Corporate "worship" At 3abn, The Shelton Gang Rides Again! Options

[PeacefulBe]

Sorry, I thought you realized. My post is about Tommy Shelton Sr. and Goldie, the parents.

Ah, thanks for clearing that up for me. Although I have read here extensively I frankly don't remember reading anything negative about Danny's parents. If it is here I guess I missed it.

[wwjd]

Ah, thanks for clearing that up for me. Although I have read here extensively I frankly don't remember reading anything negative about Danny's parents. If it is here I guess I missed it.

Just look in the televangelist what it says about their poor mother. I hope I get a chance to stand in court and testify to the terrible lies that are there.

[sonshineonme]

Thanks for admitting that someone from 3ABN did in fact try to prevent Linda from appearing

You said it Ralph.

[SoulEspresso]

SoulEspresso,
Thanks for your answer about TCTR. I'm really surprised that Shelly Quinn would have made such an error. I really thought she had a better understanding than that. I have appreciated what I have heard of her grasp of the original meanings of the words used by various Biblical writers. Now I am a little shaken about what I have heard from her.

Have you listened to much of 3abn radio? Is what you have heard so objectionable that you feel so strongly that it must be removed? If you are hearing error preached over those air waves, then we as a denomination are not properly being represented and it should, indeed, be removed.

I understand the conundrum - Can the GC continue to support a ministry that is doing the types of thing we are discussing here when that ministry is bringing souls into the churches? I would respond, do the ends justify the means? If a minister is having an affair but is a dynamic speaker and bringing people into the church, should he be removed from the position? I'm afraid the answer is pretty clear.

I have enjoyed watching 3abn for several years now and was very saddened when I read here long enough to realize that the image projected from the screen didn't represent the actions of some of those smiling out at us. If there is error being introduced on top of everything else, how can we continue to support it by our silence?

Is there any way to salvage the ministry or has the branch become so rotten that it will soon stop bearing fruit anyway?

PB

*sigh* I don't know whether 3ABN can be salvaged or not. I hope it can, but it would have to be completely reorganized with new structure, leadership, accountability and transparency.

As far as error being taught ... yeah, I do think a lot of the book is error, but Adventism is a big tent--and there are vastly different viewpoints that can find a home there. I don't like the attitude, the sloppy scholarship, or the theology of TCTR; I think it's all to a greater or lesser degree unbiblical. The essential point of the book--that the Sabbath is part of the Ten Commandments and ought to be kept by Christians--was and is a correct point. The trouble is that a book which is being so widely promoted and distributed should have had more time and humility put into it.

In other words, I can cringe at a book like TCTR and wish it would go away; I can disinvite the authors to my church. It's a small problem that can be dealt with through correct Bible teaching. But sex abuse and embezzlement are criminal matters that require a bit more than cringing. They require people to stand up and say ... STOP.

Anyone know how much it costs to take out ads in the Review?

This post has been edited by SoulEspresso: Feb 13 2007, 12:36 AM

[PeacefulBe]

*sigh* I don't know whether 3ABN can be salvaged or not. I hope it can, but it would have to be completely reorganized with new structure, leadership, accountability and transparency.

As far as error being taught ... yeah, I do think a lot of the book is error, but Adventism is a big tent--and there are vastly different viewpoints that can find a home there. I don't like the attitude, the sloppy scholarship, or the theology of TCTR; I think it's all to a greater or lesser degree unbiblical. The essential point of the book--that the Sabbath is part of the Ten Commandments and ought to be kept by Christians--was and is a correct point. The trouble is that a book which is being so widely promoted and distributed should have had more time and humility put into it.

In other words, I can cringe at a book like TCTR and wish it would go away; I can disinvite the authors to my church. It's a small problem that can be dealt with through correct Bible teaching. But sex abuse and embezzlement are criminal matters that require a bit more than cringing. They require people to stand up and say ... STOP.
Anyone know how much it costs to take out ads in the Review?

AMEN!

[Fran]

Sorry, I thought you realized. My post is about Tommy Shelton Sr. and Goldie, the parents.

