Reaping The Whirl Wind, IRS Criminal Investigation of 3ABN Options

[Shepherdswife]

I wonder where we can find out what the average pay is, not starting pay but average? Any ideas? I'm going on mostly what my wife was getting when she quit teaching 5 years ago and the understanding that teachers and preachers were paid pretty close to the same.

Richard

Add about 20-25%, not counting value of health insurance and education subsidy...for those who have been in it at least 10 years and you will be in the ballpark.

[Clay]

Unbelievable.

Well, I am an independent person, so I guess I don't have to abide by the laws of the land.

do or don't... eventually you'll get caught if you choose not to... so the issue is what?

[Clay]

Are you KIDDING??? I guess if the loss of tax-exempt status is not a problem, there is no "big deal". This from the IRS:
What activities can jeopardize tax-exempt status?
For 501©(3)s, the four main activities that can jeopardize the organization’s tax-exempt status are:
activity that results in private benefit or inurement;
lobbying activity, if it constitutes a substantial part of the organization’s overall activities or if it exceeds a predetermined dollar amount;
any political campaign activity; and
unrelated business activity that is substantial when compared with the organization’s exempt-function activities.
What is private benefit?
Private benefit occurs when an individual or organization receives a benefit—monetary or nonmonetary—from a 501©(3) organization. A tax-exempt organization that provides a substantial amount of private benefit may risk losing its tax-exempt status. (This does not include paying reasonable salaries or providing services to individuals as part of an organization’s exempt-function activities.)
What is inurement?
Inurement occurs when an “insider” of an exempt organization receives any of an organization’s net income or inappropriately uses any of its assets for personal gain. An insider is a person who has a personal and private interest in the activities of an organization. Examples are officers, directors, and key employees. Any amount of inurement, no matter how small, can jeopardize an organization’s tax-exempt status. (This does not include paying reasonable salaries or providing services to individuals as part of an organization’s exempt-function activities.)
What is the difference between private benefit and inurement?
Inurement is a subset of private benefit and deals specifically with insiders, while private benefit can be to both insiders and outsiders. Both terms describe situations in which an exempt organization’s income or assets are inappropriately diverted for private gain rather than used for a public purpose.
Based on the above, it is very apparent that both 3ABN and Remnant are traveling a road that could potentially end with the revocation of their tax-exempt status. This could result in penalties and interest in the 7 digit range, possibly wiping out either or both and bring serious embarrassment to the church. Oh that's right - they are non-denominational. OK, forget that last one...

and this is your problem because what? if they lose it, they lose it... embarrassment to the church? If continuing to have separate conferences based on color is not embarrassment enough you think a financial issue for an independent ministry will be? I don't think so....

[Pickle]

Are you saying you are an ordained minister and are, or have been a Pastor?

Feel free to read my answers to the interrogatories.

What is that point? Can you explain what you are actually trying to convey here, and what you are trying to get across to others by posting this?

Thanks for clarifying.

The aunt of a dear friend of mine defended the terminated trust services four, her former colleagues, by writing a letter to the 3ABN Board. One of her complaints was that Mollie had stayed with the Westphals when doing her investigation, which had compromised her ability to be neutral. I would not have thought of that.

But consider the potential conflict of interest to have to deal with a wayward ex-president and director when he holds the mortgage on your house. Can Gilley be neutral and do what needs to be done? He's in an awkward spot when the mortgage as filed at the courthouse has no payment terms. Could Danny demand payment in full if Gilley doesn't do what Danny tells him to do? It's an unwise position for Gilley to have put himself in, in my opinion.

Yet the possibility exists that it was unintentional, and that Gilley expected his house to sell quickly. By saying that I'm trying to give him the benefit of the doubt as far as possible.

When Gilley put his house up for sale, I'm sure he felt like I would have felt: excited about the possibility of having the whole world see pictures of my house. He certainly hasn't asked the realtor to take the pcitures down, and it wouldn't be too bright for him to do so.

