Corporate "worship" At 3abn, The Shelton Gang Rides Again! Options

[PaperTigers]

I guess I am compelled to come out of cyberspace and reveal my vocational identity. Yes I too am a church pastor - and a prison chaplain. I work with sex-offenders and sociopaths who are doing well-deserved time for their crimes.
SoulEspresso, I couldn't have said it all better myself. I too have church members who may be devastated when this all hits the fan. I have hesitated to deal with these issues for these very reasons. Now is the time though. At our next board meeting I will formally announce the termination of our broadcast of 3ABN radio and the clear reasons for doing so. (I inherited this station when I came to this church - never liked 3ABN for virtually the same reasons SoulEspresso expressed).
It's time for pastors to stand up and be counted. Unfortunately, I think that many of them are still in the dark about this crisis.

I commend both of you for taking a stand!
I hope that your church members understand and stand behind you!

[SoulEspresso]

SoulEspresso,

Welcome Back! and congratulations on having 3 churches!!!

You make some excellent points and I sure do hope folks here will take note of what you have said.

I haven't read clear through The 10 Commandments Twice Removed but I'd sure like to hear what problems you have found in it.

PB

Hey PB ,

(We all need more hugs, eh?)

*sigh* Well, my problems with the book (TCTR from here on) are basically threefold. (Since I haven't read it since last year, I'm sure one can find isolated statements in the book to the contrary to what I'm about to share--but I'm going with overall tone and impressions. I could go and drag up a copy, but I don't want to move. )

1) TCTR seems to assume that lawkeeping is the main point of the Christian life. The new covenant, which is basically the law written in the heart, is a lot more than those rules--it's a changed heart. Moreover, Paul says repeatedly that the law serves to drive us to Christ--it's holy and good and we should keep it, but our rightness comes from something else. Law isn't the be-all, end-all--Jesus is.

2) TCTR also spends a lot of time on Col. 2:14 ("blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross") trying to prove that the ten commandments were not nailed to the cross--only the ceremonial law. Well, the cross did render the ceremonial law obsolete--and of course the Sabbath still stands. But you don't get that from this text, you have to go elsewhere.

The "handwriting of ordinances" is actually a technical word in Greek that would translate to English as "debt-record." In other words, Col. 2:14 is about neither the ceremonial nor the moral law--it's about the record of our sins. The record of our sins was nailed to the cross--good news, eh?

This is sloppy scholarship--if the authors had used a current Bible dictionary there should have been no problem. A knowledgeable Bible scholar would get frustrated with the book in about two seconds for problems like this.

3) TCTR is an arrogant screed against other Christians. Is the seventh-day Sabbath biblical? Absolutely! Should we present it by saying, "We're right and you're wrong so there!"? I hope not.

This isn't just rhetorical. Some members in one of my churches took it upon themselves to mail a copy to every mailbox in the county. And so ... some of our evangelistic contacts immediately lost interest because they were so turned off--including an elder's mom. We have yet to get a single positive response from all those books.

TCTR is good in that it illuminates the seventh-day Sabbath. I'd give it to someone who wasn't an Adventist IF and ONLY IF they were specifically interested in the debate--in other words, it's only useful in the context of well-established relationships.

I'm all for sharing--but I'm even more for humility. Come to think of it, that seems to be the lack at 3ABN.

Boy, we're aren't we?

[Noahswife]

I commend both of you for taking a stand!
I hope that your church members understand and stand behind you!

We will keep you both in our prayers.

[watchbird]

I guess I am compelled to come out of cyberspace and reveal my vocational identity. Yes I too am a church pastor - and a prison chaplain. I work with sex-offenders and sociopaths who are doing well-deserved time for their crimes.
SoulEspresso, I couldn't have said it all better myself. I too have church members who may be devastated when this all hits the fan. I have hesitated to deal with these issues for these very reasons. Now is the time though. At our next board meeting I will formally announce the termination of our broadcast of 3ABN radio and the clear reasons for doing so. (I inherited this station when I came to this church - never liked 3ABN for virtually the same reasons SoulEspresso expressed).
It's time for pastors to stand up and be counted. Unfortunately, I think that many of them are still in the dark about this crisis.

............... Blessings upon you, Voktar of Zargon! May your tribe increase!

............ be with you as you meet with your board and prepare to instruct, warn, console, and help your parishioners to deal with their various emotions when they learn the things they need to know.

I applaud you for your brave and decisive stand.... ......

If Calvin had supplied us with a "hero" badge, I would award it to you at this time.... since he has not...... I'll present you with this "angel" instead....... ........

