Save3abn Website Uses Blackmail Tactics, 3abn better not go to Court! Options

[Snoopy]

So, my question is to you, how and why would you just pick out these few things that appears to make 3abn look bad? And then, by doing so, you make Linda look just as bad.

And my question to you is this: With all due respect, just how much do you really know about financial issues and property taxes??? Speaking of transparency, is finance part of the theological seminary curriculum? The whole case makes 3ABN look bad. It makes them look dishonest. What a wonderful Christian witness - a religious non-profit organization that declares itself exempt from the laws of the land.

Study the budget, study the by-laws, study the personnel manual, study the comprhensive planning dept docs, study their building and land-use issues, but the most important? The budget. Follow the money.

You are assuming there is a budget to follow...

[LaurenceD]

What a wonderful Christian witness - a religious non-profit organization that declares itself exempt from the laws of the land.

Of course, it was found to be neither religious or not for profit.

You are assuming there is a budget to follow...

Has to be, has to be. The auditors get their numbers from somewhere. Even if it's one man's checkbook, or bank statements, or pocket book, study that. Follow the money by all means.

"His Life is and Open Book."

[Richard Sherwin]

It is still a donor however. That is money going to lawyers that could be going into the spreading of the gosple. My guess is that there is a certain board member from Minnisota that is footing the bill, money that is being wasted on lawyers when all it would take to resolve the issues is tranparency on Danny Sheltons part. And a willingness to be open with his critics. These issues are all in Danny's hands, he is the one that can have this resolved without going to the courts.

Richard

LaurenceD, 3ABN is NOT paying for litigation out of any donated money that 3ABN has received from donors. It is being paid for by one person who has taken it upon himself/herself to pay for the whole litigation process.

[Snoopy]

Has to be, has to be. The auditors get their numbers from somewhere. Even if it's one man's checkbook, or bank statements, or pocket book, study that. Follow the money by all means.

"His Life is and Open Book."

Sorry, but I respectfully disagree. There most certainly does not "have to be" a budget. I don't think you are understanding the true meaning of the term "budget":

budg·et /ˈbʌdʒɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[buhj-it] –noun
1. an estimate, often itemized, of expected income and expense for a given period in the future.
2. a plan of operations based on such an estimate.

An individual, a family unit, a church, a corporation can easily have money coming in and going out without any type of logical plan for the use of the resources. A budget process assesses what is expected to come in over a given period of time and what is expected to be spent, AND ON WHAT, over that same period of time. A budgeting process is a carefully determined plan as to how resources are to be used. When a true budget is prepared and implemented, what actually happens is then compared to what was budgeted. This is a basic internal control.

When a corporation releases its earnings, the actual results are always compared to what was planned, or BUDGETED. Without a budget, it is impossible to know if one is overspending.

And just for the record, auditors do NOT audit a BUDGET!!!!!!!!!

This post has been edited by Snoopy: Feb 28 2007, 01:04 AM

[LaurenceD]

Ah, they most certainly do. I presume these are state auditors from Illinois, but maybe IRS as well. In fact, state auditors study all budget ammendments too, and minutes of all budget ordinances and resolutions requiring a $$ transaction. Many organizations are required by law to follow a budget process.

Not sure if that applies to NFP organizations. But, I know what you mean, they're real job is squaring up the receipts and transactions...making sure the revenues and expenses correlate.

I actually have a copy of the bar codes manual for our state--the very law book of gov't financial operations.

[Snoopy]

Ah, they most certainly do. I presume these are state auditors from Illinois, but maybe IRS as well. In fact, state auditors study all budget ammendments too, and minutes of all budget ordinances and resolutions requiring a $$ transaction. Many organizations are required by law to follow a budget process.

Not sure if that applies to NFP organizations. But, I know what you mean, they're real job is squaring up the receipts and transactions...making sure the revenues and expenses correlate.

I actually have a copy of the bar codes manual for our state--the very law book of gov't financial operations.

