Proofs, Or Lack Thereof, A concern of causing false assumptions Options

[PeacefulBe]

Well, wherever those who have remained connected to God, have grown to really know Him and have, through His power, remained faithful, that's where I want to be standing and watching for Jesus. If that is the hills, we will know without a doubt. If that is in Union Square, we will know it without a doubt.

I happen to believe it will be the hills and that those waiting will be of one accord. Once we all flee the structure of society, we will probably not call ourselves Seventh-day Adventists. Many will have separated themselves from other denominations to flee the persecution of those trying to force on them the worship of an earthly power instead of God. We will not be tithing to the storehouse, supporting the church budget, censuring errant members, holding outreach programs or any of the other trappings of the corporate church because there won't be a need for any of that, including any corporate name. All will simply know that they are The Redeemed of the Lord.

[LaurenceD]

Jesus said after the suffering the stars would fall and the sun darkened... as adventists we said that happened in 1700s and early 1800s....

Stars? Or, cosmic Tempel-Tuttle debris?

The Great Leonid Meteor Storm of 1833
http://science.nasa.gov/NEWHOME/headlines/ast22jun99_2.htm

[PeacefulBe]

Do you mean that you are not a Jew or Abraham's seed either?

VoZ,
Galations 3:15, 16 is very clear who Abraham's seed is and it is not us:

15 Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ.

I know it came as a shock to me to read it the other day. However, we are his descendants that God told would be "as the sand" (or was it the dust).

Galations 3:6, 7 says:

6 Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." 7 Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham.

[Clay]

Do you mean that you are not a Jew or Abraham's seed either?

and neither are you.... for your consideration.....you and I are gentiles... unless you know something I don't....

Rom 11:1-36

So I ask, "Has God rejected his people Israel?" That's unthinkable! Consider this. I'm an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham from the tribe of Benjamin. (2) God has not rejected his people whom he knew long ago. Don't you know what Elijah says in the Scripture passage when he complains to God about Israel? He says, (3) "Lord, they've killed your prophets and torn down your altars. I'm the only one left, and they're trying to take my life." (4) But what was God's reply? God said, "I've kept 7,000 people for myself who have not knelt to worship Baal." (5) So, as there were then, there are now a few left that God has chosen by his kindness. (6) If they were chosen by God's kindness, they weren't chosen because of anything they did. Otherwise, God's kindness wouldn't be kindness. (7) So what does all this mean? It means that Israel has never achieved what it has been striving for. However, those whom God has chosen have achieved it. The minds of the rest of Israel were closed, (8) as Scripture says, "To this day God has given them a spirit of deep sleep. Their eyes don't see, and their ears don't hear!" (9) And David says, "Let the table set for them become a trap and a net, a snare and a punishment for them. (10) Let their vision become clouded so that they cannot see. Let them carry back-breaking burdens forever." (11) So I ask, "Has Israel stumbled so badly that it can't get up again?" That's unthinkable! By Israel's failure, salvation has come to people who are not Jewish to make the Jewish people jealous. (12) The fall of the Jewish people made the world spiritually rich. Their failure made people who are not Jewish spiritually rich. So the inclusion of Jewish people will make the world even richer. (13) Now, I speak to you who are not Jewish. As long as I am an apostle sent to people who are not Jewish, I bring honor to my ministry. (14) Perhaps I can make my people jealous and save some of them. (15) If Israel's rejection means that the world has been brought back to God, what does Israel's acceptance mean? It means that Israel has come back to life. (16) If the first handful of dough is holy, the whole batch of dough is holy. If the root is holy, the branches are holy. (17) But some of the olive branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive branch, have been grafted in their place. You get your nourishment from the roots of the olive tree. (18) So don't brag about being better than the other branches. If you brag, remember that you don't support the root, the root supports you. (19) "Well," you say, "Branches were cut off so that I could be grafted onto the tree." (20) That's right! They were broken off because they didn't believe, but you remain on the tree because you do believe. Don't feel arrogant, but be afraid. (21) If God didn't spare the natural branches, he won't spare you, either. (22) Look at how kind and how severe God can be. He is severe to those who fell, but kind to you if you continue to hold on to his kindness. Otherwise, you, too, will be cut off from the tree. (23) If Jewish people do not continue in their unbelief, they will be grafted onto the tree again, because God is able to do that. (24) In spite of the fact that you have been cut from a wild olive tree, you have been grafted onto a cultivated one. So wouldn't it be easier for these natural branches to be grafted onto the olive tree they belong to? (25) Brothers and sisters, I want you to understand this mystery so that you won't become arrogant. The minds of some Israelites have become closed until all of God's non-Jewish people are included. (26) In this way Israel as a whole will be saved, as Scripture says, "The Savior will come from Zion. He will remove godlessness from Jacob. (27) My promise to them will be fulfilled when I take away their sins." (28) The Good News made the Jewish people enemies because of you. But by God's choice they are loved because of their ancestors. (29) God never changes his mind when he gives gifts or when he calls someone. (30) In the past, you disobeyed God. But now God has been merciful to you because of the disobedience of the Jewish people. (31) In the same way, the Jewish people have also disobeyed so that God may be merciful to them as he was to you. (32) God has placed all people into the prison of their own disobedience so that he could be merciful to all people. (33) God's riches, wisdom, and knowledge are so deep that it is impossible to explain his decisions or to understand his ways. (34) "Who knows how the Lord thinks? Who can become his adviser?" (35) Who gave the Lord something which the Lord must pay back? (36) Everything is from him and by him and for him. Glory belongs to him forever! Amen!

