Reaping The Whirl Wind, IRS Criminal Investigation of 3ABN Options

[jakann]

I'm sorry, I know this is a bit offtopic, but this is just a brief question, brought on by what you posted above.

Are you saying you are an ordained minister and are, or have been a Pastor?
What is that point? Can you explain what you are actually trying to convey here, and what you are trying to get across to others by posting this?

Thanks for clarifying.

Ian,
I found this info on that save3abn website of Pickle's. http://www.save3abn.com/3abn-and-danny-v-j...-pickle-1-c.htm
I think it answers your question.


Larry Cansler (1986-87)
Birmingham, AL
Columbus, GA
Supervisor: Larry Cansler
Type of work: Bible instructor, Revelation Seminar presenter.
Means of termination: Accepted call to Gulf-States Conference.

Gulf States Conference (1987-90)
Montgomery, AL
Title: District Pastor
Supervisor: Jim Greek, Fred Rimer
Type of work: Typical pastoral duties.
Means of termination: Accepted call to Iowa-Missouri Conference.

Iowa-Missouri Conference (1990-97)
Des Moines, IA
Title: District Pastor
Supervisor: Carl Hartman, John Morrison, Dean Coridan
Type of work: Typical pastoral duties, church planter.
Means of termination: Accepted call to Cambodia.

Adventist Southeast Asia Projects (1996-97)
Berrien Springs, MI
Supervisor: Judy Aitken
Type of work: Was to train pastors in Cambodia.
Means of termination: Unable to get visa, unsafe for family due to coup.

Weimar Institute (1997-98)
20601 West Paoli Ln
PO Box 486
Weimar, CA 95736
Title: Professor, Recruiter, Bible teacher
Supervisor: Reinhold Tillstra, John Irvine, Dan, Wally, Marilyn Morgan
Type of work: College professor and recruiter, Academy Bible teacher, large press operation.
Means of termination: Accepted call to Eden Valley Institute.

Eden Valley Institute (1998-2001)
Loveland, CO
Title: Asst. Education Director/Education Director
Supervisor: Mike Wolford, Don Johnson, Wayne Atwood, Connie Roeske (?)
Type of work: Worked with World Missions Course, high school students, and admin., and in print shop.
Means of termination: Decided to leave.

TAGnet (2005)
CA
Supervisor: Gordon Harte
Type of work: Programming, setup of search engine.
Means of termination: Project required White Estate's search engine and database upgrade.

Ellen G. White Estate (2006)
12501 Old Columbia Pike
Silver Spring, MD 20904
Supervisor: Darryl Thompson
Type of work: Computer programming.
Means of termination: Work period ended.

[PeacefulBe]

Clay, do African-American Adventists generally feel that having regional conferences is a mistake? I've heard that folks from the Caribbean have a different take on this than do African-Americans.

But the headline "Adventist Church has regional conferences" just doesn't rouse the emotions of the public the same way that "Charges filed against Adventist televangelist" does.

Bob, I doubt you would have even asked such a question if you had done any serious personal research on the history of the Regional Conferences, or even studied the Color Line thread here on BSDA.

Perhaps someday a headline about the unnecessary death of a young black woman who was not treated in an SDA Sanitarium because of her color will rouse the emotions of the public more than one about charges being filed against a TV personality. One can only pray that someday we get our priorities straight.

[jakann]

Personally I am having a hard time understanding what Jim Gilley's income or house has to do with the 3ABN issues and concerns here.

I don't really see why it's anybody's business.

But as people, (and I'm not just picking on you) seem to be finding fault with him, and assuming the worst, then maybe the facts are needed.

Before Jim Gilley started spreading the gospel and had a ministry he started a business which was quite successful and went international. (Those interested can look it up)Before that he also had a Major League baseball contract with the Giants, which not too many know. He speaks sometimes of when he played ball but doesn't really say where or for whom so many may assume he's talking about highschool.

So being that he was blessed in such a way, he lived on that money. And yes, he seems to have had a very nice house.
That isn't a crime nor a sin.

One of the posters here who claims to know and to have worked with him quite closely had the following to say:

"For your information Jim Gilley worked many years fulltime as the Texas Conference Evangelist and
for a time as the Senior Pastor of the Arlington SDA Church for $1, I repeat one dollar as his
salary for the entire year while he ran his own business to pay for his ministry, most of the money
that funded the supplies and equipment for that ministry came out of his own pocket."

http://www.blacksda.com/forums/index.php?s...st&p=217412

From what I know and have seen he's a good, down to earth, man who loves the Lord, and others demonstrated by his dedication and big heart.

He doesn't deserve all this ire and finger pointing.

Nor does anyone. We really need to learn to stick to facts and refuse to speculate or surmise evil of another.

