Reaping The Whirl Wind, IRS Criminal Investigation of 3ABN Options

[princessdi]

No, you don't sound critical in this post at all. You did not need to be critical of Pastor Gillwy's home when you posted it and it's market value for those to get the message, though. That is what I mean about you not exactly projecting hte image you want. Your house osunds wonderful and I have often dreammed of buying an older home, along with hieriting the funds to renovate it. But we know that will not happen in Calfornia, either! LOL!!

[/color]
I found it helpful to share soul winning experiences with my congregations. I wanted to inpisre them to work for God.

A side benefit that materialized was that they somehow got the idea that I was super busy, and were hesitant to bother me.

Now that last district of 6 counties where we blanketed four with Bible study enrollment cards, yes, that was busy.
I appreciate your words of wisdom. But do note that I said nothing critical of his home, and they were already publicly available by his permission. Nick's letter was not publicly available.

I actually had a rather large home myself. 10' ceilings on the first floor. 9' ceilings on the second floor. Those two floors were 2660 sq. ft. Then we had an almost full basement that had 2' thick stone walls and joists about 9' up on top of 8 x 8 posts, and a floored attic that could have made another floor with its dormers and windows. There were four staircases. Ornate woodwork. Stained glass windows. A front door with a frosted window that had a scene with some deer on it. Four acres. A 40 x 80 barn. A 24 x 24 or so garage. And a little bit more.

Bought it in 1993 I think. $45,000. So you know it was not in California.

It was built in 1904 or 1909. Strange thing is that it seems that after the Great Depression hit, houses didn't get built as big. That's been my impression. But the further away that catastrophe gets, the bigger they get. I rather think that if we have another one, most of us will look at the subject a bit differently.

There is something about the penny pinching required to get through a major depression that trains kids as well as adults to view the topic of stewardship a bit differently.

Now I hope I said all that without coming across critical.

[Richard Sherwin]

I see several things on these threads. One is that we need to pay our pastors more, but then again we don't have enough money to employ all the graduates from the seminary and then others on here are saying we are no longer required to pay a tithe. So I suppose we could lay off some pastors, and then raise the pay for the remaining and give them some more churches. Or we could try to get more people to pay an honest tithe, then we could pay more to our pastors and employ all the young people coming out of the seminary.

And while I think that our pastors and teachers have very good benefits and not bad pay, 35-40 grand, (a lot of people would be tickled to get that) it would be great if we could pay them a better wage.

Richard

[color="#006400"]Richard, I think there is more of a expectancy that they are "available" 24/7, even though they may not work those hors. most of the time. I mean you can't be on top of things for a death bed call at 3am, if you just got to bed at midnight from your "other" job, right? I am of the mind that we still need to pay for that expected availablity. God did witht he Levites, as they obviously had families, etc. However, He wanted them Avalable so He gave them the tithe of the other 11 tribes so they would not have to work. We need to do the same.

[Ian]

I found it helpful to share soul winning experiences with my congregations. I wanted to inpisre them to work for God.

A side benefit that materialized was that they somehow got the idea that I was super busy, and were hesitant to bother me...

I'm sorry, I know this is a bit offtopic, but this is just a brief question, brought on by what you posted above.

Are you saying you are an ordained minister and are, or have been a Pastor?

I hope everyone doesn't forget the point that Danny holds a mortgage on Gilley's IL house, that the mortgage was supposed to mature in one month which has now passed, and that according to publicly available information that all the world can see elsewhere, either made public by law or by Gilley's choice, Gilley's TX house has not sold.

What is that point? Can you explain what you are actually trying to convey here, and what you are trying to get across to others by posting this?

Thanks for clarifying.

This post has been edited by Ian: Dec 3 2007, 07:26 PM

[Clay]

You forget. Danny filed suit against me on April 5, 2007, making very specific allegations. By requiring me to defend myself, he has made some things my business that would not necessarily be otherwise.

what house he is building is your business? are you serious? his lawsuit was in response to something you and your friend initiated was it not? He did not out of the blue say to himself... hmmmm I think I'll sue Pickle....