[Voktar of Zargon]

Amen!! I headed for the hills before Y2K and it has been a learning experience for me being of color living in the mountains. There is no way that our family could have survived without the help of other christians that were willing to show us how to get through the rough winters and I mean rough. Now we can help others.

My husband and I are pleading with family to prepare to leave the city before it's too late. They think that we are crazy. They remind me of Lot's wife.

I can't help but think that the most important thing is not our geographical location but our spiritual locale. We need to be in the "Cleft of the Rock." The flight spoken of in Matthew 24 is a much more dramatic exodus just before the close of probation. Then our geographical locale may be important, just as it was for the Christians who fled to Pella when the legions retreated from their siege of Jerusalem. Unless our lives are hid in Christ though, it doesn't matter if you're holed up in Antarctica - the Devil will get you there.

On the other hand there are very good reasons that we have been counseled to migrate (in a less hasty way) to rural areas at this time. The exposure to sin and its consequences is greatly lessened. The spiritual benefits of a life lived more in harmony with nature is after God's created order. A life lived in an urban environment is more like ancient Babel.

My experience is that many people have difficulty breaking with a life lived in the city for a variety of reasons. I am convinced that many of the men I have worked with in the prisons I have been employed at would not have suffered incarceration if they grew up in the country. Many of them would not have returned for multiple stays in prison if they had found the motivation and support to migrate elsewhere. It is not easy to break free of one's environment of origin, for multiple reasons.

More power to you for the courage to be different. Let us not forget that there are still millions of souls in those cities who need to hear the gospel - perhaps you can still reach some of them from your outpost.

This post has been edited by Voktar of Zargon: May 28 2007, 07:30 PM

[Clay]

Well, wherever those who have remained connected to God, have grown to really know Him and have, through His power, remained faithful, that's where I want to be standing and watching for Jesus. If that is the hills, we will know without a doubt. If that is in Union Square, we will know it without a doubt.

I happen to believe it will be the hills and that those waiting will be of one accord. Once we all flee the structure of society, we will probably not call ourselves Seventh-day Adventists. Many will have separated themselves from other denominations to flee the persecution of those trying to force on them the worship of an earthly power instead of God. We will not be tithing to the storehouse, supporting the church budget, censuring errant members, holding outreach programs or any of the other trappings of the corporate church because there won't be a need for any of that, including any corporate name. All will simply know that they are The Redeemed of the Lord.

that is your opinion and thank you for sharing... no scripture to support it, but then again with some things we believe it without biblical support.... its all good... thanks again.....

