Save3abn Website, who runs it? Options

[PeacefulBe]

It seems to me too many who have been victims themselves here are allowing that to get in the way of objectively looking at the evidence and what is known, and what hasn't been proven or even supported.

My 2 cents...

You are nothing if not consistant in your attacks on the messengers! We victims can't objectively look at the evidence because we have been victimized?

So, we should leave the job of discerning the truth in these matters to you or Lee who have both consistantly demonstrated that you have no clear understanding of the subject of sexual abuse?

[Pickle]

But here's the problem. Tommy was disciplined by his Church in Illinois, after they investigated and the police did as well, and no charges were filed. the Church in Dunn Loring Virginaia looked into all this before hiring him as their Pastor.

Aletheia,

Why post if you can't get your facts straight?

1. It was because the Ezra CoG wouldn't deal with Tommy that the entire congregation got disfellowshipped by the Church of God (Anderson).
2. Dunn Loring was never informed about what the allegations in Illinois were, and they never inquired to find out.

[Observer]

Greg,
You are right on target here in your answer to Aletheia's posts about Tommy's "sins".

I think we need to go one step further. A person whose sin has victimized another has the responsibility to make restitution to that victim. Look at the example of David. He did some horrible things. When he got to the point that he desired to be forgiven for those sins, he made things right as far as possible. He couldn't bring back the man he caused to be killed, but he restored things as much as he could as a part of his repentence. We know he received the forgiveness he sought and still is know as beloved of God.

Private sins, those which only work to separate you from God, can be forgiven just between you and God. Public sins, those which have negatively affected others, have the consequences you spoke of but there is also the need to tend to the damage done to those victimized.

PB

Sometimes people feel that I have overwhelmed them with a massive response. I can do that.

So, I sometimes pick one small part of the issue and respond to it. I to not claim to be exaustive.

So, there is often more that may be said.

[PeacefulBe]

Sometimes people feel that I have overwhelmed them with a massive response. I can do that.

So, I sometimes pick one small part of the issue and respond to it. I to not claim to be exaustive.

So, there is often more that may be said.

And, usually, plenty of us to pipe up and say it!

[watchbird]

Sometimes people feel that I have overwhelmed them with a massive response. I can do that.

So, I sometimes pick one small part of the issue and respond to it. I to not claim to be exaustive.

So, there is often more that may be said.

When there is more that needs to be said.... please say it. We are not overwhelmed with your careful analysis of situations. In fact, you doing as you do is one of the things which helps us keep from being overwhelmed by the massive tirades that we are getting from certain quarters.

Many of these tirades scatter their shot so widely that it is probably impossible to address all points that need addressing in one post. In that case break them up and give us your response to all that you feel need addressing. There is no law that says that one cannot use two or three posts in responding to one previous one.

Thank you for your continued participation and analytical responses.


Carrry on........................................

[Aletheia]

You are nothing if not consistant in your attacks on the messengers! We victims can't objectively look at the evidence because we have been victimized?

So, we should leave the job of discerning the truth in these matters to you or Lee who have both consistantly demonstrated that you have no clear understanding of the subject of sexual abuse?

What are you the messenger of? What do you know specifically of the allegations and circumstances regarding Tommy Shelton and any alleged victims, beyond what has been posted here by Brad Dunning or Duane Clem?


See, this is what I am talking about PB, you can't ever discuss the facts and evidence or lack thereof in relation to Tommy Shelton without getting all upset and emotional. You either talk about your own experience, or someone elses, or someone brings up a case that was reported in a paper somewhere OR you take personal offense,and start accusing another.

And BTW, You and others are falsely assuming and making false accusations. Just because I do not tell my life's story here, doesn't mean I have no experience with sexual abuse, and pedophiles, and did not have very close friends both as a child and as an adult who were victims of sexual molestaion, and repeated rape, or that I haven't supported and helped get through really terrible things, or do not have a neice who was molested. I do have a upfront and personal experience with all this.

the truth is I already brought up the fact that I myself am a survivor of sexual abuse when I first arrived here but because I didn't just accept the accusations against Tommy without all the evidence and facts, I was insulted and ridiculed about my own experience, just as I have been about my abusive marriage and my divorce because of adultery. I shared how God was able to heal me, to help others and that has been something which Mr J has used as a weapon and accusation against me ever since.