No, they don't!! And, "you presume"???? You said it yourself...."state auditors study all budget ammendments..." To "study" something is not to "audit" it!!! Of course, if you have a copy of the bar codes manual for your state you must be an audit expert! Just for the record, "making sure the revenues and expenses correlate" is a very simplistic view of the basic matching principle of accounting....but I'm sure you know that...

Also, I'm sure you meant to say that the 3ABN auditors in question are neither state auditors or IRS auditors. They are completely unrelated to any government entity, but are actually a private firm...but, you knew that, too.

And, "they're real job is squaring up the receipts and transactions..." is a VERY srong indicator that you are painfully unfamiliar with what a financial auditor does...it is just a bit more complicated than that...

But I'm not going to argue with you about it anymore. Think what you want. But you might want to gain a better understanding of a term before you throw it around...and then insist that you know what you're talking about...

This post has been edited by Snoopy: Feb 28 2007, 02:13 AM

[Snoopy]

sorry...duplicate post

This post has been edited by Snoopy: Feb 28 2007, 02:11 AM

[LaurenceD]

Well, not sure where your're from, but here, with the several multi-multi-multi-million dollar municipal organizations I work for, the first thing the auditor asks for is the minutes of all financial board-approved transactions. Then They ask for the budget. They "study" both of these. Then they ask for the reciepts, bank statements, checks, payrolls, etc. etc., including contacting venders at the other end. Our organizations are required by law to have a balanced budget. Everything has to square up, sometimes every line item--if so earmarked. At the end of the audit, certain officers meet with the auditors and we listen to their final reports and recommendations.

Like I said, I'm not sure what rules apply to NFP organizations like 3abn, but, I can't imagine the state wasn't the lead agency in the audit report referred to in the PDF file noahswife linked. Could be wrong though. This was a challenge to state and federal laws that regulate the organization. Auditors can be anyone from anywhere though--independent, working for gov't by contract, or actual gov't employees. Our team of independent auditors are always accompanied by a state rep that oversees the process.

But, you're right. It's all beside the point. I was just responding to your general statement that budgets don't get audited. They do here!

[Aletheia]

Isn't this the same case that 3abn appealed and is in the court of appeals now? And isn't this the case that many sda leaders and leaders of other denominations were interested in because the outcome could affect every church, church school, religious facility, christian networks, etc. etc.

Yes it is. There's a rather interesting and informative article which was published by Liberty magazine about this a couple years back. Liberty takes a stance, and portrays the issues, and cites laws and precidents very differently then most of those posting here. For that reason, I believe it is pertinent, and even a good rebuttal to the accusers of 3ABN regarding the tax case.

I haven't seen the article ever posted on BSDA, so for those interested:

Three Angels Broadcasting Network is the realized dream of Danny Shelton and his wife, Linda. Today 3ABN, as it is known, is a 24-hour Christian television/satellite and radio network that began in 1984 when Danny was impressed to build a religious television station that would reach the world. From Thompsonville, Illinois, its ministry now reaches across North, Central, and South America, Europe, the Middle East, Africa, Asia, and Australia.

During the small hours of that November 1984 morning, a sleepless Danny Shelton was impressed to start a television network to serve his faith. But a more unlikely candidate than this Seventh-day Adventist layperson would be difficult to find. With only a high school education he was a carpenter who had neither money nor property.

Today 3ABN operates a religious television network and is active in other evangelistic and missionary activities. Not only does it maintain a pastoral staff on site, but its evangelistic team is involved in direct evangelism resulting in many baptisms, including 15,000 in India and similar numbers in Russia in recent years.

