Reason For Divorce, Is lusting grounds for divorce? Options

[PeacefulBe]

Oh, it was on topic here, but first things first.

My point was if everyone is not on the same page with the same definitions, and the same understanding of the scriptures, and principles and laws; then it does no good to discuss how they do or do not apply to the Sheltons, or anyone else.

You are right, Aletheia. Some are not on the same page with definitions. I think it might be wise to establish a consistant definition of what "sin" is. As it now stands, Danny/Tommy is not perfect but are doing a great work for God but Linda betrayed her husband and her ministry by talking far too long on the phone with the doctor who was treating her son.

Anyway people here turn a blind eye to anything Linda Shelton did and are willing to excuse it in the name of being loving "Who cares if she chose another man rather then her husband, and her ministry, they had no right to tell her she couldn't have him, and you can't prove that was adultery". "Who cares if she did all that you say she did, and is still doing that, you are supposed to forgive and forget and be loving to her"
These same people so concerned about love are willing to accuse a ministry of God day and night, and remove them from their positions, and have done a whole lot of exposing and public accusations, and they also call that love. They have never acted toward Danny Shelton, the 3ABN board or any and all they have constantly criticized and judged as they ask those they disagree with to act toward Linda.

( did you hear the one about Danny being an adulterer with Brenda Walsh while married, and how they claim he is a adulterer with Brandy too?!? Anybody posting here following their own advice and counsel here in this thread and treating Danny the way they say Linda should be treated? Any of them upset with the people accusing Danny and exposing him?)

Sin needs to be rebuked they say, but only when it is those they are accusing.

Seems that more than Linda supporters are turning blind eyes, but that's JMO.

Now, who ever said Danny and the others had no right to tell Linda that she couldn't "have" the doctor and have we seen any proof of adultery? "They" have never made a case for adultery although they have certainly made such claims. "Sin needs to be rebuked they say, but only when it is those they are accusing." Interesting statement. Et tu?

They forgot this whole stinking mess happened when sin was rebuked, and dealt with because love and care and counseling weren't accepted. They took exception to what they called references and exposing of Linda and what she'd done, and yet, they have said and have done so much more then they could ever lay at 3ABN's door.
It makes no sense. It is extreme hypocrisy and it makes me feel ill.

Aletheia, this whole stinking mess started long before "sin was rebuked and dealt with... " That is just when it became much more widely known; public. Duane happened far before 2004, etc, etc. This is far from simply about Linda Shelton and "spiritual adultery". That was merely the flash-point.

How bout we start with the premise that none are righteous, no, not one and that all have failed and come short of the glory of God, etc.

If your perception of hypocrisy make you feel ill, just imagine how our Lord, who knows the full truth in all cases, must feel.

[awesumtenor]

Oh, it was on topic here, but first things first.

My point was if everyone is not on the same page with the same definitions, and the same understanding of the scriptures, and principles and laws; then it does no good to discuss how they do or do not apply to the Sheltons, or anyone else.

Anyway people here turn a blind eye to anything Linda Shelton did and are willing to excuse it in the name of being loving "Who cares if she chose another man rather then her husband, and her ministry, they had no right to tell her she couldn't have him, and you can't prove that was adultery". "Who cares if she did all that you say she did, and is still doing that, you are supposed to forgive and forget and be loving to her"
These same people so concerned about love are willing to accuse a ministry of God day and night, and remove them from their positions, and have done a whole lot of exposing and public accusations, and they also call that love. They have never acted toward Danny Shelton, the 3ABN board or any and all they have constantly criticized and judged as they ask those they disagree with to act toward Linda.

( did you hear the one about Danny being an adulterer with Brenda Walsh while married, and how they claim he is a adulterer with Brandy too?!? Anybody posting here following their own advice and counsel here in this thread and treating Danny the way they say Linda should be treated? Any of them upset with the people accusing Danny and exposing him?)

Sin needs to be rebuked they say, but only when it is those they are accusing.

They forgot this whole stinking mess happened when sin was rebuked, and dealt with because love and care and counseling weren't accepted. They took exception to what they called references and exposing of Linda and what she'd done, and yet, they have said and have done so much more then they could ever lay at 3ABN's door.
It makes no sense. It is extreme hypocrisy and it makes me feel ill.

