can be certain of:

1. If we lose faith that God is in control of our church, we will be in danger of losing faith in the message as well. That will lead to second-guessing what that message actually is and then we will be vulnerable to Satan's "winds of doctrine".

2. Man is not in a position to determine if the church structure as a whole should be cast off, but should seek to help solve problems as they are revealed.

3. There will be church leaders hiding in the hills joyously waiting for the first glimpse of that small cloud that heralds our deliverance.

[Clay]

A warning that we should not trust men... a warning that we need to keep our focus on Christ... Paul said follow me AS I follow Christ, the directive being clear, if he (Paul) wasn't following Christ he was not to be followed...

God's true church is invisible, we have no idea who comprises that church, though we often act like the denomination we see, comprises God's true church...

Lastly, where in the bible does it say that in the last days will followers of Christ will have to flee to the mountains? Scripture please....

[YogusBearus]

A warning that we should not trust men... a warning that we need to keep our focus on Christ... Paul said follow me AS I follow Christ, the directive being clear, if he (Paul) wasn't following Christ he was not to be followed...

God's true church is invisible, we have no idea who comprises that church, though we often act like the denomination we see, comprises God's true church...

Lastly, where in the bible does it say that in the last days will followers of Christ will have to flee to the mountains? Scripture please....

Absolutely agreed on both points!

I would also love to see the scripture basis for hiding in the mountains/hills scenario.

-bear

[PeacefulBe]

A warning that we should not trust men... a warning that we need to keep our focus on Christ... Paul said follow me AS I follow Christ, the directive being clear, if he (Paul) wasn't following Christ he was not to be followed...

God's true church is invisible, we have no idea who comprises that church, though we often act like the denomination we see, comprises God's true church...

God's true church is that body of believers, The Body of Christ, who truly follow HIM. Our denomination can certainly be included in that Body. It is only when we claim to be the only true church that we are in error. I love the description of the "true church" in Ephesians 4:11 - 16:

11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12 to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. 15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. 16 From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.

Lastly, where in the bible does it say that in the last days will followers of Christ will have to flee to the mountains? Scripture please....

Clay,

Since it is your 47th birthday I will gladly show you where in the bible it says that in the last days the followers of Christ will have to flee to the mountains. Matthew 24:15 - 25:

15 "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. 22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time."

[Voktar of Zargon]

In Matthew 24:15,16 etc. it says: "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains..."
The events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem were a type of the events which will transpire at the end of the world. In Matthew 24 Christ answers His disciples question about both the destruction of the temple and the end of the world in one "Olivet Discourse." The abomination of desolation in 70A.D was the sight of the Pagan Roman power and the idolotrous emblem of its authority. The abomination of the last days will be the idolotrous emblem of Papal Rome and its blasphemous authority. When this standard is raised before the world, its time to head for the hills. Then "Pray that your flight is not on the Sabbath' - and, that your faith is grounded in the Word of God.

[Clay]

Ummmm time out... we do not live in Judea.... V of Z you have taken scriptural license given that what Jesus was talking about was the siege of Jerusalem... and that has happened..... so given that what Jesus was talking about happened within the 1st century, are there any more texts you care to provide to support this position of fleeing to the mountains?

[PeacefulBe]

Clay,
If you click on the link below, it will take you to Matthew 24 on the Bible Gateway site. If you look at the headings and read the whole chapter, you will find that Jesus is talking about the end of the age and also the signs of the coming of the son of man. Yes, He was warning of the coming destruction of Jerusalem, but also about the end times just before He was to come back.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_...&version=31

[Clay]

Clay,
If you click on the link below, it will take you to Matthew 24 on the Bible Gateway site. If you look at the headings and read the whole chapter, you will find that Jesus is talking about the end of the age and also the signs of the coming of the son of man. Yes, He was warning of the coming destruction of Jerusalem, but also about the end times just before He was to come back.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_...&version=31

I am aware of the interpretations, Jesus was speaking to the people who were listening to him at the time. His words had meaning for them at that time, not 2000 yrs in the future, it is safe to say that He expected to return long before now... having said that however consider the fact that the "end times" started after Jesus returned to heaven... Paul in fact states in Hebrews, "in these last days" so I will give you the siege of Jerusalem, and even the persecution by the Catholic Church during the dark ages..... but are you extrapolating the meaning to here and now?

