Merger Off? Options

[mystery- man]

So in your opinion, what Ellen White writes supercedes the Bible? Has it ever donned on you that in the days of Jesus' ministry, there was no such thing as REFRIGERATION? Your statement that "meat back then was not contaminated as it is today" is purely subjective. Your statement, MysteryMan, is the one that lacks substance... Some scattered instances of meat contamination does not mean that all meat is tainted.

Keep believing it is purely subjective -----stop getting all heated the substance thing was a joke. I dont think Ellen White writing supercedes the Bible. But in the context of what she is saying she is correct. Mad cow desease and many more deseases have been traced directly to meat eating. What has the refrigeration thing have to do with anything they knew how to keep things cool they werent cave men. You need to let the meat thing go really man cause I know people who have been in the industry and they will readily tell you that the meat farms are totally messed up. They feed the vegitarian cows and chickens meat ect. ect. steroids anitbiotics man you really need to let that one go. This is a benchmark for Adventism and a good one leave it alone.... The meat today is not even prepared as good as the meat was in biblical time---they drained the blood ect. ect. What Ellen White says stays subject to the bible and is right in line with it.

[lowender]

Keep believing it is purely subjective -----stop getting all heated the substance thing was a joke. I dont think Ellen White writing supercedes the Bible. But in the context of what she is saying she is correct. Mad cow desease and many more deseases have been traced directly to meat eating. What has the refrigeration thing have to do with anything they knew how to keep things cool they werent cave men. You need to let the meat thing go really man cause I know people who have been in the industry and they will readily tell you that the meat farms are totally messed up. They feed the vegitarian cows and chickens meat ect. ect. steroids anitbiotics man you really need to let that one go. This is a benchmark for Adventism and a good one leave it alone.... The meat today is not even prepared as good as the meat was in biblical time---they drained the blood ect. ect. What Ellen White says stays subject to the bible and is right in line with it.

So, with your statements, I guess you believe that Jesus' meat-eating habits were a result of the times He was living in? That He fed the fish to the 5000 people because He didn't know to feed them better?

Can you give me an idea as to HOW people in Jesus time kept their food cold?

Are you suggesting that Jesus was only living up to the light that He knew?

[beartrap]

What Ellen White says stays subject to the bible and is right in line with it.

I am very interested in how you would biblically support this statement as it relates to the issue of veganism. I have never seen anything in the Bible that would in any way support veganism as a test of trustworthiness in leaders, as a deciding factor in who will walk with God's people, or in its impact on clarity of mind. I am certainly open to learn, but I would like to see it quoted from the Bible. If the Bible does not support a doctrine I view it as unbiblical. Also, can you explain to me how it is that EGW does not supercede Jesus Christ if she produced salvational doctrines that contradict the life of Christ and make His actions an example that will lead us away from salvation?

This post has been edited by beartrap: Aug 13 2007, 04:44 AM

[daylily]

I would imagine that people in Bible times kept food cool the same way that my grandparents and many others did. They used water. They had a "spring house" with a small canal of water running through it. they set their jars of milk, etc. in the water. Also they dried and salted meat and it did not spoil.

Do you all follow Jesus' example of traveling around and preaching, teaching and healing too? He mentioned that he had nowhere to lay his head. Do you own homes? Jesus walked everywhere he went. Do you own a vehicle?

[mystery- man]

I am very interested in how you would biblically support this statement as it relates to the issue of veganism. I have never seen anything in the Bible that would in any way support veganism as a test of trustworthiness in leaders, as a deciding factor in who will walk with God's people, or in its impact on clarity of mind. I am certainly open to learn, but I would like to see it quoted from the Bible. If the Bible does not support a doctrine I view it as unbiblical. Also, can you explain to me how it is that EGW does not supercede Jesus Christ if she produced salvational doctrines that contradict the life of Christ and make His actions an example that will lead us away from salvation?

Obviously, everything is not in the bible---Television cds, and a number of other things. Now if you no longer believe what Adventist say then why call yourself Adventist the doctrins and truth will not change. But really folks common sense must apply Thank goodness for the writings of Ellen White which allow us to escape some of the sickness and suffering and to pass on this knowledge to others. Again the polution and things that exist now did not exist in Jesus time----I am so thankful for he light we have now.

[Clay]

If Americans ate the way Jesus ate, there would be far less heart disease, cancer, diabates, and the like.

The question isn't just whether He ate meat, but what percentage of His diet was meat, and how healthy the animals were that He ate.


I don't detect any speculation on the part of Ellen White or the authors of Psalms 106 and Numbers.

Anything that helps the mind think more clearly can help us in our relationship with God. And that may have been part of Kellogg's problem: he maybe should have gotten more sleep.

Are you a vegan? Does it help you think more clearly? Does that thinking clearly reflect your actions in the ongoing 3abn saga? Were you thinking clearly when you agreed that it was a good idea to NOT get Mr. Miller's permission or at least let him know you all were about to post his email? You want me to believe that course of action was "clearly" thought out?

[PeacefulBe]

Claiming that a vegan diet makes a person's mind more clear and thus having a closer walk with God is dangerously close to salvation by works.