WWJD;

I can read into your writing that you have a deep love for Tommy Sr. & Goldie Shelton. They must have been very special to you in your life. I am glad you had a time to share with them. Pass the family stories down to the next generation. When someone is gone, there are those who will never meet them. It is important that you keep them alive in the younger hearts.

A great way to do this is through a family tree and making that tree grow. Ancestry.com can help with the software and the data. It is so exciting to find them in the Federal Census! Following ancestors through the "Trail of Tears" is amazing. You realize the rough roads they traveled.

It has done my heart good to hear you speak through your love for them.

[Ralph]

Just look in the televangelist what it says about their poor mother. I hope I get a chance to stand in court and testify to the terrible lies that are there.

Are you saying that you want to refute some parts of a fictional story in court?

[Voktar of Zargon]

Well, there are a couple of dynamics at work.

A lot of our colleagues are loathe to speak against 3ABN publicly because so many people do come in off the street from watching it--two in the last two months in my district. While we don't like everything about the channel (present crisis aside), getting baptisms is hard to complain about.

And some pastors do love it--my predecessor in the district did his outreach by going door-to-door with petitions for getting 3ABN on local cable (or something like that, I'm not entirely sure). How I wish he hadn't but ...

The other problem is that our church hates scandal even more than most denominations do, and would prefer to sweep things under the rug. That's why this hasn't become more public. Right now, you have to be Internet-savvy to get the full picture. A lot of 3ABN fans, aren't. (I'm over-generalizing but it's true where I live.) Here you have a perfect storm: sex abuse + embezzlement + the most famous faces in Adventism.

So our official leadership will not talk about it publicly unless they have no other choice. At our last conference workers' meeting, our president made an unofficial call to us pastors to "start steering our people toward Hope Channel." The reason he gave? You can't get an official audited financial statement from 3ABN and the brethren are nervous.

Well, the brethren are nervous all right, but it's a heckuva lot more than no audited financial statements.

As for me, I don't know that it's much of a stand. If I speak, for example, from the pulpit, I'll tick a lot of people off, or at least confuse them. What I'd welcome from you guys is a suggestion on how to educate people away from the channel--if we have enough time before it all tears loose ...

Soul,
No easy fix for this one probably. Decades of influence make it a systemic problem. Just some thoughts: (I share these for pastors who may be lurking too - I suspect you are pretty sharp Soul and I probably need advice from you too).
Anyway, certainly pulpit declamations are inappropriate. This would only inflame the controversy on the local level and be outside the bounds of pulpit propriety – especially regarding visitors or non-Adventists. Biblical preaching of principles that can be applied to the situation should help. I'm preaching a sermon series on the life of Solomon, and dealing with the dynamics of his fall from grace should be telling.
One on one sharing with select members who can be trusted should help to establish a levee against the flood.
In my case I am compelled to open the can of worms before my church leaders in a board meeting because we are broadcasting 3ABN all over our city. There are a mountain of accusations from a mountain of witnesses. Will there be heated discussions and hurt feelings? Probably. Obviously grace is needed. However, if only to avoid the appearance of evil we should distance ourselves from this ministry. Will it survive? Only God knows.
Finally let us promote healthy ministries that are more fully affiliated with the church and it’s systems of accountability.
Voktar

[Ralph]

As for me, I don't know that it's much of a stand. If I speak, for example, from the pulpit, I'll tick a lot of people off, or at least confuse them. What I'd welcome from you guys is a suggestion on how to educate people away from the channel--if we have enough time before it all tears loose ...

Remember, "Accentuate the positive." You can easily mention something you saw on Hopetv. My wife is saddened if she misses a couple of their programs.

[PeacefulBe]

Finally let us promote healthy ministries that are more fully affiliated with the church and it’s systems of accountability.
Voktar

This is a very good point.