Cindy,

You only say this because you believe what you were told by others... or have you forgotten that you admitted that you had never met or spoken to Danny or Linda and that you had no first hand knowledge of any of the facts and events related to this topic.

So, for all of your indignation, you don't know anything... which means the one who "loveth and maketh a lie" could very easily be you. You keep talking about Linda like you know her when you've already admitted you dont... and never have. You keep talking about Danny like he wears a halo and walks on water... but all you have is what you have been told by others...

When those things you have been told are shown to be less than the truth will you return to this forum and acknowledge that you have done many wrong and seek forgiveness?

I wont hold my breath waiting for such to occur...

In His service,
Mr. J

[Johann]

Oh, it was on topic here, but first things first.
- - -
Anyway people here turn a blind eye to anything Linda Shelton did and are willing to excuse it in the name of being loving "Who cares if she chose another man rather then her husband, and her ministry, they had no right to tell her she couldn't have him, and you can't prove that was adultery". "Who cares if she did all that you say she did, and is still doing that, you are supposed to forgive and forget and be loving to her"
- - -

You have already noticed that not all agree with you here. How about showing documents to verify your claims?

I do not know of anyone who has turned a blind eye to anything Linda has done. I understood from an early conversation with Kay Kuzma that she was assigned to collect all kinds of evil accusations against Linda so that 3ABN could find a good reason to fire her as vice president when it became known that Danny Shelton wanted to get rid of his vice president. Have you been able to dig up some of this and are you able to verify the truthfulness of her discoveries? This may help in our discussions. I understood Kay telling me that not all agreed, so she had to make many interviews to find what she was looking for. 3ABN was in such a desperate situation. Kay told me they were not able to fire Linda because of Danny's marital disagreements with Linda, so they just had to find something else. Can you verify that this illegal search was successful?

In some European countries such a search would result in heavy fines or other punishment. I do not know if it is legal in Illinois, but is it morally the right thing to do?

I suppose Kay Kuzma will now have to deny she told me these things at that time, since 3ABN now uses a legal vocabulary, which can be quite different. But can you understand the significance of this 45-minute conversation I had with Kay Kuzma at this time before the 2004 Camp Meeting?

This post has been edited by Johann: Aug 30 2007, 02:30 PM

[Ozzie]

it makes me feel ill.

Maybe, it might help you to take a little walk - away from here? Don't want you feeling sick No one is twisting your arm to stay. Your choice!

[Dona]

You have already noticed that not all agree with you here. How about showing documents to verify your claims?

I do not know of anyone who has turned a blind eye to anything Linda has done. I understood from an early conversation with Kay Kuzma that she was assigned to collect all kinds of evil accusations against Linda so that 3ABN could find a good reason to fire her as vice president when it became known that Danny Shelton wanted to get rid of his vice president. Have you been able to dig up some of this and are you able to verify the truthfulness of her discoveries? This may help in our discussions. I understood Kay telling me that not all agreed, so she had to make many interviews to find what she was looking for. 3ABN was in such a desperate situation. Kay told me they were not able to fire Linda because of Danny's marital disagreements with Linda, so they just had to find something else. Can you verify that this illegal search was successful?

In some European countries such a search would result in heavy fines or other punishment. I do not know if it is legal in Illinois, but is it morally the right thing to do?

I suppose Kay Kuzma will now have to deny she told me these things at that time, since 3ABN now uses a legal vocabulary, which can be quite different. But can you understand the significance of this 45-minute conversation I had with Kay Kuzma at this time before the 2004 Camp Meeting?

I was under the impression she has all along been correcting the misinformation?

Dear Calvin,

I have become aware that your site published Johann Thorvaldsson's article about "The Story of Linda Shelton."

Since I am mentioned in that article, I thought you might be interested in publishing a response to correct the misinformation given about my involvement.

If you need to call me, my # is xxx-xxx-xxxx.

Thank you.
Kay Kuzma

Here is my statement:

To those who may question my involvement with 3ABN and the circumstances which led up to Linda Shelton leaving 3ABN:

Yes, I was involved in what happened at 3ABN concerning Linda however the internet article in which you read about my involvement titled "The Story of Linda Shelton" by Johann Thorvaldsson, is saturated with the writer's biased personal perceptions and has very little to do with what actually happened. I was there – I know.

