Save3abn Website Uses Blackmail Tactics, 3abn better not go to Court! Options

[Bystander]

Aletheia,

I would love to see a follow-up of this article in the light of the 46 page ruling the judge handed down.
I personally think with a little tighter legal and accounting controls 3abn would have won this case hands down, what is interesting is that the judge in her ruling told 3abn what they need to fix if they were listening, but i highly doubt that they have fixed those problems( has a side note maybe this had more to due with linda and that lawyer from the board leaving then we know at this time.)

ERik

Erik, it is my understanding that one major item than contributed to the ruling was a huge oversite and the attorney's side and the judges side. If I get this correctly, somehow, the judge was given the board records from the beginning years of 3abn when only 6 people were on the board. In the very first stages those people were Danny, Linda, Kenny , his wife and the boys mother and stepfather. (I could have the stepfather wrong) The board expanded quickly over time and different changes were made but anyway, the judge based some of her decisions on what she thought was a family board. Somebody dropped the ball all the way around. Since the ruling had already been handed down, there was no alternative but to appeal which they did and are, but these kinds of cases take years. As you can see the other case was in 2004, so it has already been 3 years. 3abn did at least 1 program on this situation and maybe 2 because the final outcome could affect religious organizations everywhere as far as tax status goes. Contrary to what some are trying to imply, this had nothing to do with "Danny won't pay his taxes." That is ludicrous. It is about a peon town trying to tax religious entities that had not been taxed before.
If Danny was just trying to get out of tax paying, 3abn could have moved to Marion, IL, about 18 miles from T'ville, where the mayor offered them all kinds of incentives to come there. He guaranteed they would be treated "right" as other ministries and church schools in the area are. In other words, they wouldn't have had a tax problem there. He welcomed the jobs that 3abn provides and realized that at times, people come from all parts of the world to see or be on 3abn and that generates business for the whole town. T'vill on the other hand, appears to be a town of farmers that doesn't want outsiders, much less SDA's.

[LaurenceD]

Thanks for the clarification. That's good news indeed. BTW, What is the minimum wage in Illinois, and are there corporate breaks for having employees hired as less than full-time?

[Richard Sherwin]

A peon town? Is that the attitude of 3abn toward Thomsonville? Would this be what Jesus would say? That's appalling. And the little dig at farmers? With that sort of thinking I don't blame them for not wanting ya'll there. Disgusting.

Richard

Erik, it is my understanding that one major item than contributed to the ruling was a huge oversite and the attorney's side and the judges side. If I get this correctly, somehow, the judge was given the board records from the beginning years of 3abn when only 6 people were on the board. In the very first stages those people were Danny, Linda, Kenny , his wife and the boys mother and stepfather. (I could have the stepfather wrong) The board expanded quickly over time and different changes were made but anyway, the judge based some of her decisions on what she thought was a family board. Somebody dropped the ball all the way around. Since the ruling had already been handed down, there was no alternative but to appeal which they did and are, but these kinds of cases take years. As you can see the other case was in 2004, so it has already been 3 years. 3abn did at least 1 program on this situation and maybe 2 because the final outcome could affect religious organizations everywhere as far as tax status goes. Contrary to what some are trying to imply, this had nothing to do with "Danny won't pay his taxes." That is ludicrous. It is about a peon town trying to tax religious entities that had not been taxed before.
If Danny was just trying to get out of tax paying, 3abn could have moved to Marion, IL, about 18 miles from T'ville, where the mayor offered them all kinds of incentives to come there. He guaranteed they would be treated "right" as other ministries and church schools in the area are. In other words, they wouldn't have had a tax problem there. He welcomed the jobs that 3abn provides and realized that at times, people come from all parts of the world to see or be on 3abn and that generates business for the whole town. T'vill on the other hand, appears to be a town of farmers that doesn't want outsiders, much less SDA's.

This post has been edited by Richard Sherwin: Feb 28 2007, 05:29 PM

[PeacefulBe]

Erik, it is my understanding that one major item than contributed to the ruling was a huge oversite and the attorney's side and the judges side. If I get this correctly, somehow, the judge was given the board records from the beginning years of 3abn when only 6 people were on the board. In the very first stages those people were Danny, Linda, Kenny , his wife and the boys mother and stepfather. (I could have the stepfather wrong) The board expanded quickly over time and different changes were made but anyway, the judge based some of her decisions on what she thought was a family board. Somebody dropped the ball all the way around. Since the ruling had already been handed down, there was no alternative but to appeal which they did and are, but these kinds of cases take years. As you can see the other case was in 2004, so it has already been 3 years. 3abn did at least 1 program on this situation and maybe 2 because the final outcome could affect religious organizations everywhere as far as tax status goes. Contrary to what some are trying to imply, this had nothing to do with "Danny won't pay his taxes." That is ludicrous. It is about a peon town trying to tax religious entities that had not been taxed before.
If Danny was just trying to get out of tax paying, 3abn could have moved to Marion, IL, about 18 miles from T'ville, where the mayor offered them all kinds of incentives to come there. He guaranteed they would be treated "right" as other ministries and church schools in the area are. In other words, they wouldn't have had a tax problem there. He welcomed the jobs that 3abn provides and realized that at times, people come from all parts of the world to see or be on 3abn and that generates business for the whole town. T'vill on the other hand, appears to be a town of farmers that doesn't want outsiders, much less SDA's.