PB

[SoulEspresso]

Soul,
No easy fix for this one probably. Decades of influence make it a systemic problem. Just some thoughts: (I share these for pastors who may be lurking too - I suspect you are pretty sharp Soul and I probably need advice from you too).
Anyway, certainly pulpit declamations are inappropriate. This would only inflame the controversy on the local level and be outside the bounds of pulpit propriety – especially regarding visitors or non-Adventists. Biblical preaching of principles that can be applied to the situation should help. I'm preaching a sermon series on the life of Solomon, and dealing with the dynamics of his fall from grace should be telling.
One on one sharing with select members who can be trusted should help to establish a levee against the flood.
In my case I am compelled to open the can of worms before my church leaders in a board meeting because we are broadcasting 3ABN all over our city. There are a mountain of accusations from a mountain of witnesses. Will there be heated discussions and hurt feelings? Probably. Obviously grace is needed. However, if only to avoid the appearance of evil we should distance ourselves from this ministry. Will it survive? Only God knows.
Finally let us promote healthy ministries that are more fully affiliated with the church and it’s systems of accountability.
Voktar

Man, I'll be praying for you. When it comes to meetings like that, I'd rather get a faceful of pepper spray (having had experience with both ...)

But God is still on His throne, and is present even more in these situations than at any other time.

You're right about the pulpit stuff. I was toying with the idea of a sermon on idolatry in today's world, but I thought it might be too bold. Most of my elders in one church are on the same page as I am. In the other two, they have no idea about this stuff.

As far as Hope TV goes, I better get it ... wish it were on Dish Network already.

[sonshineonme]

Soul,
No easy fix for this one probably. Decades of influence make it a systemic problem. Just some thoughts: (I share these for pastors who may be lurking too - I suspect you are pretty sharp Soul and I probably need advice from you too).
Anyway, certainly pulpit declamations are inappropriate. This would only inflame the controversy on the local level and be outside the bounds of pulpit propriety – especially regarding visitors or non-Adventists. Biblical preaching of principles that can be applied to the situation should help. I'm preaching a sermon series on the life of Solomon, and dealing with the dynamics of his fall from grace should be telling. One on one sharing with select members who can be trusted should help to establish a levee against the flood.
In my case I am compelled to open the can of worms before my church leaders in a board meeting because we are broadcasting 3ABN all over our city. There are a mountain of accusations from a mountain of witnesses. Will there be heated discussions and hurt feelings? Probably. Obviously grace is needed. However, if only to avoid the appearance of evil we should distance ourselves from this ministry. Will it survive? Only God knows.
Finally let us promote healthy ministries that are more fully affiliated with the church and it’s systems of accountability.
Voktar

Voktar, funny you should mention this bible character....I was at a womens retreat this past fall, and a good friend of mine was the speaker for the weekend, and she covered the story of Solomon (Titled "My Least Favorite Bible Character") and the contrasting story of Joseph ("My Favorite Bible Character"). I could not help but think of DS as a Solomon-type as she spoke...the more she spoke, the more I saw it. I saw Linda in Josephs story! I was not the only one. Another friend at the table, who I was not sitting near during the first couple meetings, but talked to after, turned to me and said "This story of Solomon reminds me of DS and Joseph's story of Linda". Both of us were thinking this during the meetings, not knowing the other was. My friend who made this comment knows both Linda and Danny personally as well. I think these bible stories tell us much about human nature, and the stories never grow old or non-effective/applicable, do they? My friend the speaker, did not even know at the time of the 3abn mess, so she had no motive other than good lessons of characters from the word as these were her personal favorites/least favorites and why sermons. God works in mysterious ways! She knows about the 3abn mess now as I shared with her afterwards.

[watchbird]

Well, there are a couple of dynamics at work.

A lot of our colleagues are loathe to speak against 3ABN publicly because so many people do come in off the street from watching it--two in the last two months in my district. While we don't like everything about the channel (present crisis aside), getting baptisms is hard to complain about.

As Voktar mentioned, there are doubtless other pastors with some of these same conditions and questions, so let's examine this in some detail.

And some pastors do love it--my predecessor in the district did his outreach by going door-to-door with petitions for getting 3ABN on local cable (or something like that, I'm not entirely sure). How I wish he hadn't but ...

Perhaps the first question is whether or not HOPE is currently also available in your locality, so you can ease your members over to HOPE on existing facilities. Since you mention local cable, I tend to think that this may not be the case.

Another "first question" I would have is.... are you the only SDA pastor in the cable company service area? If not, then it would be well, I think, for you to meet one on one with each of the other area church pastors... whether of the same conference or not.... and discuss things with them before moving too far unilaterally. Not that I think it would be absolutely necessary for you to all see eye to eye, but I'm sure you could each be more effective if you did... and certainly, for what I am about to propose, it would give a lot better chance of my suggestion being successful.