But do you know what? That's ok, because none of it does anyhing to prove or disprove anything regarding the allegations against Tommy, or the validity of the cases of any alleged victims.

It just seems to be a convienientt excuse and accusation to throw at people who you disagre with, that they can't understand, that they have no experience and they never felt like you did, to try and make them look bad, and as if you know what you are talking about in regards, to T.S. and 3ABN. Give it up, PB!

[Bystander]

This has been asked and answered... not only by thouse repulsed by your scandalous arguments in support of Tommy... but by duane and beartrap (who was married to Tommy's niece, and was being supervised by Tommy

Oh, I guess you didn't know that the "niece" told years ago, that she had found out her husband had lied about the incident and she apologized for it. That makes your next paragraph about "hostile work environment" a moot point.
Also, if it had of been true, beartrap was a grown married man, not a child.

That, Cindy, is, frankly, sick.
Tommy propositions and solicits sex from teenage boys ergo he is a pedophile. There are enough first hand accounts of his misdeeds in that regard to make that appellation stick. His propositioning young men who have to work for him is a textbook instance of sexual harassment by creating a 'hostile work environment'. Both are criminal acts in every jurisdiction in this country.

The statement in red and several more in your earlier post have been forwarded to the Attorney's in Minnesota who constantly monitor the site, but "especially slanderous" statements are always forwarded just in case they missed it. You notice I said Statements. There is a big difference in making the IF THIS IS TRUE allegations or in what you did ,which was ,prononce your judgments as fact. Even if you believe there is no suit coming, most people would still be careful in how that phrase their accusations, just in case.
Obviously you have no qualms in that direction.
Good.

[Richard Sherwin]

Ooooo....don't scare us like that

And welcome to the wild wild world of the internet.

The statement in red and several more in your earlier post have been forwarded to the Attorney's in Minnesota who constantly monitor the site, but "especially slanderous" statements are always forwarded just in case they missed it. You notice I said Statements. There is a big difference in making the IF THIS IS TRUE allegations or in what you did ,which was ,prononce your judgments as fact. Even if you believe there is no suit coming, most people would still be careful in how that phrase their accusations, just in case.
Obviously you have no qualms in that direction.
Good.

[princessdi]

...and what exactly is it you want us to do with this? The statements are only slanderous if untrue. There are more than enough victims coming forward to place doubt on slander. The lawyer in Minnesota surely are not disregarding the victims statements, are they? Now, to prove slander you do know that all this will have to play out in court, victims statments and all? Are you so sure of TS's innocence?

The statement in red and several more in your earlier post have been forwarded to the Attorney's in Minnesota who constantly monitor the site, but "especially slanderous" statements are always forwarded just in case they missed it. You notice I said Statements. There is a big difference in making the IF THIS IS TRUE allegations or in what you did ,which was ,prononce your judgments as fact. Even if you believe there is no suit coming, most people would still be careful in how that phrase their accusations, just in case.
Obviously you have no qualms in that direction.
Good.

[awesumtenor]

The statement in red and several more in your earlier post have been forwarded to the Attorney's in Minnesota who constantly monitor the site, but "especially slanderous" statements are always forwarded just in case they missed it. You notice I said Statements. There is a big difference in making the IF THIS IS TRUE allegations or in what you did ,which was ,prononce your judgments as fact. Even if you believe there is no suit coming, most people would still be careful in how that phrase their accusations, just in case.
Obviously you have no qualms in that direction.
Good.