Just want to remind you, brother Bystander, that Jesus shed His precious blood for every "peon" and "farmer" in T'ville. That the town doesn't feel friendly towards SDAs does not speak too well of the influence of those at 3abn on the community outside their doors.

[watchbird]

hummmm....you're not saying....no, you're not saying.

You've obviously thought about this before. Are you hiding any other pieces of the puzzle? I can't help but wonder what all is not being said, and by whom. It must be ammusing, and/or devastating, for them to see pieces only they know about coming together. Could be wrong though.
:shrug:

Yes, I've thought about it a lot.... for some time. Still don't have all the pieces of the puzzle, but the ones I do have fit together very well.

As to what I was or was not saying.... I dunno.... 'cause I don't know what you are thinking I might be saying. But... if you ramble off through the maze of BSDA.... I'l betcha you'll come up with some more pieces.

Carry on.......... ..................

[Bystander]

A peon town? Is that the attitude of 3abn toward Thomsonville? That's appalling. And the little dig at farmers? With that sort of thinking I don't blame them for not wanting ya'll there. Disgusting.

Richard

Richard, don't twist my words. First of all 3abn didn't say it, I did. Second of all, I too, grew up in a farming community and have nothing against farmers. I do have something against a town of 600 people that try to push religious entities out by trying to tax what shouldn't be taxed, by referring to SDA's as weirdo's and oh, did I mention, they don't like other races there. They didn't have any ethnic variety until 3abn. The ministry has brought in african americans, spanish, puerto rican, and the community doesn't like it. There is still a KKK in the county. Now that is disgusting.

[Noahswife]

Richard,

It was all I could do not to jump on bystander's statement. You were more succinct than I would have been.

Now that we have blamed the lawyers and the farmers and the local government hungry for new revenues (the Liberty article) and hinted at persecution:

"Some think if 3ABN were owned and operated by one of the church groups representing a larger segment of the Franklin County community, there would be no objection to its religious tax exemption." (Liberty article)

we need to look at what the judge said. 3abn was making a lot of money and not doing anything the judge saw as "charitable". The board composition was just one aspect of what the judge considered.

Bystander, you seem familiar with the tax case. Do you know if any amicus briefs were filed by other organizations that would be concerned with the holding of the ALJ and her case law interpretation?

nw
C"i"

This post has been edited by Noahswife: Feb 28 2007, 07:24 PM

[PeacefulBe]

Richard, don't twist my words. First of all 3abn didn't say it, I did. Second of all, I too, grew up in a farming community and have nothing against farmers. I do have something against a town of 600 people that try to push religious entities out by trying to tax what shouldn't be taxed, by referring to SDA's as weirdo's and oh, did I mention, they don't like other races there. They didn't have any ethnic variety until 3abn. The ministry has brought in african americans, spanish, puerto rican, and the community doesn't like it. There is still a KKK in the county. Now that is disgusting.

Duane,
From your point of view as a community member, is Bystander's characterization of Thompsonville an accurate one?

PB

[Richard Sherwin]

I didn't twist anyone's words and I was asking if that was the attitude of 3abn towards Thompsonville.

Now let me present the other side. If you are a small town struggling to make ends meet, and most small towns are, and you see out at the edge of town an entity worth umpteen millions of dollars and their leaders flying around the country in a luxury jet, the owner (to them Danny would seem like the owner) having the hobby of owning horses and an income from music CD's, then you can't really blame them for not wanting some taxes on that. Yes it might be unconstitutional but you still can't blame them. And if some of those SDA's seem a little weird and are condescending towards you then it seems that 3abn is just asking for trouble. It might not be right but you still can't blame them

Richard, don't twist my words. First of all 3abn didn't say it, I did. Second of all, I too, grew up in a farming community and have nothing against farmers. I do have something against a town of 600 people that try to push religious entities out by trying to tax what shouldn't be taxed, by referring to SDA's as weirdo's and oh, did I mention, they don't like other races there. They didn't have any ethnic variety until 3abn. The ministry has brought in african americans, spanish, puerto rican, and the community doesn't like it. There is still a KKK in the county. Now that is disgusting.