[Clay]

Well the difference for me is that these large retail corporations aren't the "face of the Adventist Church", my church, my face. They don't claim to be religious. They don't claim to represent me. I vote with my dollars by buying or not buying their products.

I no longer will give money to 3ABN until I think that it will go where it is intended. That isn't enough to cancel or reverse my vote (influence) favoring them. They can still get money that I give to the church. It can go to them indirectly through agencies the SDA church such as the Illinois Conference whose leaders decide what ministries to endorse. Must I remove my membership from the church as a protest or can I bring about change from within? Every time persons of influence within the church speak in support of 3ABN, people may assume that is the position of the church and that I as an Adventist support that position and approve of what is done at 3ABN.

Because injustice runs rampant does not excuse our encouraging it or looking the other way. If those who came before us had done that, we would be living in a far worse world than we do now. Not that it is that great but it could be worse. I do not feel that it is beating a dead horse to be persistant until we see the changes that are needed. I believe the changes will come. But not if we become discouraged and throw in the towel.

Danny Shelton was never the "face of adventism" and has never represented me... and IF he was perceived as such, he should not have been....

there is a limit to how persistent people should be in this situation in my opinion... what's next? peeping in his window? going through his trash? 3abn is an independent ministry they can do what they choose to do... if people don't like it, stop supporting it....

[princessdi]

I think Psych and job Evaluations will go a long way in "thinning" out the field for new graduates. Also, the number of new graduates could be thinned by a few psych evals. I am sure we all remember the one who wnet left on his instructor recently. As it stands we take who ever applies for the major.......and finishes the courses.

I see several things on these threads. One is that we need to pay our pastors more, but then again we don't have enough money to employ all the graduates from the seminary and then others on here are saying we are no longer required to pay a tithe. So I suppose we could lay off some pastors, and then raise the pay for the remaining and give them some more churches. Or we could try to get more people to pay an honest tithe, then we could pay more to our pastors and employ all the young people coming out of the seminary.

And while I think that our pastors and teachers have very good benefits and not bad pay, 35-40 grand, (a lot of people would be tickled to get that) it would be great if we could pay them a better wage.

Richard

[LaurenceD]

Please stop.

A deeper and more perceptive wisdom isn't intended for everyone, perhaps only those who have ears will hear...

Mat 8:20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests;
but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

Look at the life of many who claim to be Christians. The Lord has endowed them with capabilities, and power, and influence;
He has entrusted them with money, that they may be co-workers with Him in the great redemption.
All His gifts are to be used in blessing humanity, in relieving the suffering and the needy.
We are to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to care for the widow and the fatherless,
to minister to the distressed and downtrodden. God never meant that the widespread misery in the world should exist.
He never meant that one man should have an abundance of the luxuries of life, while the children of others should cry for bread.
The means over and above the actual necessities of life are entrusted to man to do good, to bless humanity.
The Lord says, "Sell that ye have, and give alms." Luke 12:33. Be "ready to distribute, willing to communicate." 1 Tim. 6:18.
"When thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind." Luke 14:13. "Loose the bands of wickedness,"
"undo the heavy burdens," "let the oppressed go free"

Alas, how many are appropriating to themselves the gifts of God! How many are adding house to house and land to land.
How many are spending their money for pleasure, for the gratification of appetite, for extravagant houses, furniture, and dress.
Their fellow beings are left to misery and crime, to disease and death. Multitudes are perishing without one pitying look, one word or deed of sympathy.

Men are guilty of robbery toward God. Their selfish use of means robs the Lord of the glory that should be reflected back to Him in the relief of suffering humanity and the salvation of souls.
They are embezzling His entrusted goods. COL 371

Notice EGW deson't name names either.

So sorry, let the deaf continue to add house to house and embezzlers embezzle the embezzled. Carry on.