Bring it, lap dog.... unless of course your master wants you to play fetch now... those same attorneys recognize that the first amendment says your threat is toothless... so go find some ignorant yokel to threaten...as I've told you before... everyone isn't from west frankfort and at such time as when we hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and dulcimer, and all kinds of music even if you and the rest of the lackeys in your camp are content to bow down and worship the image of Danny... I will NOT bow down... so bring on your fiery furnace... but be mindful you dont get yourself burned up calling yourself throwing me and others in... and don't worry about what God will save me out of the hand of Danny Shelton and his Minnesota lawyers; I know Him even if you don't.

In His service,
Mr. J

[princessdi]

See, this is exactly why I ask you not to post, until you read and/or comprehend the information. To my knowledge there are more than two victim accounts. Also, if there are victim's(meaning more than one) what else do you need?

What are you the messenger of? What do you know specifically of the allegations and circumstances regarding Tommy Shelton and any alleged victims, beyond what has been posted here by Brad Dunning or Duane Clem?See, this is what I am talking about PB, you can't ever discuss the facts and evidence or lack thereof in relation to Tommy Shelton without getting all upset and emotional. You either talk about your own experience, or someone elses, or someone brings up a case that was reported in a paper somewhere OR you take personal offense,and start accusing another.

And BTW, You and others are falsely assuming and making false accusations. Just because I do not tell my life's story here, doesn't mean I have no experience with sexual abuse, and pedophiles, and did not have very close friends both as a child and as an adult who were victims of sexual molestaion, and repeated rape, or that I haven't supported and helped get through really terrible things, or do not have a neice who was molested. I do have a upfront and personal experience with all this.

the truth is I already brought up the fact that I myself am a survivor of sexual abuse when I first arrived here but because I didn't just accept the accusations against Tommy without all the evidence and facts, I was insulted and ridiculed about my own experience, just as I have been about my abusive marriage and my divorce because of adultery. I shared how God was able to heal me, to help others and that has been something which Mr J has used as a weapon and accusation against me ever since.

But do you know what? That's ok, because none of it does anyhing to prove or disprove anything regarding the allegations against Tommy, or the validity of the cases of any alleged victims.

It just seems to be a convienientt excuse and accusation to throw at people who you disagre with, that they can't understand, that they have no experience and they never felt like you did, to try and make them look bad, and as if you know what you are talking about in regards, to T.S. and 3ABN. Give it up, PB!

[Noahswife]

The statement in red and several more in your earlier post have been forwarded to the Attorney's in Minnesota who constantly monitor the site, but "especially slanderous" statements are always forwarded just in case they missed it. You notice I said Statements. There is a big difference in making the IF THIS IS TRUE allegations or in what you did ,which was ,prononce your judgments as fact. Even if you believe there is no suit coming, most people would still be careful in how that phrase their accusations, just in case.
Obviously you have no qualms in that direction.
Good.

Bystander,

Please stop using words with specific legal meanings if you do not know what they mean.

slander

A type of defamation. Slander is an untruthful oral (spoken) statement about a person that harms the person's reputation or standing in the community. Because slander is a tort (a civil wrong), the injured person can bring a lawsuit against the person who made the false statement. If the statement is made via broadcast media -- for example, over the radio or on TV -- it is considered libel, rather than slander, because the statement has the potential to reach a very wide audience.

http://www.nolo.com/definition.cfm/term/85...2F5C32E716A6D52

Because you have used the term as if you knew what you were talking about, the responders to your post have done as well.

nw
C"I"

This post has been edited by Noahswife: Mar 14 2007, 10:49 AM

[princessdi]

Cindy you asked some questions, and I don't want you to think I didn't respond. However, Awesumtenor, Observer, PB, etc. have done a wonderful job in answering your questions. So, my answer is "Yeah, what they said!"

I just have to add this. The problem is your comment, opinions should stop there. Admitting it is a wrong. All the rest sound like rationalizations. There is no need to try to disctredit the victims, especially since you "know" they are victims of two of three offenses, peodphilia, abuse of power and position of authority in approaching young men for sex, and adulterer. He was wrong, period.