If I am reading you correctly, you are at this point embarrassed that your church members engaged in a campaign to get a station on cable that now you are embarrassed about. So what I am suggesting is that after suitable preparation on your part that you pay a visit to the cable company top decision maker "hat in hand" as the saying goes, leading off with something like, "I am very embarrassed over the situation that I find myself in... and I'd like to share that with you.... starting was an apology." And then, with the Lord guiding your words and attitudes, recount for him the history of your church's involvement in getting 3abn on his cable company.... how things have developed so that in your opinion it no longer represents the ideals for which your church, the SDA church, stand for, and how much that distresses you. As Ralph has said, stress the positive as much as possible, and move your discussion with him to the place where you and he are exploring together what it would take to get HOPE TV added to his lineup... either as an addition or as a replacement for 3abn.

Now, this same kind of one-on-one exploratory discussions, is, I think, the place to start among your church members, beginning with those whom you have reason to think are already somewhat concerned and are thus ready to learn more of what there is to be concerned about. And I would recommend here beginning with your closest friends in local church leadership, trusting that as you expand the circle which share your concerns they will also have ideas of how to go about expanding that circle even further.

The other problem is that our church hates scandal even more than most denominations do, and would prefer to sweep things under the rug. That's why this hasn't become more public. Right now, you have to be Internet-savvy to get the full picture. A lot of 3ABN fans, aren't. (I'm over-generalizing but it's true where I live.) Here you have a perfect storm: sex abuse + embezzlement + the most famous faces in Adventism.

Here is where the printed page will be of great help to you. Starting back at least two years before the ouster of Linda, Adventist Today ran some articles which raised questions regarding 3abn's use of finances and at least hinted at other problems. You can also print off selected posts from BSDA and from the new save3abn.com site. Be sure to leave url and date information on them so those with whom you share such printouts would be able to check them out more fully on their computers. In all of this, start where people are, and lead them gently rather than giving them so much all at once that they simply cannot emotionally or psychologically process it all.

So our official leadership will not talk about it publicly unless they have no other choice. At our last conference workers' meeting, our president made an unofficial call to us pastors to "start steering our people toward Hope Channel." The reason he gave? You can't get an official audited financial statement from 3ABN and the brethren are nervous.

Well, the brethren are nervous all right, but it's a heckuva lot more than no audited financial statements.

Ah.... but it is a beginning! And a very important one. For the official word from conference presidents and above have been to stay neutral... don't rock the boat... don't give any support to anything that might be construed as "taking sides" against 3abn. But THIS now... gives you a solid rock on which to stand. And especially does it give you a strong platform from which to resist any attempt by 3abn to have one of their "money raising rallies" at your church... as well as a platform from which to work with your members one-on-one, warning them away from continuing to support 3abn financially.

So... in view of the importance of this.....

I hereby present your Conference President an honorary angel award anonymously and in absentia.... .....

May he be richly blessed for making this first step... however small... in untying the hands of his pastors so they may do the work of guiding and warning their flocks to which they are called by God Himself..........

As for me, I don't know that it's much of a stand. If I speak, for example, from the pulpit, I'll tick a lot of people off, or at least confuse them. What I'd welcome from you guys is a suggestion on how to educate people away from the channel--if we have enough time before it all tears loose ...

...
A lot of what needs to be done will need to be done behind the scenes... one-on-one... or in small group planning sessions.... or luncheons.... or house to house visits... where you can gently warn your people a few at a time and as they can bear, that all is not what it seems on the glowing TV screen. There are still good programs on 3abn... so for those who have no way of moving immediately to HOPE TV, your mission can be to warn them away from the Dannyworship sessions, and the Pentecostal preachers of 3abn.... pointing them to the programming which is still sound and wholesome spiritual nourishment.

As Ralph says....

Remember, "Accentuate the positive." You can easily mention something you saw on Hopetv. My wife is saddened if she misses a couple of their programs.