[Clay]

If Danny Shelton knew of the abuse of Mr. Clem or others and/or helped to cover it up, this needs to be exposed. Every person who knew and remained quiet is a party to the abuse.

I realize that the 3abn discussion is becoming tiring and is traveling off into areas that would be best left alone instead of concentrating on what is of import to expose. I hope that Bob and others will take the hint and adjust the flow of information accordingly. And yet, Clay, I have to say I'm a bit surprised that someone of your intelligence and experience would comment as you have on the subject of the claimed victimization of young men. Perhaps this is how simple the solution appears from outside of the cycle of abuse. It is far less cut and dried for those of us who have been abused and understand how hard it is to break free of the intimidation and manipulation the sick system provides.

I am surprised that people continue to attempt to try this issue in the court of public opinion... IF there was wrongdoing, was it reported, if it was reported did it go through the court system, if so what were the results. If they were not favorable there is always a civil suit... if the person or persons are not willing to go that route then what is left? To continue talking about it here? I don't think so, there are local support groups that can help victims deal with the fallout from this type of abuse... The solutions are simple, at some point people will have to actually take action.... it may be difficult to take that first step....

As for suggesting that I have no clue or empathy towards victims of abuse, you would be wrong... and you need not go there to make your point....

[Snoopy]

if Mr. Shelton was able to accrue personal financial benefits within the guidelines of a nonprofit .org what is the big deal? If he did something wrong report it, if the reporting agencies don't find anything wrong why continue to beat a dead horse...

Are you KIDDING??? I guess if the loss of tax-exempt status is not a problem, there is no "big deal". This from the IRS:


What activities can jeopardize tax-exempt status?
For 501©(3)s, the four main activities that can jeopardize the organization’s tax-exempt status are:
activity that results in private benefit or inurement;
lobbying activity, if it constitutes a substantial part of the organization’s overall activities or if it exceeds a predetermined dollar amount;
any political campaign activity; and
unrelated business activity that is substantial when compared with the organization’s exempt-function activities.


What is private benefit?
Private benefit occurs when an individual or organization receives a benefit—monetary or nonmonetary—from a 501©(3) organization. A tax-exempt organization that provides a substantial amount of private benefit may risk losing its tax-exempt status. (This does not include paying reasonable salaries or providing services to individuals as part of an organization’s exempt-function activities.)


What is inurement?
Inurement occurs when an “insider” of an exempt organization receives any of an organization’s net income or inappropriately uses any of its assets for personal gain. An insider is a person who has a personal and private interest in the activities of an organization. Examples are officers, directors, and key employees. Any amount of inurement, no matter how small, can jeopardize an organization’s tax-exempt status. (This does not include paying reasonable salaries or providing services to individuals as part of an organization’s exempt-function activities.)


What is the difference between private benefit and inurement?
Inurement is a subset of private benefit and deals specifically with insiders, while private benefit can be to both insiders and outsiders. Both terms describe situations in which an exempt organization’s income or assets are inappropriately diverted for private gain rather than used for a public purpose.


Based on the above, it is very apparent that both 3ABN and Remnant are traveling a road that could potentially end with the revocation of their tax-exempt status. This could result in penalties and interest in the 7 digit range, possibly wiping out either or both and bring serious embarrassment to the church. Oh that's right - they are non-denominational. OK, forget that last one...

[Clay]

Is it wrong to lie? Danny came to BlackSDA UNSOLICITED and told a number of bald faced lies. Danny brought his business here, we did not seek it out.

You are right it is an every day thing for folks, even Adventists, to get divorced. However, the lies he told brought his personal issues to the fore because Danny, the televagnelist with a world wide ministry, first publicly then on the world wide web "claimed" he loved his wife and came to solicit for his efforts to save his marriage. Then soon there after he put to pasture the marriage he claimed to want saved and the wife of his youth for a youngerr filly.