Also, to be truthful, I have always just maintained that TS needed to be sidelined untill an investigation was done. I thought that only fair. That is the only true way to maintain focus on the true mission of 3ABN.

I have said that myself. In fact Seraphim asked that question specifically and I answered that it is wrong. Further, It is sin. And Bystander answered the same.

[Bystander]

...and what exactly is it you want us to do with this? The statements are only slanderous if untrue. There are more than enough victims coming forward to place doubt on slander. The lawyer in Minnesota surely are not disregarding the victims statements, are they? Now, to prove slander you do know that all this will have to play out in court, victims statments and all? Are you so sure of TS's innocence?

I am very sure of what are lies and what is truth. You all underestimate the attorneys that have taken on this case. Mr. J, in his ridiculous post says the attorneys know "my threat" is toothless. Right. I am not making a threat. The case is what defines whether this suit will be a threat. That is why they took the case. They don't know things like: 1. Mr. J made the statements, he has the burden of proof. 2. they don't know the difference between the first ammendment and slandering a persons character and reputation. 3.I am sure they also "don't know" that in certain parts of the suit, 3 abn might be required to prove the facts in a false allegation towards them.
Nah, they don't know near as much as some of you here. They just took the case for the heck of it knowing they will lose........yah right.

Now Mr. J. you're tough, you can take it. You want to make slanderous statements as in fact and you want to be sued. Ok good. I want to be there when you, yourself have to prove what you have said about TS. This will be especially gratifying when you don't know any of the people involved, don't know anything about them except what you have read in a "chat room" and have absolutely no connection to, 3abn, The Shelton's or even the alleged victims for that matter. Yes Mr. J. You will certainly have a credible and valid defense when you have no proof whatsoever to bring forward.
You and everyone else can act incensed all you want but you know what I say is truth. Are you willing to go through a nightmare, hire a defense attorney, make a fool of yourself in court, since you, yourself can't prove anything, and then take a chance on paying some huge fines and penalties, all so you can have the enjoyment of slandering someone you don't even know?
Not too smart.

nw
C"I"

Unlike the rest of you, I don't profess to have legal knowledge. I don't need to. That is why those attorneys who specialize in these types of cases, get to do the work. I can't wait to see how many more of you will challenge their knowledge against what You "know". What arrogance.

[erik]

I am very sure of what are lies and what is truth. You all underestimate the attorneys that have taken on this case. Mr. J, in his ridiculous post says the attorneys know "my threat" is toothless. Right. I am not making a threat. The case is what defines whether this suit will be a threat. That is why they took the case. They don't know things like: 1. Mr. J made the statements, he has the burden of proof. 2. they don't know the difference between the first ammendment and slandering a persons character and reputation. 3.I am sure they also "don't know" that in certain parts of the suit, 3 abn might be required to prove the facts in a false allegation towards them.
Nah, they don't know near as much as some of you here. They just took the case for the heck of it knowing they will lose........yah right.

Now Mr. J. you're tough, you can take it. You want to make slanderous statements as in fact and you want to be sued. Ok good. I want to be there when you, yourself have to prove what you have said about TS. This will be especially gratifying when you don't know any of the people involved, don't know anything about them except what you have read in a "chat room" and have absolutely no connection to, 3abn, The Shelton's or even the alleged victims for that matter. Yes Mr. J. You will certainly have a credible and valid defense when you have no proof whatsoever to bring forward.
You and everyone else can act incensed all you want but you know what I say is truth. Are you willing to go through a nightmare, hire a defense attorney, make a fool of yourself in court, since you, yourself can't prove anything, and then take a chance on paying some huge fines and penalties, all so you can have the enjoyment of slandering someone you don't even know?
Not too smart.

bystander,


you just gave way your whole "case", it will interesting to watch how lawyers handle, loss of superise.

erik




bystander,

lawyers takes cases often because they are getting paid to do so, that in no way reflects on the winable it of the case, it more likely reflects on the size of checkbook hiring them.

erik

This post has been edited by erik: Mar 14 2007, 11:11 AM