Oh, I'm fully aware that Pastor Gilley has worked for $1 a year in the past. Was that his salary at Dallas First, as well? Did the $1 include a matching $1 a year in employer retirement contributions? (Okay, I probably shouldn't have said that!) And why just $1? Why not $100? Better yet, $0!

I would be interested in exploring with you the wider theological aspects of the shepherd/sheep relationship. The shepherd provides for the sheep: shelter; fodder; protection. And the sheep provide for the shepherd: wool, meat. I think this theme is repeated in various forms throughout scripture.

My point is this: A pastor does many of the same things for his flock. He brings them the bread of life and provides a place of eternal safety for them. In turn, the flock provides and sustains the shepherd over them in the way of tithes and offerings.

YOu can see it around the world, where truth is not preached, tithing decreases and people leave the church. And the corollary is true. While not condemning Pastor Gilley for his $1 a year thing I think that he might be missing a blessing and an opportunity to have his heart bound up more closely with those he is shepherding. What are your thoughts?
p.s. You indicated that Pastor Gilley had earned his money before entering the ministry. So you would agree that it would not now be appropriate for him to be conducting a side business while leading 3ABN? That is, do you think that the Presidency of 3ABN is a part-time job?
My Bible says that the harvest is great and the workers are few. My generalized feeling is that welders should weld, teachers should teach, and pastors should pastor.

[LaurenceD]

Again I ask what is the best way to help the needy? Giving them a handout or spending your money on something (like a new house) so they are employed?

Sorry, wasn't sure how to answer since EGW's solution was included as she quoted several passages from the Bible on what to do with the extra gravy. But here's another text which should cut right to the core on what is best for "believers" to do with the mammon of unrighteousness...

Acts 2:43-45 Everyone around was in awe—all those wonders and signs done through the apostles! And all the believers lived in a wonderful harmony, holding everything in common. They sold whatever they owned and pooled their resources so that each person's need was met.

[LaurenceD]

Now, if only Pickle, Joy, and 3abn would do just that (along with some of us)...oops...I'm dreaming again in impossible unrealities.

[Fran]

Very well said!

Is it wrong to lie? Danny came to BlackSDA UNSOLICITED and told a number of bald faced lies. Danny brought his business here, we did not seek it out.

You are right it is an every day thing for folks, even Adventists, to get divorced. However, the lies he told brought his personal issues to the fore because Danny, the televagnelist with a world wide ministry, first publicly then on the world wide web "claimed" he loved his wife and came to solicit for his efforts to save his marriage. Then soon there after he put to pasture the marriage he claimed to want saved and the wife of his youth for a youngerr filly.

You are right HH, it is not illegal to make money in the U.S. The questions I have to ask are these... is it moral to take money from people who believe they are giving those funds to an actual legally affiliated church ministry, based on the claims made by said ministry?

Has, and does, Danny's ministry accept "tithes" from members of the Adventist church under the guise, though not speciifically stated, of being a ministry that has an affiliation with the Adventist church?

Is it possible that hundreds, thousands or possibly millions, of people would have thought twice about supporting his independent ministry, to the extent that they have, had they been aware, from the start, that it is with no specific affiliation with the Adventist church?

True, it may not be illegal to mislead, and or, misrepresent facts so that said ministry will make a profit off of all of those gullable people. True, it may not be illegal however, it does not make it right by any stretch of the imagination but, as one "claiming" to be a minister of the gospel of Christ Jesus the behavior he and those who have supported him have shown they have no problem misrepresenting themselves for profit.

Jesus holds us to a higher standard then the legal system of man. And yes, Danny will reap what he has sown here, if he does not repent and make things right, befor our Father in Heaven shows up.

The geinie is out of the bottle because Danny did a number of things wrong. Then to add insult to injury the lies and misrepresention of facts continue because face it. To admit the truth he would loose everything. He would stop being "famous" and become infamous.

in·fa·mous [in-fuh-muhs] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective 1. having an extremely bad reputation: an infamous city.
2. deserving of or causing an evil reputation; shamefully malign; detestable: an infamous deed.

But hey, that's just my take on what has been brought to our attention by the "brother".

And we haven't even touched on the the issues of the souls that will be, and have been affected negatively, by any misrepresentation of the facts. Or, how the Adventists churches credibility has been compremised, based on the actions of those who have misrepresentd facts

[appletree]

Feel free to read my answers to the interrogatories.


The aunt of a dear friend of mine defended the terminated trust services four, her former colleagues, by writing a letter to the 3ABN Board. One of her complaints was that Mollie had stayed with the Westphals when doing her investigation, which had compromised her ability to be neutral. I would not have thought of that.

But consider the potential conflict of interest to have to deal with a wayward ex-president and director when he holds the mortgage on your house. Can Gilley be neutral and do what needs to be done? He's in an awkward spot when the mortgage as filed at the courthouse has no payment terms. Could Danny demand payment in full if Gilley doesn't do what Danny tells him to do? It's an unwise position for Gilley to have put himself in, in my opinion.