[Voktar of Zargon]

Ummmm time out... we do not live in Judea.... V of Z you have taken scriptural license given that what Jesus was talking about was the siege of Jerusalem... and that has happened..... so given that what Jesus was talking about happened within the 1st century, are there any more texts you care to provide to support this position of fleeing to the mountains?

Don't tell me. We are not Israel either? If I am taking Scriptural license then so are a host of Historicist expositors. You, however are sounding like a Preterist. Are you of the Preterist persuasion?

"3rd. What should be the signs that the end of the world was near. To these questions he replies in this and the following chapters. This he does, not by noticing them distinctly, but by intermingling the descriptions of the destruction of Jerusalem, and of the end of the world; so that it is sometimes difficult to tell to what particular subject his remarks apply. The principle on which this combined description of two events was spoken appears to be, that they could be described in the same words, and, therefore, the accounts are intermingled. A similar use of language is found in some parts of Isaiah, where the same language will describe the return from the Babylonish captivity, and deliverance by the Messiah, and therefore was used by the prophet. See Barnes "Isaiah 1:1", paragraph 7. " - Albert Barnes Commentary on NT

It is your perfect right to stay put when the abomination comes down. As for me and my house, we're headin' for the hills!

[Clay]

Don't tell me. We are not Israel either? If I am taking Scriptural license then so are a host of Historicist expositors. You, however are sounding like a Preterist. Are you of the Preterist persuasion?

"3rd. What should be the signs that the end of the world was near. To these questions he replies in this and the following chapters. This he does, not by noticing them distinctly, but by intermingling the descriptions of the destruction of Jerusalem, and of the end of the world; so that it is sometimes difficult to tell to what particular subject his remarks apply. The principle on which this combined description of two events was spoken appears to be, that they could be described in the same words, and, therefore, the accounts are intermingled. A similar use of language is found in some parts of Isaiah, where the same language will describe the return from the Babylonish captivity, and deliverance by the Messiah, and therefore was used by the prophet. See Barnes "Isaiah 1:1", paragraph 7. " - Albert Barnes Commentary on NT

It is your perfect right to stay put when the abomination comes down. As for me and my house, we're headin' for the hills!

thank you for the clarification...... no we are not Israel.... no matter how many times we tell ourselves that we are...

As for my persuasion.... It is my belief that what was told or written had specific meaning for those listening or receiving the word at that time... it may or may not have meaning for us here and now...

If something should occur here and now, it is my belief that God will take care of his own as he always has throughout earth's history....

For your consideration and why I think you are wrong.....emphasis mine....

Mar 13:19-27

For those days will be a time of suffering, a kind that has not happened from the beginning of the creation that God made until now and certainly will never happen again. (20) If the Lord did not limit those days, no one would be saved. But for the sake of the elect whom he has chosen, he has limited those days. (21) "At that time, if anyone says to you, 'Look! Here is the Christ!', or, 'Look! There he is!', don't believe it. (22) For false christs and false prophets will appear and produce signs and omens to deceive, if possible, the elect. (23) So be on your guard! I've told you everything before it happens." (24) "But after the suffering of those days, 'The sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light, (25) the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of heaven will be shaken loose.' (26) Then people will see 'the Son of Man coming in clouds' with great power and glory. (27) He will send out his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven."

Jesus said after the suffering the stars would fall and the sun darkened... as adventists we said that happened in 1700s and early 1800s.... that being the case, according to the text, the next thing on the agenda is the 2nd coming... so what's your take?

[Voktar of Zargon]

thank you for the clarification...... no we are not Israel.... no matter how many times we tell ourselves that we are...

Do you mean that you are not a Jew or Abraham's seed either?

[Jnana15]

It is your perfect right to stay put when the abomination comes down. As for me and my house, we're headin' for the hills!

Amen!! I headed for the hills before Y2K and it has been a learning experience for me being of color living in the mountains. There is no way that our family could have survived without the help of other christians that were willing to show us how to get through the rough winters and I mean rough. Now we can help others.

My husband and I are pleading with family to prepare to leave the city before it's too late. They think that we are crazy. They remind me of Lot's wife.

This post has been edited by Jnana15: May 28 2007, 06:48 PM