You are right HH, it is not illegal to make money in the U.S. The questions I have to ask are these... is it moral to take money from people who believe they are giving those funds to an actual legally affiliated church ministry, based on the claims made by said ministry?

Has, and does, Danny's ministry accept "tithes" from members of the Adventist church under the guise, though not speciifically stated, of being a ministry that has an affiliation with the Adventist church?

Is it possible that hundreds, thousands or possibly millions, of people would have thought twice about supporting his independent ministry, to the extent that they have, had they been aware, from the start, that it is with no specific affiliation with the Adventist church?

True, it may not be illegal to mislead, and or, misrepresent facts so that said ministry will make a profit off of all of those gullable people. True, it may not be illegal however, it does not make it right by any stretch of the imagination but, as one "claiming" to be a minister of the gospel of Christ Jesus the behavior he and those who have supported him have shown they have no problem misrepresenting themselves for profit.

Jesus holds us to a higher standard then the legal system of man. And yes, Danny will reap what he has sown here, if he does not repent and make things right, befor our Father in Heaven shows up.

The geinie is out of the bottle because Danny did a number of things wrong. Then to add insult to injury the lies and misrepresention of facts continue because face it. To admit the truth he would loose everything. He would stop being "famous" and become infamous.

in·fa·mous [in-fuh-muhs] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective 1. having an extremely bad reputation: an infamous city.
2. deserving of or causing an evil reputation; shamefully malign; detestable: an infamous deed.

But hey, that's just my take on what has been brought to our attention by the "brother".

And we haven't even touched on the the issues of the souls that will be, and have been affected negatively, by any misrepresentation of the facts. Or, how the Adventists churches credibility has been compremised, based on the actions of those who have misrepresentd facts

then those folks need to stop supporting him... I think its clear from the multitude of threads and comments here that there is enough info for people to make up their minds to or not to support 3abn.... in spite of all the info, people are going to believe what they believe.... so there is a limit IMO of the effectiveness of continuing to find things about Mr. Shelton to talk about.... you know I could careless, I don't send money, don't watch 3abn, and I don't know anyone in my circle of friends who do.... I am just saying at some point it should be enough... aren't we about there?

[Snoopy]

I see several things on these threads. One is that we need to pay our pastors more, but then again we don't have enough money to employ all the graduates from the seminary and then others on here are saying we are no longer required to pay a tithe. So I suppose we could lay off some pastors, and then raise the pay for the remaining and give them some more churches. Or we could try to get more people to pay an honest tithe, then we could pay more to our pastors and employ all the young people coming out of the seminary.

And while I think that our pastors and teachers have very good benefits and not bad pay, 35-40 grand, (a lot of people would be tickled to get that) it would be great if we could pay them a better wage.

Richard

Again, I do not agree that your estimate of "35-40 grand" applies to all parts of the country.

[Richard Sherwin]

Again I ask what is the best way to help the needy? Giving them a handout or spending your money on something (like a new house) so they are employed?

A deeper and more perceptive wisdom isn't intended for everyone, perhaps only those who have ears will hear...

Mat 8:20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests;
but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

Notice EGW deson't name names either.

So sorry, let the deaf continue to add house to house and embezzlers embezzle the embezzled. Carry on.

[Snoopy]

Danny Shelton was never the "face of adventism" and has never represented me... and IF he was perceived as such, he should not have been....

there is a limit to how persistent people should be in this situation in my opinion... what's next? peeping in his window? going through his trash? 3abn is an independent ministry they can do what they choose to do... if people don't like it, stop supporting it....

Unbelievable.

Well, I am an independent person, so I guess I don't have to abide by the laws of the land.

[Richard Sherwin]

I wonder where we can find out what the average pay is, not starting pay but average? Any ideas? I'm going on mostly what my wife was getting when she quit teaching 5 years ago and the understanding that teachers and preachers were paid pretty close to the same.

Richard

Again, I do not agree that your estimate of "35-40 grand" applies to all parts of the country.

[PrincessDrRe]

GOD don't like ugly....