From the pulpit, you can do open promotionals for HOPE TV... If you do not have access to it in your area, and if it looks impossible or at least a long way out before you can get it on your cable system, you can at least get a satellite capable of receiving it for yourself and your church... and encourage as many of your church members who can afford it to do also. And you could even have a campaign in the church for providing HOPE TV access to other members who cannot do it for themselves. You could also utilize it, either live broadcast or taped broadcasts, as features for special meetings or small group meetings. You could, for example, add tapes of programs to your church lending library, thus introducing your members to, and whetting their appetites for, more HOPE TV programming. And don't forget, HOPE is not the ONLY "new kid on the block". With the dish that brings in HOPE, you also get Loma Linda Broadcasting Network, which is maturing and adding new and valuable programming to their lineup of programs.

You do not have to speak against 3abn publicly or "from the pulpit", but you can see that it is not promoted from either the pulpit or the literature racks in your foyer. One church I've been told about recently, has already taken just these steps, plus actively promoting HOPE TV. Some churches have also included material explaining the situation with 3abn either in their bulletin inserts, or in the literature racks or tables in the foyer. Again, if you do this, don't run too far too fast with what information you give out. Another idea that would go along with this would be sure there is ample promotional and program material on HOPE TV available in the foyer... and possibly even put your church members names on HOPE's mailing list.

I hope this helps. I hope others will also have some specific creative ideas to add. And I'm sure we would all love to hear reports of how things work out for you and any others who are moving in this direction.

One on one sharing with select members who can be trusted should help to establish a levee against the flood.
In my case I am compelled to open the can of worms before my church leaders in a board meeting because we are broadcasting 3ABN all over our city. There are a mountain of accusations from a mountain of witnesses. Will there be heated discussions and hurt feelings? Probably. Obviously grace is needed. However, if only to avoid the appearance of evil we should distance ourselves from this ministry. Will it survive? Only God knows.
Finally let us promote healthy ministries that are more fully affiliated with the church and it’s systems of accountability.
Voktar

I would strongly suggest that you do a lot of one-on-one in advance before that meeting of your church board. A lot of advance discussion can not only make sure you have enough who see the same necessity of taking action as you do, but it can also help to blunt the attacks of those who may never completely agree with you, but who will be much more likely to go along with you if they have had their chance to "bend your ear" in a private setting before going to the public meeting.

[Johann]

As Voktar mentioned, there are doubtless other pastors with some of these same conditions and questions, so let's examine this in some detail.


Perhaps the first question is whether or not HOPE is currently also available in your locality, so you can ease your members over to HOPE on existing facilities. Since you mention local cable, I tend to think that this may not be the case.

- - -

I will not copy all of Wtchbord's excellent sugestions to proclaim the truth.

Even if you are not able to follow this in all details, many might form her suggestions into a working outline for their own activites, and then work out the details as you meet the challenges. Don't forget to let God guide you, and He will bless your efforts! Remember that HOPE is the channel of your own church. 3ABN is not.

[awesumtenor]

I can understand this, can't you? Notice I didn't ask you to agree with it, only if you can't see why he might make this decision. Not everyone wants to take a side in every issue that comes along and whether this is a good thing or no is a moot point.

Having Linda Shelton at one's church is not "taking a side"... and it is ludicrous that you and others choose to spin it this way. You keep taking out of both sides of your mouth on this; saying aloud you have no problem with her continuing ministry... and then saying under your breath "as long as no one knows about it". She is a member in good and regular standing in the Seventh-day Adventist church... so why should any pastor be concerned about "taking a side"? Is the pastor in question trying to get 3ABN to pack up the dog and pony show and bring it to his church at some yet to be determined date in the future? That is the only plausible reason for him to fear allowing Linda to come there; making Danny angry... not to mention that in saying she couldn't come because he didn't want to take a side... he has already taken a side...so no; I can't understand this...

A pastor is repsonsible for leading his flock. Maybe this is the example he has decided to set.

Then he has failed and abdicated his responsibility, IMO... the example he sets is one of cowardice; he hears the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, dulcimer, and all kinds of music and immediately prostrates himself before nebuchadnezzar's image. He has given the example of the hireling... not of the Good Shepherd. That kind of example a flock could do without.

In His service,
Mr. J