Rather than address each falsehood, which would be too time consuming, I will simply address the three major errors concerning me:

Here is what was printed about me: "Long before Linda's dismissal, Dr. Kay Kuzma was assigned to help Linda manage after being fired. She was also supposed to interview staff members to find a good reason to fire her, so one wonders what really is behind this upheaval?"

Here is what actually happened:

1) I was not brought in early – in fact, I was brought in during the last six weeks after Danny and Linda had been in months of counseling with professionals – with Linda still refusing to follow what the counselors suggested, i.e., unanimously the counselors told her that she would have to give up her relationship with the doctor in Norway who she was spending up to six hours each day talking with.

2) I was not brought in to help Linda "manage" after she was fired – she was never fired. The committee I was on (and later the Board) repeatedly gave her opportunity to talk with them trying to bring resolution and restoration to both her ministry at 3ABN and her marriage. She refused at every point. There was never discussion concerning "firing" Linda when I became involved – only a discussion on how to help her. There was such a concern for Linda's reputation that the entire Board was not initially notified about the situation until it became an absolute necessity to do so. I was on a small committee of two Board members, the 3ABN attorney, and myself. The small committee's discussion centered on how to save Linda for ministry. Linda talked to me one time and refused any further contact I tried to make with her.

3) I was NOT asked by 3ABN to interview staff concerning Linda. Linda, herself, asked me to talk with the staff. She even gave me the specific names of the people she wanted me to talk with. The results from the interviews with the employees Linda suggested weren't flattering to her. When I tried to get back with her, she refused to answer my calls.

The overwhelming error in Mr. Thorvaldsson's account of the events surrounding Linda Shelton's departure from 3ABN gives witness to the fact that his observation was from many thousands of miles away and only receiving his information from the two involved in the duplicity.

Hopefully it has become apparent to you, as I pointed out the error contained in these three lines alone, that this entire article is full of misinformation. If you would like specific answers to any other point, I'll be happy to share. God is good and truth will prevail even though there are those who are trying to stir up controversy.

I believe the most important thing to understand is that eventually the fruit of a person's decisions will become evident. Although I will not comment further about what happened to lead up to Linda's departure from 3ABN, we know that the other man had been to the States and spent time with Linda before she left Danny, and that immediately after she left Danny, the other man was with Linda. A few weeks later they spent time traveling together through Europe.

Please remember, 3ABN is not Danny or Linda's ministry – it is God's, and every day we all see incredible miracles as God is moving

His ministry forward. It's been a very difficult time – as we all love Linda and recognize how much God used her in her role as co-host with Danny. God truly gifted her with the ability to write beautiful songs that have been a tremendous blessing to thousands.

Thanks for remembering 3ABN in your prayers – and thanks for not sharing Mr. Thorvaldsson's article with anyone else – since I know you don't want to be a part of spreading misinformation.

Sincerely,
Kay Kuzma

This post has been edited by Dona: Aug 30 2007, 05:15 PM

[daylily]

"There was such a concern for Linda's reputation that the entire Board was not initially notified about the situation until it became an absolute necessity to do so. I was on a small committee of two Board members, the 3ABN attorney, and myself."

This quote from Kay Kuzma's letter bothers me. The fact that the entire Board was not notified is not good, in my opinion. Walt Thomopson was one of the board members on the committee because he said so and we know that he believes that God speaks through Danny. When the rest of the Board was notified, what were they told? The truth or what Danny, et al wanted them to know? I f I had beenLinda, I would have refused to talk to Kay too.

[princessdi]

.......Kay, JL,(the eletronics guy, I still can't get over that one), WT, I would not have talked to not a one of them! Can we say "set up"? Couneseling, my foot! Hmmmmmph!!!

"There was such a concern for Linda's reputation that the entire Board was not initially notified about the situation until it became an absolute necessity to do so. I was on a small committee of two Board members, the 3ABN attorney, and myself."

This quote from Kay Kuzma's letter bothers me. The fact that the entire Board was not notified is not good, in my opinion. Walt Thomopson was one of the board members on the committee because he said so and we know that he believes that God speaks through Danny. When the rest of the Board was notified, what were they told? The truth or what Danny, et al wanted them to know? I f I had beenLinda, I would have refused to talk to Kay too.

[daylily]

Set up is right!