Yet the possibility exists that it was unintentional, and that Gilley expected his house to sell quickly. By saying that I'm trying to give him the benefit of the doubt as far as possible.

When Gilley put his house up for sale, I'm sure he felt like I would have felt: excited about the possibility of having the whole world see pictures of my house. He certainly hasn't asked the realtor to take the pcitures down, and it wouldn't be too bright for him to do so.

Are we speculating again? And in error as usual? I happen to be aware of a meeting between Jim, Danny and an attorney in southern Illinois where Danny received payment for his house.
So, tell me...how is Jim in a "conflict of interest situation?"

Changing the subject, last night I posted the errors, lies, whatever you want to call them that I found in your buddy Joy's big IRS statements. It was late and I was tired and therefore just named a few. (Actually more than a few) but anyway, I'm not as tired tonight so think I will show a few more.

Danny has a bank account in Michigan......FALSE Absolute LIE...never happened.
HE never had any bank account hidden from Linda, much less one with 190,000.00 in it. (I'm sure he wished that one was true.) So there goes all the speculation that followed about him planning a divorce.

I might have mentioned in the other post but will say it again.....the most recent board meeting had nothing to do with the IRS.

One thing lacking in Mr. Joy's story about Westphaul is that the group that the employees called to come and investigate (I believe there were only 4 employees) dropped the investigation for lack of evidence and substantiation of claims. To you, Mr. Pickle, I find your statement that Mollie would be biased IF, and I say if, she did stay at their house. Now if she was homeless and living in a shelter and that was the only place she had to go..then she might be partial...Since we know that isn't the case and she could have stayed in a hotel (that is assuming she didn't...one never knows with all the faulty info you guy's put out) the whole week she spent there. Nope. Sorry. Doesn't hold water.

On a personal note....Does all the faulty stuff that Joy put's out not put some doubt in your mind about his motives and unbiblical actions? Time and time again he has made public accusations, financial information and moral finger pointing that has been totally and completely false. This IRS letter is just one example. Surely these things must give you pause. You need to stop blindly following him and allowing him to manipulate you with his blow and go and start thinking for yourself.

[appletree]

Interrogatory #8 says, "Describe in detail and with particularity ... a description of the accounting process You conclude 3ABN failed to set up and the basis upon which You conclude that the accounting process You describe to be appropriate ...."

Wow! 3ABN and Danny want me to critique 3ABN's accounting system? I'm unsure that our answer to their complaint necessarily meant that, but this is what they've asked us to come up with.

As far as Danny building his house, there are multiple issues. Once clear one is the purported gift of the land the house is being built on. The lawsuit basically sets us up to have to prove that Danny has engaged in private inurement. That's how we have to defend ourselves. We have to prove that kind of thing. And the purported gift of around 40 acres is evidence of that kind of thing.

I have decided that you actually live in an altered reality somewhere. 3abn wants your critique? Right. In layman's language they are saying to prove your allegations. Which you can't. As far as property goes you have no idea if there is land titled to Danny or not. If it was a gift from the board, or not...or, better yet, if it is even 40 acres or not. You don't know if Danny purchased land from them...or not. Let me just say if the board did decide to give or sell him property ..don't you think they would have conferred with attorney's about the logistics of whether they could do it or not? And even if you wanted to try and use property as your beef, what does that have to do with the house and it's square footage or how much was estimated on a building permit? Absolutely nothing.

When will you stop trying to make something out of nothing to try and back your untrue allegations? IMO, the biggest reason Joy has claimed bankruptcy is because it takes a lot of time to try and prove claims that don't exist. I guess he didn't have time to run his "financial counseling" business.

[appletree]

I'm sorry, I know this is a bit offtopic, but this is just a brief question, brought on by what you posted above.

Are you saying you are an ordained minister and are, or have been a Pastor?
What is that point? Can you explain what you are actually trying to convey here, and what you are trying to get across to others by posting this?

Thanks for clarifying.

Ian, let me help you out here. You will find there will be no clarification on your Pastor question. This question has been put to him several times in the past and for some strange reason, he refuses to answer with a simple yes he is a pastor or no he isn't. Now in the present church that his family attends, he was an elder. It is my understanding he was removed from that position several months back. Wonder if it had anything to do with what he is doing to 3abn? I don't know for sure. Pickle does.

[appletree]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that divorce of an Adventist couple for non-biblical reasons when legal separation is an option can be considered grounds for church discipline in the Adventist Church. So I don't think the church allows for this kind of divorce that occurred.

I will correct you since you hold no proof, concerning the couple involved, that the divorce wasn't for adultery. That is obviously what you have been told. Doesn't make it true and yet, you have followed that accusation with many others based on heresay that adultery wasn't a factor. Just following the herd again...same old pattern.