[Clay]

I didn't twist anyone's words and I was asking if that was the attitude of 3abn towards Thompsonville.

Now let me present the other side. If you are a small town struggling to make ends meet, and most small towns are, and you see out at the edge of town an entity worth umpteen millions of dollars and their leaders flying around the country in a luxury jet, the owner (to them Danny would seem like the owner) having the hobby of owning horses and an income from music CD's, then you can't really blame them for not wanting some taxes on that. Yes it might be unconstitutional but you still can't blame them. And if some of those SDA's seem a little weird and are condescending towards you then it seems that 3abn is just asking for trouble. It might not be right but you still can't blame them

sounds like this would have been a good opportunity to shun the appearance of evil? Reach out to the community sooner? actually "help" those in that community? as opposed to what? being separate and aloof?

[Snoopy]

Well, not sure where your're from, but here, with the several multi-multi-multi-million dollar municipal organizations I work for, the first thing the auditor asks for is the minutes of all financial board-approved transactions. Then They ask for the budget. They "study" both of these. Then they ask for the reciepts, bank statements, checks, payrolls, etc. etc., including contacting venders at the other end. Our organizations are required by law to have a balanced budget. Everything has to square up, sometimes every line item--if so earmarked. At the end of the audit, certain officers meet with the auditors and we listen to their final reports and recommendations.

Like I said, I'm not sure what rules apply to NFP organizations like 3abn, but, I can't imagine the state wasn't the lead agency in the audit report referred to in the PDF file noahswife linked. Could be wrong though. This was a challenge to state and federal laws that regulate the organization. Auditors can be anyone from anywhere though--independent, working for gov't by contract, or actual gov't employees. Our team of independent auditors are always accompanied by a state rep that oversees the process.

But, you're right. It's all beside the point. I was just responding to your general statement that budgets don't get audited. They do here!

Please accept my apologies, LD. I was tired and cranky last night - obviously!! I am sure we just have had different experiences is all. I do appreciate your viewpoints!

Snoopy

[LaurenceD]

...it is my understanding that one major item than contributed to the ruling was a huge oversite and the attorney's side and the judges side. If I get this correctly, somehow, the judge was given the board records from the beginning years of 3abn when only 6 people were on the board. In the very first stages those people were Danny, Linda, Kenny , his wife and the boys mother and stepfather. (I could have the stepfather wrong) The board expanded quickly over time and different changes were made but anyway, the judge based some of her decisions on what she thought was a family board.

I'm not sure you're very familiar with the case...

The oral testimony was that in 2000 and 2001, applicant’s eleven to twelve member board was made up of Seventh-day Adventists laymen, business people, church employees, and former church employees. Some of applicant’s board members are and were Seventh-day Adventists’ pastors. The board meets 3-5 times a year. (Tr. pp. 92-95, Danny Shelton; Tr. pp. 499-501, Walter Thompson). The names of the board members, other than Mr. Thompson, in 2000 and 2001 were not in evidence. (from Judge Rowe's Recommendation, footnote #2, page 6)

Snoopy, no problem. I always enjoy your posts, even when I'm being corrected!

[Bystander]

I'm not sure you're very familiar with the case...

The oral testimony was that in 2000 and 2001, applicant’s eleven to twelve member board was made up of Seventh-day Adventists laymen, business people, church employees, and former church employees. Some of applicant’s board members are and were Seventh-day Adventists’ pastors. The board meets 3-5 times a year. (Tr. pp. 92-95, Danny Shelton; Tr. pp. 499-501, Walter Thompson). The names of the board members, other than Mr. Thompson, in 2000 and 2001 were not in evidence. (from Judge Rowe's Recommendation, footnote #2, page 6)

Snoopy, no problem. I always enjoy your posts, even when I'm being corrected!

I believe I stated that I didn't know all the details, but I do know that somehow she had records from the 80"s when there was a family board. Now how that came about, I don't know, What impact it had, I can't say, but I do know it turned out to be a problem.
I have know idea why you want to rehash this case that has been made very public on 3abn and other places, and, is being appealed. As I stated before they have other denominations pulling for them because the final ruling could affect other church entities. But the fact remains, this is 3 years old and they might not know the outcome for several more years. Bottom line, this is old news.

[LaurenceD]

No need to sound so bitter and uninformed. "rehash" is not an appropriate word. Anyone who professes the One whose life was an open book will understand. Some are just learning the facts. Be patient and kind. I'd like to place a hand on your shoulder, if I could, and calm what feels like a trembling individual, and say everything will be alright if you have nothing to hide.

[Noahswife]

As I stated before they have other denominations pulling for them because the final ruling could affect other church entities.

Bystander, is this support from other denominations mere words or have they taken the step of filing additional briefs with the court?

nw
C"i"