[beartrap]

I was under the impression she has all along been correcting the miinformation?

Much of the "information" and "misinformation" is based on people telling what they saw and heard: "he said, she said." People can choose to believe Kay, or they can choose to believe Johann. But one thing that is rock solid and requires no interpretation or extrapolation is that 3ABN and Danny went on the record in a court document and lied about 3ABN. What does that say to the veracity of the rest of the document and the many issues it addresses, including Linda and her affair?

This post has been edited by beartrap: Aug 30 2007, 05:11 PM

[princessdi]

Ok?! Because if he can be discredited in any area...........it all goes! I watched Perry Mason, Matlock, L.A. Law, and now Law and Order! LOL!!!

But seriously, I found Kay less credible because she was supposed to be counseling Linda, and then she came here just telling all the business, and I know that is so illegal( this concern was raised by the professionals in membership at BSDA who also work in the area of counseling and mental health). This paragraph alone should have gotten her sued(bolded portions):

1) I was not brought in early – in fact, I was brought in during the last six weeks after Danny and Linda had been in months of counseling with professionals – with Linda still refusing to follow what the counselors suggested, i.e., unanimously the counselors told her that she would have to give up her relationship with the doctor in Norway who she was spending up to six hours each day talking with.

Plus, if they were already in cousneling with "professionals" what was she doing there. Naw, she wasn't correcting she was speading Danny's message.

Much of the "information" and "misinformation" is based on people telling what they saw and heard: "he said, she said." People can choose to believe Kay, or they can choose to believe Johann. But one thing that is rock solid and requires no interpretation or extrapolation is that 3ABN and Danny went on the record in a court document and lied about 3ABN. What does that say to the veracity of the rest of the document and the many issues it addresses, including Linda and her affair?

[LaurenceD]

Set up is right!

Not only that possibility, but then there's the appearance of fairness.

I think it's understood that, like with their ex-attorney, someone had to go. The survival of the organization came first. I think we can safely work backwards from there to understand the rest. 3abn was the investigator, judge, prosecutor, jury, enforcement, news media, and held exclusive rights to all real or manufactured evidence, and on and on and on. It even went to lengths (as reported) to try and control the defense. It even tried to controll the victim, as reported, with offers.

The little compound almost had complete control in shaping public perception--yet unable to produce the other facts and other evidence, that cropped up later, that ran contrary to the controlled news release about Linda, live that unglorious Thursday night. What a misuse of power!

This is the kind of trouble small fanantic religious compounds get into when there's no checks and balances anywhere. And there may be good reason why they don't want any real impartial oversight.

Now their reputation is on the line. They never dreamed this would happen...kinda like the way their other lawsuit backfired on them. Can you imagine the gloom after all those prayers...trying to control the outcome even through the spirit, which BTW they also apparently thought they owned?

What goes around comes around though, and they probably can't imagine...

"...depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (on one hand and preach the gospel on the other)

The double minded.

[Richard Sherwin]

No no no, we need all the Cindy's, Dona's and Appletree's we can get. They make such excellent points for the Dannyclones....critics Just as Danny's lawsuit has. They have met the enemy, and the enemy is them.

Richard

Maybe, it might help you to take a little walk - away from here? Don't want you feeling sick No one is twisting your arm to stay. Your choice!

[PrincessDrRe]

The only way to "prove" adultery of the thought would be to be a mindreader or to be "in the head" of the person.

Since ain't none of yall mindreaders - how you gonna divorce me on what you think I'm thinking? You ain't even sure, you don't have no proof, but what you jes think I'm thinking.

"That's hot!"
Paris Hilton, circa 2002

[LaurenceD]

No no no, we need all the Cindy's, Dona's and Appletree's we can get. They make such excellent points for the Dannyclones....critics Just as Danny's lawsuit has. They have met the enemy, and the enemy is them.

That brings to mind a quote from EGW I learned when I was in school...

"the greatest enemy you will ever have to face is self."

[LaurenceD]

The only way to "prove" adultery of the thought would be to be a mindreader or to be "in the head" of the person.

I forget who said it here the other day, but someone was equating lust with adultry. Funny, no one was caught in adultry, like the woman they drug up to Jesus, and every one of the accusers would still walk away if Christ were to start writing in the sand...those who were guilty of lust--according to the strictest defintion.