[HUGGINS130]

This is off topic but
Clay Said:

and this is your problem because what? if they lose it, they lose it... embarrassment to the church? If continuing to have separate conferences based on color is not embarrassment enough you think a financial issue for an independent ministry will be? I don't think so....

Will this issue ever be addressed...do they really think of the Regional Conferences as being separate or is it just that the mission field will be different...blacks will try to reach blacks, while whites will reach the whites, and the latinos will reach the latinos while the Asians will reach the asians...is the conference issue really worth discussing?

[Pickle]

what house he is building is your business? are you serious? his lawsuit was in response to something you and your friend initiated was it not? He did not out of the blue say to himself... hmmmm I think I'll sue Pickle....

Interrogatory #8 says, "Describe in detail and with particularity ... a description of the accounting process You conclude 3ABN failed to set up and the basis upon which You conclude that the accounting process You describe to be appropriate ...."

Wow! 3ABN and Danny want me to critique 3ABN's accounting system? I'm unsure that our answer to their complaint necessarily meant that, but this is what they've asked us to come up with.

As far as Danny building his house, there are multiple issues. Once clear one is the purported gift of the land the house is being built on. The lawsuit basically sets us up to have to prove that Danny has engaged in private inurement. That's how we have to defend ourselves. We have to prove that kind of thing. And the purported gift of around 40 acres is evidence of that kind of thing.

[Pickle]

aren't we about there?

I hope so. yet the trial date isn't until 2009.

[Pickle]

Again I ask what is the best way to help the needy? Giving them a handout or spending your money on something (like a new house) so they are employed?

There actually may be other, better options.

If you were building a house like that, would you employ the needy? Or would you employ skilled artisans?

I know some folks who built a rather nice home, and I got to take a look. I was able to point out some things that it looked like weren't being done right. In other words, you generally want someone who knows what they are doing if they are building a house like that.

It is intriguing, however, that Ellen White counseled us to provide jobs for those who lost their jobs over the Sabbath. I seem to recall that health food factories were supposed to be built throughout the South for that purpose. Have we done much of this as a people, established industries to provide work for the needy, to give skills to those who want to learn, to provide work for those who get fired over the Sabbath?

[Pickle]

and this is your problem because what? if they lose it, they lose it... embarrassment to the church? If continuing to have separate conferences based on color is not embarrassment enough you think a financial issue for an independent ministry will be? I don't think so....

Clay, do African-American Adventists generally feel that having regional conferences is a mistake? I've heard that folks from the Caribbean have a different take on this than do African-Americans.

But the headline "Adventist Church has regional conferences" just doesn't rouse the emotions of the public the same way that "Charges filed against Adventist televangelist" does.

[Snoopy]

and this is your problem because what? if they lose it, they lose it... embarrassment to the church? If continuing to have separate conferences based on color is not embarrassment enough you think a financial issue for an independent ministry will be? I don't think so....

It is not my problem. However, it is a concern to me because I happen to have been a donor at one time and I am very unhappy with the way I see money being spent there. Is that a problem for you?????

BTW....respectfully....how and when did this become a racial issue????? I am sensing another agenda here. If you don't want the topic being discussed anymore, why not just shut down the whole sub-forum???

[Richard Sherwin]

And what do those skilled artisans do with their money? Buy more stuff, stuff made by? Trickle down economics.

There actually may be other, better options.

If you were building a house like that, would you employ the needy? Or would you employ skilled artisans?

I know some folks who built a rather nice home, and I got to take a look. I was able to point out some things that it looked like weren't being done right. In other words, you generally want someone who knows what they are doing if they are building a house like that.

It is intriguing, however, that Ellen White counseled us to provide jobs for those who lost their jobs over the Sabbath. I seem to recall that health food factories were supposed to be built throughout the South for that purpose. Have we done much of this as a people, established industries to provide work for the needy, to give skills to those who want to learn, to provide work for those who get fired over the Sabbath?