[Seraphim7]

I can understand this, can't you? Notice I didn't ask you to agree with it, only if you can't see why he might make this decision. Not everyone wants to take a side in every issue that comes along and whether this is a good thing or no is a moot point.

A pastor is repsonsible for leading his flock. Maybe this is the example he has decided to set. Without talking with him and understanding the reasoning, and doing so with an open mind one can not bash them for making what they feel is the best thing for the church. He might also bring it to the whole church in a business meeting format and see what his flock would do. Then of course he is bound by his conference offices expectations and has to consider that.

There are a myrid of reasons a pastor may make a decision like this. Did you ask him why? What was his response?

- FHB

No I can not. There is absolutely no acceptable reason for refusing her membership wherever she wanted to go. The actions of Danny, the conference president and any other individual who had any part in Linda being unable to move her membership is inexcusable. NO member should ever be turned away from church. Woman are ousted, to often, like no more than a sack of rotten apples when men seek to make examples of them. And other men, who don't have the stones, won't stand up and say this is not right are no better.

There is no excuse for any of them. As "leaders of their flocks" they should have been the first to say, "ye who are without sin cast the first stone". Not as an issue of judgement, but on principle. Showing love and mercy regardless of the foolish behavior of others should have been their first course of action. Not excuses for doing otherwise.

There was/is no reasonable excuse for denying this sister refuge... NONE, and those who did are cowards. And, if anyone has a problem with my saying so, not only you are welcome to tell them, you and they can PM me. Some of us do have the stones to stand up and say they are cowards.

Mrs. L. M. Josey aka Sera / Eze3:18

This post has been edited by seraph|m: Feb 12 2007, 10:55 PM

[Voktar of Zargon]

............... Blessings upon you, Voktar of Zargon! May your tribe increase!

............ be with you as you meet with your board and prepare to instruct, warn, console, and help your parishioners to deal with their various emotions when they learn the things they need to know.

I applaud you for your brave and decisive stand.... ......

If Calvin had supplied us with a "hero" badge, I would award it to you at this time.... since he has not...... I'll present you with this "angel" instead....... ........

Thankyou Watchbird (and Clay, Papertigers, Noah's wife). It feels good to be affirmed. Don't feel like much of a hero. Should have done this awhile ago. Just plain common sense with all the evidence that is in. Keep up the good work everybody, and don't let the apologists get you down.
Voktar

[sonshineonme]

Thankyou Watchbird (and Clay, Papertigers, Noah's wife). It feels good to be affirmed. Don't feel like much of a hero. Should have done this awhile ago. Just plain common sense with all the evidence that is in. Keep up the good work everybody, and don't let the apologists get you down.
Voktar

Voktar, you and Soul are among many who I'm sure will be making this statement more and more. Don't be hard on yourself. I find it's a journey for all of us - we have to take time to process what's happening and actually realize it's real and it's dangerous. It's of the devil and we have to act, not just sit still and do nothing. It give us an oppertunity to learn, grow and help one another.

I admire you both, take courage... for all who stand will face some sort of persecution. That is inevitable. You have been added to many prayer lists, you are an encouragment to many others, you may not see it, but believe me, you are.

Be bold, be brave, for the Lord they God is with you.
Praise the Lord. You are He are a majority.

[Hersheys99]

I too commend both of you as well. It sure restores a persons faith to see pastors speak up for right & not just go with the flow of things. Thank you both for standing up & being counted. I pray too that your congregation stands behind you as you do the right thing!

[SoulEspresso]

I guess I am compelled to come out of cyberspace and reveal my vocational identity. Yes I too am a church pastor - and a prison chaplain. I work with sex-offenders and sociopaths who are doing well-deserved time for their crimes.
SoulEspresso, I couldn't have said it all better myself. I too have church members who may be devastated when this all hits the fan. I have hesitated to deal with these issues for these very reasons. Now is the time though. At our next board meeting I will formally announce the termination of our broadcast of 3ABN radio and the clear reasons for doing so. (I inherited this station when I came to this church - never liked 3ABN for virtually the same reasons SoulEspresso expressed).
It's time for pastors to stand up and be counted. Unfortunately, I think that many of them are still in the dark about this crisis.

Well, there are a couple of dynamics at work.

A lot of our colleagues are loathe to speak against 3ABN publicly because so many people do come in off the street from watching it--two in the last two months in my district. While we don't like everything about the channel (present crisis aside), getting baptisms is hard to complain about.

And some pastors do love it--my predecessor in the district did his outreach by going door-to-door with petitions for getting 3ABN on local cable (or something like that, I'm not entirely sure). How I wish he hadn't but ...