[appletree]

Darn those publicly available documents...can't seem to get away with anything.

So, appletree, if DS doesn't even know if he is building it himself or contracting it out, I wonder how he came up with a cost of $165,000? Any ideas?? You know, I hear that Franklin County just recently began requiring building permits - like in the last couple of months. I wonder what might have prompted them to do that?

He came up with that figure the way everyone does. An estimation. When you are doing a lot of the work yourself, you can't possibly know, down to the penny how much a house is going to cost when completed. So, one makes an estimation of the cost. I don't believe Joy called it an "estimation" he quoted it as fact.

You have posted this information with some smugness IMO like that you really sprang something on me here. Please....If you think Danny or myself, or anyone else involved with 3abn didn't know that this estimation on the permit would be made public within hours of the action, you are not thinking clearly. There are people that "work" for those on your side that make trips to the court house everytime Danny does, to get access to any public records involving him or 3abn, no matter how unimportant. (As this surely is) Some go online to dig. We are always aware. We just don't care....I'm a poet and don't know it.... My point was that Joy takes speculation, estimation, and conjecture and puts it out as fact. Shame shame on him. Shame on Pickle for even trying to find out if Elder Gilley's house has sold and how much he paid for Danny's house etc etc. Once again, what is the motive for wanting to know about Elder Gilley's texas house? How does that slay the dragon that your side claims to be slaying...in God's name I might add. I truly wouldn't want to be their position. And you shouldn't want to be there either.

This post has been edited by appletree: Dec 4 2007, 01:46 AM

[Clay]

It is not my problem. However, it is a concern to me because I happen to have been a donor at one time and I am very unhappy with the way I see money being spent there. Is that a problem for you?????

BTW....respectfully....how and when did this become a racial issue????? I am sensing another agenda here. If you don't want the topic being discussed anymore, why not just shut down the whole sub-forum???

if people are unhappy about how money is spent then they withdraw that support.... the continuous dissecting and speculating about Mr. Shelton's every move is for what?

You mentioned embarrassment to the church. There are many things that the church condones that if made public would create embarrassment, which is why I mentioned regional conferences, its not a color issue, unless you wish to make it one....

I have no agenda other than sharing my opinion, which is what I have done..... as for this particular sub-forum, it's clear that there is little NEW to discuss... so the constant ruminating (this is the definition I have in mind: intransitive verb chew partially digested food: to regurgitate partially digested food and chew it again) serves what purpose? That is what I have asked...

[Clay]

Clay, do African-American Adventists generally feel that having regional conferences is a mistake? I've heard that folks from the Caribbean have a different take on this than do African-Americans.

I don't speak for all black adventists..... Caribbean adventists might have a different take and your point would be what? White adventists have a different take too, in fact some have believed the spin that it was black people who pushed for black conferences back in the day....

But the headline "Adventist Church has regional conferences" just doesn't rouse the emotions of the public the same way that "Charges filed against Adventist televangelist" does.

the headline would not be Adventist Church as regional conferences, it might be more like, Adventist church still separates itself based on color decades after integration. Or Adventist church still practices separate but equal...... As I said before, IMO Mr. Shelton is not large on the nation's radar to cause a reaction other than in adventist circles.... its important to some adventists....

[Pickle]

I will correct you since you hold no proof, concerning the couple involved, that the divorce wasn't for adultery. That is obviously what you have been told. Doesn't make it true and yet, you have followed that accusation with many others based on heresay that adultery wasn't a factor. Just following the herd again...same old pattern.

I will correct you since you hold no proof, and expect as usual that you will refuse to acknowledge your mistake, something no Seventh-day Adventist or person associated with 3ABN should ever be afraid to do.

See "July 17, 2004: 'Linda, I Still Don't Have Proof of Fornication' & 'God and Me Will Always Know the Truth!' " where Danny stated on July 17, 2004, nearly a month after the divorce,

"After two vacations with him in Springfield, the second one without Johann tagging along, and now a several week vacation with him in Scandinavia as well as possibly here in the USA, you will, if you have not already, end up in bed with him. That's all he's been after since the beginning."

When Danny said "if," he was admitting that he didn't know. Therefore, he divorced Linda without biblical grounds, since he didn't know whether or not she had committed fornication.

Are you saying that taking Danny's word is hearsay? Are you saying that Danny's word is not proof? On what basis? If we can't believe Danny on this one simple point, how can we believe anything the guy says?

[Pickle]

Shame on Pickle for even trying to find out if Elder Gilley's house has sold and how much he paid for Danny's house etc etc.

You've gone beyond the stated facts, and contradicted them as well. I did not try to find out whether Gilley's house had sold, and I believe that is suggested by my original post.