Taking a shower each day to clean the stink off of the body is a choice. Consuming stuff that doesn't cloud the mind and that keeps the body running smoothly is a choice. Having a mind-set that turns this or anything else into a way to salvation or even a ruler to judge others by has been par for the course in this denomination's history and ruins the whole point, IMO. However, in my own experience, I am clearly seeing a trend in this denomination - at least in my own church - to take steps away from legalism and the adversary's tricky doctrine of salvation by works and getting back to the true Source of salvation. A great by-product of this move - once again in my own church - has been a move towards acceptance that each member is at a different point in their spiritual journey and a practice of the same unconditional love we desire from God.

One of my favorite Casting Crowns songs is "Stained Glass Masquerade". I think the chorus somehow fits here.

Are we happy plastic people
Under shiny plastic steeples
With walls around our weakness
And smiles to hide our pain
But if the invitation’s open
To every heart that has been broken
Maybe then we close the curtain
On our stained glass masquerade


It pains me to hear Ozzie's report from Australia and the other similar ones from this continent that there are still churches in this denomination that have so terribly missed the true message. I trust that, eventually, we will all reach the point where we've had enough experience with the maquerade to realize just how huge a roadblock it is to salvation.

[Pickle]

So Pickle... Are you thinking that maybe Jesus, who ate fish & also, with no cold storage, drank wine, was only responding to the times & culture around Him?

Wine was a necessary staple of middle eastern, Jewish diet at the time to avoid scurvy, a vitamin C deficiency. Fruit was not in season year-around.

When you speak of wine being a staple back then, you are talking about 1) unfermented grape juice either a) made fresh around the time of grape harvest, or b ) boiled down into syrup and reconstituted later, or 2) fermented grape juice diluted with water at a ratio of 2 or 3 to 1 up to 20 to 1?

Baptist preacher John MacArthur, Jr., had a sermon on the topic years ago in which he read historians from that era that went so far as to say that if you drank straight fermented wine undiluted with water, you were a barbarian.

What MacArthur presented about reconstitution explains how they could have new wine at the Passover. One of the historians he read from described how a certain locality had wine so thick, you had to scrape it off the wineskins.

[lowender]

When you speak of wine being a staple back then, you are talking about 1) unfermented grape juice either a) made fresh around the time of grape harvest, or b ) boiled down into syrup and reconstituted later, or 2) fermented grape juice diluted with water at a ratio of 2 or 3 to 1 up to 20 to 1?

Baptist preacher John MacArthur, Jr., had a sermon on the topic years ago in which he read historians from that era that went so far as to say that if you drank straight fermented wine undiluted with water, you were a barbarian.

What MacArthur presented about reconstitution explains how they could have new wine at the Passover. One of the historians he read from described how a certain locality had wine so thick, you had to scrape it off the wineskins.

That may be Pickle... thanks for showing me that...

[Denny]

Great speech but very little substance Obviously the meat back then was not contaminated as it is today. Obviously God would not have directed Ellen G. White to write something if he knew it would go against what he had previously written unless you no longer believe in the writtings or Ellen G. White as being inspired. Just about everyone will tell you down to the meat packers at Krogers that the meat supply is contaminated to the extent that it is not safe to eat. I do believe if Jesus were here today he would not eat it either..... Obviously God knows something indicitive of the meat that we should not eat it. No Ellen G. White was not wrong what she says stands today and is a part of the Adventist belief.

Being a vegan or vegetarian is not a test of fellowship or a requirement for membership so is not an Adventist belief.
BTW the soil used to grow food is contaminated, nothing in this day and age is 100% 'clean'.

[lowender]

OK! Looks as though this vegan stuff is something that some us have strong opinions about, as well as strong odors.

But getting back to the issue at hand... The merger is off & there is no doubt that it didn't happen because of the behavior & financial blunderings of Danny Shelton. With that being the case, Danny Shelton, and 3ABN have now been successfully marginalized from any discussion and role in the future of the SDA church. Can 3ABN be counted on any longer as a trustworthy supportive ministry? Likely not.

[Pickle]

Were you thinking clearly when you agreed that it was a good idea to NOT get Mr. Miller's permission or at least let him know you all were about to post his email? You want me to believe that course of action was "clearly" thought out?

I still fail to see any wrong doing in Gailon's decision to post that email. There comes a time when corruption must be exposed, despite pleas to the contrary.

[Clay]

I still fail to see any wrong doing in Gailon's decision to post that email. There comes a time when corruption must be exposed, despite pleas to the contrary.

so then its safe to say that your veganism cannot help (did not help) you to determine when an action is unethical.... and you wish for more people to adopt a vegan eating style.... that is scary....

[PeacefulBe]

I still fail to see any wrong doing in Gailon's decision to post that email. There comes a time when corruption must be exposed, despite pleas to the contrary.

So, in the spirit of exposing corruption, anything that has been shared with you or Gailon in confidence is now fair game to accomplish that goal? Might that not hamper future attempts to gain information in this investigation?

Beartrap mentioned that there are lots of bombshells still under wraps. Surely there is something you are holding that could have accomplished exposing corruption without breaking a trust.

Just a thought.

[PeacefulBe]

so then its safe to say that your veganism cannot help (did not help) you to determine when an action is unethical.... and you wish for more people to adopt a vegan eating style.... that is scary....

Clay,

Perhaps it is my own veganism that has made it difficult for my mind to grasp the concept that unethical actions are okay when it brings one to the desired results. Maybe if I eat some of the tri-tip I am preparing for my husband's dinner this afternoon I will better be able to see the logic here, and my inner conflict will be settled.

PeacefulBeef