[Richard Sherwin]

So $45-$50 thousand per year?

Add about 20-25%, not counting value of health insurance and education subsidy...for those who have been in it at least 10 years and you will be in the ballpark.

[Shepherdswife]

I seem to recall that health food factories were supposed to be built throughout the South for that purpose. Have we done much of this as a people, established industries to provide work for the needy, to give skills to those who want to learn, to provide work for those who get fired over the Sabbath?

Does Little Debbie count?

[PeacefulBe]

I am surprised that people continue to attempt to try this issue in the court of public opinion... IF there was wrongdoing, was it reported, if it was reported did it go through the court system, if so what were the results. If they were not favorable there is always a civil suit... if the person or persons are not willing to go that route then what is left? To continue talking about it here? I don't think so, there are local support groups that can help victims deal with the fallout from this type of abuse... The solutions are simple, at some point people will have to actually take action.... it may be difficult to take that first step....

As for suggesting that I have no clue or empathy towards victims of abuse, you would be wrong... and you need not go there to make your point....

We have discussed before how seldom sexual abuse gets reported and have also discussed many of the reasons why this happens. Once it gets into the courts, certainly it may become a simple solution. That very first step is often so difficult as to be prohibitive. Without the exposure of this investigation and the "court of public opinion" Duane might still be trapped in the role of victim. He has broken free now, a task that he was hesitant to even start. Others may find their way out, as well, due to this (if there are others, as has been reported by those involved in this investigation and Duane, as well). When abusive behavior is no longer cloaked in secrecy, the sick system begins to break down. This can create a climate that is more conducive for victims to find the power needed to take that first difficult step.

I was certainly not questioning your empathy towards victims of abuse, only the seemingly dismissive manner in which you were characterizing how simple the solution should be for victims to get their vindication in the courts.

[jakann]

Welcome, Jakann.

So you don't take this the wrong way, what I'm about to reply with is not personal in any way ... but at BSDA we tend to push points a bit and call people on assumptions, etc. (Ha! I just typed ect.)
Have you ever been there?

How about getting a call at 2 AM, not about a death, but about an obscure passage in the OT prophets?
Entirely appropriate to the people in the context to which she wrote. Beyond that, we have to extract principles.



Do you believe in the Reformation concept of the "priesthood of all believers"? Put another way, can you show me in the Bible where it says New Testament pastors are the equivalent of OT Levites? Can you show me where New Testament pastors were tithe-supported? I just looked but I might have missed something ...
We can agree that making money was never the point, but working so as not to be a burden to others was. 1 Thessalonians 2:9 bears this out.
Out of context.
If we're not to use biblical examples, what's the point of this discussion? We agree that the point is not making money for its own sake, but Christians, including pastors, can and should do what they can to financially benefit the cause of God. That's what Paul did with his tentmaker stuff, and still managed to be in full time ministry.

I'm not familiar with how to do replies/quotes that well here yet so bear with me. So, I'll have to answer your questions one by one.

-"How about getting a call at 2 AM, not about a death, but about an obscure passage in the OT prophets?" You may have read my earlier post to another individual where I said that the elders and others in church need to assume a greater role so that pastors would not have to take calls at 2 AM.
-No, I don't believe in the Reformation concept of the "priesthood of all believers". I believe in the Biblical model of church organization upon which God has used to set up our church. Sure, we've strayed from it a bit here and there. But the foundation is solid.
-"Can you show me where New Testament pastors were tithe-supported?" Of course, I could give you hundreds and hundreds of names. Just look in any SDA Yearbook. You'll find scores of pastors in there that are tithe-supported. And we are a New Testament church, are we not?
-"If we're not to use biblical examples, what's the point of this discussion?" Please notice that I gave a solid Biblical example but you, inaccurately, said that it was out of context. Why is it that Peter said he had no silver or gold?
Blessings!