Even though all of 3ABN’s programming is religious and designed to be consistent with the teachings of the Adventist Church, the Illinois Department of Revenue and the elementary and high school districts (Thompsonville Community High School District No. 112 and Thompsonville School District No. 62) now claim that because it is a television facility, its operation is secular. So 3ABN is in a legal challenge with the Illinois taxing authorities, the ultimate outcome of which may well have a major impact on religious ministries not only in Illinois but across the country. But Danny and Linda Shelton, the 3ABN staff, and its millions of viewers all believe God is on their side and will make the difference in their struggle against state and local governmental authorities.

All 50 states and the federal government provide tax exemptions for charitable organizations, including churches. The United States Supreme Court has observed that “few concepts are more deeply embedded in the fabric of our national life, beginning with pre-Revolutionary colonial times, than for the government to exercise at the very least this kind of benevolent neutrality toward churches and religious exercise generally so long as none was favored over others and none suffered interference.”1 But the Illinois Department of Revenue both attempts to limit the plain wording of the exemption statute and ignores its constitutional obligation of religious neutrality......

It's rather lengthy. To read the entire article, go here:

LIBERTY - a magazine of religious freedom - "How Religious Was My Exemption?"

This post has been edited by Aletheia: Feb 28 2007, 05:13 AM

[Johann]

I find it interesting that at one time 3ABN relied on God for their protection. They braged how God had protect from this and that.

Have they lost their faith? Why are they turning to a locked down compound and laywers instead of God for protection? Or could it be their is sin in the camp from the leaders? Are the leaders afriad of God judgement because of their sin?

Yes, that was back then when Linda had her daily devotions on 3ABN. On MSDAOL there was a discussion of the present prayer patterns at 3ABN. Seems like a new theology had developed where you tell god what is expected of him, and you back it up with dollars and the 14 lawyers.

Do we understand what Jesus meant when He wondered if He would find faith on earth when He returns? He also said that men would be "marrying and giving in marriage, until the day . . ." The Sheltons seem to do their part in fulfilling that prediction, you have to give them credit for that.

[Aletheia]

QUOTESalli Feb 27 2007, 12:54 AM:
I find it interesting that at one time 3ABN relied on God for their protection. They braged how God had protect from this and that.

Have they lost their faith? Why are they turning to a locked down compound and laywers instead of God for protection? Or could it be their is sin in the camp from the leaders? Are the leaders afriad of God judgement because of their sin?

Yes, that was back then when Linda had her daily devotions on 3ABN. On MSDAOL there was a discussion of the present prayer patterns at 3ABN. Seems like a new theology had developed where you tell god what is expected of him, and you back it up with dollars and the 14 lawyers.

Do we understand what Jesus meant when He wondered if He would find faith on earth when He returns? He also said that men would be "marrying and giving in marriage, until the day . . ." The Sheltons seem to do their part in fulfilling that prediction, you have to give them credit for that.

A locked down compound?

Please cite the evidence to support this?

You know, Noah trusted in God for his protection, and built a boat. He didn't sit there and trust God would save him from the flood without his cooperation...

What I find so sad and unreasonable in all this, is that none of you, not a one, thinks that the "alleged" victims of Tommy Shelton should trust in God for their protection and the protection of others, without doing anything.

Not a one of you accusers of 3ABn thinks Linda Shelton should trust in God to protect her and her interests and reputation without you all becoming involved and seeking public redress, and feeling you need to defend her.

And not a one of you accusing 3ABN, who trust in God, believes that if these accusations are true He can bring down 3ABN, without your assistance and public exposure and works in this behalf.

[And where are God's people ever told to destroy a ministry, no matter how at fault or in error or sin you believe them to be? Who is the "cult" buster?]

As far as prayers and telling God what is expected of him according to personal judgemnts goes? Look to the recent thread here and some of the public prayers here made by those who heard about 3Abns leaders joining together in fasting and prayer.

"Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocricy."-- Jesus Christ

"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. "-- Jesus Christ

This post has been edited by Aletheia: Feb 28 2007, 06:02 AM

[Fran]

Yes it is. There's a rather interesting and informative article which was published by Liberty magazine about this a couple years back. Liberty takes a stance, and portrays the issues, and cites laws and precidents very differently then most of those posting here. For that reason, I believe it is pertinent, and even a good rebuttal to the accusers of 3ABN regarding the tax case.