[SoulEspresso]

"Fleeing to the hills" is soon to be a technological anachronism, what with implanted chips, etc ... unless Jesus comes tomorrow (pleasepleaseplease )

This post has been edited by SoulEspresso: May 28 2007, 07:29 PM

[PeacefulBe]

"Fleeing to the hills" is soon to be a technological anachronism, what with implanted chips, etc ... unless Jesus comes tomorrow (pleasepleaseplease )

If the Lord can speak the universe into existance, He can certainly whisper an EMP to disable any of man's technology. Plus, if He can veil the angels from our view He can certainly make us invisible from those who would harm us.

[Clay]

If the Lord can speak the universe into existance, He can certainly whisper an EMP to disable any of man's technology. Plus, if He can veil the angels from our view He can certainly make us invisible from those who would harm us.

that being the case, there would be no need to flee....

[PeacefulBe]

that being the case, there would be no need to flee....

unless He advises us to do so...

[Clay]

unless He advises us to do so...

correct, and you have yet to provide the text suggesting such....

[PeacefulBe]

correct, and you have yet to provide the text suggesting such....

Perhaps not to your satisfaction, but I have scripturally proven it to myself. If you have a text that proves me wrong, please bring it.

[Voktar of Zargon]

correct, and you have yet to provide the text suggesting such....

The text was provided. You don't accept the interpretation. And that's your privilege.

[Voktar of Zargon]

VoZ,
Galations 3:15, 16 is very clear who Abraham's seed is and it is not us:

15 Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ.

and neither are you.... for your consideration.....you and I are gentiles... unless you know something I don't....
Galatians 3:29 says of course, "And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed...", which means that what ever else Abraham's seed represents, we also are Abraham's seed according to the Bible.
Paul also says that a Jew is one whose heart has been circumcised (Rom.2:28,29) which means once again that, no matter what other meaning "Jew" has, we are Jews.

This post has been edited by Voktar of Zargon: May 28 2007, 08:04 PM

[mozart]

inga,
i appreciate what you are trying to say but i don't appreciate you comparing my thinking or ideas to DS or anyone else who thinks they are the "elect" or the "anointed", etc. you are using what i said so you can make condemning points toward DS and other independent ministries who self-righteously think they know more than anybody else. those that think they are "holier than thou". i most certainly am not of that "mindset" nor was i eluding to that line of thinking.
you say you are not talking about me personally but then you say,

"As I indicated, I believe this line of thinking is dangerous to your/our personal relationship with God. It is so easy to become another "Danny" in our own sphere."

i find that intensely offensive. i get your point but i don't like you putting me in the middle of your point. i am nothing like that now nor, by God's grace, will i ever be. i am just investigating ideas. that idea crossed my mind and i shared it here with my friends knowing that i would get some good feed-back which i am more than willing to listen to. in fact, i am anxious to listen to it. i pray for discernment that by God's grace i am neither weak minded nor unbalanced.

if you would reread my reply to you, you might see that i am not talking about people who have feelings of self-importance. this is why i mentioned Luther. he was following his conscience and not feelings of his own grandeur and he did choose to walk away from the organized church. he said, "he could do no other". some day we may have to make that choice. that is all i am saying.

remember that the first definition of the word church is a group of people. my loyalty is not to the organized church, it is to the Bible. i am supportive of my church family and many of our evangelists, but i do not put my denomination on Holy Ground or think for one minute that i am esteemed above any one. By God's Grace, i am part of the elect because i believe in HIM. that is HIS promise, but i know better than anyone that it is not because of anything i have done or will do except to believe.

i will not be afraid to stand on my beliefs for fear that someone might accuse me of being a conservative (according to today's standards which are not the same standards of Mrs. White !).

I don't recall Luther as being on record for believing that he was especially chosen of God to root out the evil in his church.
i don't recall saying i thought that way either.
What caused Luther to rise as a leader was his integrity that caused him to stand for the right, though the heavens fall. We need that kind of spirit.
This is exactly what i was saying.
Let God take care of the consequences......

......Ellen White actually had something to say on this very subject. She indicate that, at the end of time, the conservative element would hinder the work of Christ.

For an interesting exercise, look up every mention of "conservative" and "conservatism" in the writings of Ellen White. You may be in for a surprise ..

well, i am not sure what you mean by surprised as i am not the least surprised. today's church has a much different definition of conservative than Mrs. White had. in all of EGW's references that i have read using the word conservative(s), she is speaking of people who are conservative about their religious convictions or lack thereof. in other words, they still hold on to world views, they want a compromised faith, they hold back on complete faith and surrender, they're afraid to believe too strongly or be a "peculiar" people.
i.e.:
Here are some of Mrs. White's quotes -

Superficial Believers Will Renounce the Faith

"The work which the church has failed to do in a time of peace and prosperity she will have to do in a terrible crisis under most discouraging, forbidding circumstances. The warnings that worldly conformity has silenced or withheld must be given under the fiercest opposition from enemies of the faith. And at that time the superficial, conservative [ELLEN WHITE IS NOT HERE DISTINGUISHING THEOLOGICAL CONSERVATIVES FROM THEIR LIBERAL COUNTERPARTS; SHE IS DESCRIBING THOSE WHO PUT "WORLDLY CONFORMITY" FIRST AND GOD'S CAUSE SECOND.] class, whose influence has steadily retarded the progress of the work, will renounce the faith."--5T 463 (1885).
"To the conservative and compromising(her definition of conservative is totally different than the view people in the church consider today), these arguments seemed conclusive. But there was another class that did not so judge. The fact that these customs tended to bridge the chasm between Rome and the Reformation, was in their view a conclusive argument against retaining them. They looked upon them as badges of the slavery from which they had been delivered, and to which they had no disposition to return. They reasoned that God has in his Word established the regulations governing his worship, and that men are not at liberty to add to these or to detract from them. The very beginning of the great apostasy was in seeking to supplement the authority of God by that of the church. Rome began by enjoining what God had not forbidden, and she ended by forbidding what he had explicitly enjoined."
"When God raises up men to do His work, they are false to their trust if they allow their testimony to be shaped to please the minds of the unconsecrated. He will prepare men for the times. They will be humble, God-fearing men, not conservative, not policy men; but men who have moral independence and will move forward in the fear of the Lord. They will be kind, noble, courteous, yet they will not be swayed from the right path, but will proclaim the truth in righteousness whether men will hear or whether they will forbear."--Testimonies, Vol. 5, pp. 262-263.
Morality cannot be separated from religion. Not all conservative tradition received from educated persons and from the writings of outstanding people of the past are a safe guide for us in these last days, for the great struggle before us is such as the world has never seen."
"There are those who will, through hasty, unadvised moves, betray the cause of God into the enemy's power. There will be people who will seek to be revenged, who will become apostates and betray Christ in the person of His saints. All need to learn discretion; then there is danger on the other hand of being conservative, of giving away to the enemy in concession(see? her definition of conservative is totally different than what people mean by it now). Our brethren and sisters should be very cautious in this matter for the honor of God. . . . The two armies will stand distinct and separate, and this distinction will be so marked that many who shall be convinced of truth will come on the side of God's commandment-keeping people."--Manuscript 6, 1889.
"Most institutions of the kind are established upon different principles and are conservative, making it their object to meet the popular class halfway and to so shape their course that they will receive the greatest patronage and the most money. "
"Those temptations are most dangerous which come from the professed servants of God, and from our friends. When persons who are uniting with the world, yet claiming great piety and love, counsel the faithful workers for God to be less zealous and more conservative, our answer must be an appeal to the word of God. When they plead for union with those who have been our determined opposers, we should fear and shun them as decidedly as did Nehemiah. Those who would lead away from the old landmarks to form a connection with the ungodly, cannot be sent of Heaven. Whatever may have been their former position, their present course tends to unsettle the faith of God's people. "

i hope this clears things up a bit.
God bless, Mo

This post has been edited by mozart: May 28 2007, 08:48 PM