The other problem is that our church hates scandal even more than most denominations do, and would prefer to sweep things under the rug. That's why this hasn't become more public. Right now, you have to be Internet-savvy to get the full picture. A lot of 3ABN fans, aren't. (I'm over-generalizing but it's true where I live.) Here you have a perfect storm: sex abuse + embezzlement + the most famous faces in Adventism.

So our official leadership will not talk about it publicly unless they have no other choice. At our last conference workers' meeting, our president made an unofficial call to us pastors to "start steering our people toward Hope Channel." The reason he gave? You can't get an official audited financial statement from 3ABN and the brethren are nervous.

Well, the brethren are nervous all right, but it's a heckuva lot more than no audited financial statements.

As for me, I don't know that it's much of a stand. If I speak, for example, from the pulpit, I'll tick a lot of people off, or at least confuse them. What I'd welcome from you guys is a suggestion on how to educate people away from the channel--if we have enough time before it all tears loose ...

This post has been edited by SoulEspresso: Feb 12 2007, 11:12 PM

[PeacefulBe]

No I can not. There is absolutely no acceptable reason for refusing her membership wherever she wanted to go. The actions of Danny, the conference president and any other individual who had any part in Linda being unable to move her membership is inexcusable. NO member should ever be turned away from church. Woman are ousted, to often, like no more than a sack of rotten apples when men seek to make examples of them. And other men, who don't have the stones, won't stand up and say this is not right are no better.

There is no excuse for any of them. As "leaders of their flocks" they should have been the first to say, "ye who are without sin cast the first stone". Not as an issue of judgement, but on principle. Showing love and mercy regardless of the foolish behavior of others should have been their first course of action. Not excuses for doing otherwise.

There was/is no reasonable excuse for denying this sister refuge... NONE, and those who did are cowards. And, if anyone has a problem with my saying so, not only you are welcome to tell them, you and they can PM me. Some of us do have the stones to stand up and say they are cowards.

Mrs. L. M. Josey aka Sera / Eze3:18

I like your muscle, Sera! And I'm standing in your corner on this for certain!

[wwjd]

WWJD, is that what you meant to say?

Thanks snoopy, no it isn't

If the above is true, that the board really wanted Linda to move on... why has Dan and John Lomacang been blocking her attempts at ministry? Linda was scheduled to speak at Barb Kerr's church when it was discovered John Lomacang had spoken to her pastor and discouraged him to the point that they backed out of the invitation.

You mean you are getting a taste of your own medicine? Some on this forum have mailed out letters against 3abn and have called pastors of churches where 3abn is going to be, to try to "change their minds"about the invitation. so, what's the difference?

[PeacefulBe]

SoulEspresso,
Thanks for your answer about TCTR. I'm really surprised that Shelly Quinn would have made such an error. I really thought she had a better understanding than that. I have appreciated what I have heard of her grasp of the original meanings of the words used by various Biblical writers. Now I am a little shaken about what I have heard from her.

Have you listened to much of 3abn radio? Is what you have heard so objectionable that you feel so strongly that it must be removed? If you are hearing error preached over those air waves, then we as a denomination are not properly being represented and it should, indeed, be removed.

I understand the conundrum - Can the GC continue to support a ministry that is doing the types of thing we are discussing here when that ministry is bringing souls into the churches? I would respond, do the ends justify the means? If a minister is having an affair but is a dynamic speaker and bringing people into the church, should he be removed from the position? I'm afraid the answer is pretty clear.

I have enjoyed watching 3abn for several years now and was very saddened when I read here long enough to realize that the image projected from the screen didn't represent the actions of some of those smiling out at us. If there is error being introduced on top of everything else, how can we continue to support it by our silence?

Is there any way to salvage the ministry or has the branch become so rotten that it will soon stop bearing fruit anyway?

PB

[wwjd]

Yes, that is the issue that I am most involved in. You brought up the Tommy allegations in your post. You said:
That is why I asked you if what you are saying is that the allegations against Tommy are lies.

Are they?

Sorry, I thought you realized. My post is about Tommy Shelton Sr. and Goldie, the parents.

[PeacefulBe]

You mean you are getting a taste of your own medicine? Some on this forum have mailed out letters against 3abn and have called pastors of churches where 3abn is going to be, to try to "change their minds"about the invitation. so, what's the difference?

wwjd, it appears that the kitty cats at 3abn started their character assassination emails and calls to block Linda's attempts way before this little mouse of a forum stood up and roared.

[Ralph]

Thanks snoopy, no it isn't
You mean you are getting a taste of your own medicine? Some on this forum have mailed out letters against 3abn and have called pastors of churches where 3abn is going to be, to try to "change their minds"about the invitation. so, what's the difference?

Thanks for admitting that someone from 3ABN did in fact try to prevent Linda from appearing