I haven't seen the article ever posted on BSDA, so for those interested:
It's rather lengthy. To read the entire article, go here:

LIBERTY - a magazine of religious freedom - "How Religious Was My Exemption?"

I have read and posted this article before on another forum.

Question: Do you occasionally work for Religious Liberty? A "Yes" or "No" answer would be nice.

[Richard Sherwin]

If God allows this ministry to be destroyed I think you will have to look no farther than Danny. He is the one who has brought on his woes, not the posters on here. Me thinks, Aletheia, that you give too much credit to Danny's critics. When a person is a Dannynite it's hard to see out past the edge of his shadow to what is really happening.

Richard

A locked down compound?

Please cite the evidence to support this?

You know, Noah trusted in God for his protection, and built a boat. He didn't sit there and trust God would save him from the flood without his cooperation...

What I find so sad and unreasonable in all this, is that none of you, not a one, thinks that the "alleged" victims of Tommy Shelton should trust in God for their protection and the protection of others, without doing anything.

Not a one of you accusers of 3ABn thinks Linda Shelton should trust in God to protect her and her interests and reputation without you all becoming involved and seeking public redress, and feeling you need to defend her.

And not a one of you accusing 3ABN, who trust in God, believes that if these accusations are true He can bring down 3ABN, without your assistance and public exposure and works in this behalf.

[And where are God's people ever told to destroy a ministry, no matter how at fault or in error or sin you believe them to be? Who is the "cult" buster?]

As far as prayers and telling God what is expected of him according to personal judgemnts goes? Look to the recent thread here and some of the public prayers here made by those who heard about 3Abns leaders joining together in fasting and prayer.

"Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocricy."-- Jesus Christ

"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. "-- Jesus Christ

[Johann]

A locked down compound?

Please cite the evidence to support this?

Danny Shelton has repeatedly told me I have Alzheimer's. Since your memory is worse than mine, what do you think is your affliction? We may have to use a notepad when we do our reading. Then we do not need to demand so many repetitions.

You know, Noah trusted in God for his protection, and built a boat. He didn't sit there and trust God would save him from the flood without his cooperation...

What I find so sad and unreasonable in all this, is that none of you, not a one, thinks that the "alleged" victims of Tommy Shelton should trust in God for their protection and the protection of others, without doing anything.

Not a one of you accusers of 3ABn thinks Linda Shelton should trust in God to protect her and her interests and reputation without you all becoming involved and seeking public redress, and feeling you need to defend her.

And not a one of you accusing 3ABN, who trust in God, believes that if these accusations are true He can bring down 3ABN, without your assistance and public exposure and works in this behalf.

[And where are God's people ever told to destroy a ministry, no matter how at fault or in error or sin you believe them to be? Who is the "cult" buster?]

As far as prayers and telling God what is expected of him according to personal judgemnts goes? Look to the recent thread here and some of the public prayers here made by those who heard about 3Abns leaders joining together in fasting and prayer.

"Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocricy."-- Jesus Christ

"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. "-- Jesus Christ

Would you say this is the reason why Danny Shelton never prayed in public while Linda was with him? But why has he started doing that now? You wouldn't call him a hypocrite for that, would you?

[Panama_Pete]

A locked down compound?

Please cite the evidence to support this?

If Johann went to the 3ABN campus during campmeeting, and they threatened to arrest him if he did not leave, then for Johann, it may indeed be a locked-down compound.

In addition, it might also have the look and feel of a locked-down compound to other people here, such as Salli, who may have heard that account, along with the stories being related of the beefed-up electronic monitoring at 3ABN.

I, too, suspect 3ABN is circling the wagons. Yes, Aletheia, you will likely demand to know the size of those wagons and the names of the horses. So, picture wagons like this one: