Reaping The Whirl Wind, IRS Criminal Investigation of 3ABN Options

[Richard Sherwin]

I've only been to Honduras a couple of times but I was always impressed at how happy those people were, even in dirt floor shacks.

I too share the concerns of what 3abn does with the funds given it and the mortgage deals that could be a conflict of interest. But I have no problem with Jim Gilley being well off or even rich, as long as he didn't gain his wealth with donor money somewhere back that was given to spread the gospel. There seems to be a lot of focus on his former house and IMO that is just petty nit picking.

Richard,

Sorry to hear about your socks.

Let's extend that analogy to its conclusion.

1. We go to Honduras from our modest homes, and we ask, "What do you have in your hand?"

2. Those people, living in Honduras in the shacks with the dirt floors, give to us "sacrificially" to support our "ministry."

3. Then we use the money to buy cases of floor wax for our own modest homes and cases of Windex for our windows, when their shacks in Honduras have no floors and no windows.

What will the Honduran people think when they discover how we used their money? Do you think they'll give us more money for more floor wax and Windex, later?

I don't think so.

Remember, Harvard University, America's largest nonprofit institution, owns no private jet. So, we don't need to seek out Hondurans with dirt floors to supply contrast.

In conclusion, I'm wondering about that house purchase in West Frankfort. I do have questions about it.

[SoulEspresso]

We forget biblical examples ... Abraham was rich. Solomon presided over the biggest economic boom in Israelite history, given by God as a sign of blessing on the house of David.

That said, I'm not sure, from Scripture, that it's as much where we get the money as what we do with it once its "ours." In the OT prophets, withholding from the poor is equated with the sins of Sodom.

If you have a roof, indoor plumbing, and enough to eat, you're rich by world standards ...

[Richard Sherwin]

If a donor gave to have it put into the ministry and instead it was used for personal wealth then yes I think it would matter where the money came from.

What better way to give to the poor than by giving them a job?

We forget biblical examples ... Abraham was rich. Solomon presided over the biggest economic boom in Israelite history, given by God as a sign of blessing on the house of David.

That said, I'm not sure, from Scripture, that it's as much where we get the money as what we do with it once its "ours." In the OT prophets, withholding from the poor is equated with the sins of Sodom.

If you have a roof, indoor plumbing, and enough to eat, you're rich by world standards ...

[Fran]

The Gilley's home sold really fast. I understand it sold at less than the actual value of the home.. Maybe it sold to his replacement in Dallas+.

His replacement has been chosen. Happens to be someone I know. I don't know if they bought the house or not. I could see that happening.

In my opinion, I see a relationship that will grow between the Dallas Church and 3ABN! Now I will sit back and see if this will happen. No, I think my real question is how long it will take.

[Richard Sherwin]

Wow it's been quiet on these 3abn threads. It's almost as though the Danny/3abn defenders have gotten their heads together and finally realized that by posting on here they hurt their cause rather than help it. (Speaking metaphorically of course as none of them know each other or take any orders from anyone, in fact they are just innocent bystanders minding their own business standing under appletrees saying Ian what Ian and being fallible human beings)

[Fran]

Wow it's been quiet on these 3abn threads. It's almost as though the Danny/3abn defenders have gotten their heads together and finally realized that by posting on here they hurt their cause rather than help it. (Speaking metaphorically of course as none of them know each other or take any orders from anyone, in fact they are just innocent bystanders minding their own business standing under appletrees saying Ian what Ian and being fallible human beings)

Richard;

They clam up every time I talk about Trust Fund problems in the amount of approx. $2.45 Million Dollars.

They don't like it when they hear there is documented evidence about it.

They don't like it when attention is called to the fact that over $14,000 belonging to other ministries was posted to 3ABN's Income.

They don't like it that attention has been called to the fact the auditors continually wrote/write them up for not evaluating assets properly, but never corrected the process.

They don't like it when attention is called to the fact that GAAP has not been followed.

I will post these facts from the documents that are readily available to all.

They want to make sure the IL vs. 3ABN Property Tax Lawsuit is not brought into this current lawsuit. Oops!

I wonder if the current investigators are checking the eBay accounts of persons that were/are selling for 3ABN and see just where the proceeds went. They should.

[jakann]

OK here is what I think we should all do. We should all go buy a vacant piece of land and build a mud hut on it so we can live as cheaply as possible and then we can give all our money to the poor.

I like your thinking!
“Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.” Luke 18:22

Instead of a car we should ask an Amish to sell us a horse and buggy.

Don’t mistake the Amish’s choice of mode of transportation as a result of just wanting to live cheaper. They have other reasons.
Speaking of the Amish. How would you recommend that one witness to them? Would the best way be for a pastor/evangelist to move into town and build a 3500sq/ft, $600,000 home occupied by just two people?

Better yet lets live in that buggy in a national forest, that is even less expensive.

Well, I guess I agree with you although I’m not so sure on your timing. It might be a bit premature.

“The time is not far distant, when, like the early disciples, we shall be forced to seek a refuge in desolate and solitary places. …. so the assumption of power on the part of our nation in the decree enforcing the papal sabbath will be a warning to us. It will then be time to leave the large cities, preparatory to leaving the smaller ones for retired homes in secluded places among the mountains. And now, instead of seeking expensive dwellings here, we should be preparing to move to a better country, even a heavenly.” 5T 464

If we are going to criticize Jim Gilley for living in a lavish house then we better be prepared to accept the criticisms of someone living in a dirt floor shack in Honduras for the modest houses we live in.

God criticizes those who profess His name and yet live in lavish houses. Of course, it all is constructive criticism, if we are willing to listen and obey.

“If professed Christians would use less of their wealth in adorning the body and in beautifying their own houses, …. they could place much larger sums in the treasury of God.” 3T 401

“Puritan plainness and simplicity should mark the dwellings and apparel of all who believe the solemn truths for this time. All means needlessly expended in dress or in the adorning of our houses is a waste of our Lord's money. It is defrauding the cause of God for the gratification of pride.” 5T.189

Was Elder Gilley’s house plain and simple? “Means needlessly expended” means granite countertops instead of Formica, clay tiles instead of asphalt shingles, 3500 sq/ft instead 2000 sq/ft, an outdoor fireplace (???!!!) instead of not having one, a wet bar instead of not having one, an Italian-villa style home instead of local architecture, a $619,000 home instead of a $200,000 home that most people live in in that area, and on and on.
Take a look at all the homes on this street view of Gilley’s home. http://www.adigitalu.com/pan/pan.asp?PropertyID=7921
Now, if you asked someone to start at one end of the block and walk until he could find the one of the SDA pastor, would he pick Gilley’s house? I guess he would if one is looking for a preacher who teaches the evangelical prosperity gospel like Creflo Dollar and Rod Parsley. The power of a rich pastor can be bewitching upon a congregation. They misinterpret the pastor’s wealth as being approbation from God when in most cases that is not so. I mean, if you lived across the street from Gilley in Texas, wouldn’t you think he had his hand in the offering plate or something? Don’t pastors ever need to be examples in their dress, decorum, dwellings and so on? Note: The combined value of the two homes across the street is still more than $100,000 less than the value of Gilley’s home!

When I think of Ellen Harmon, knitting stockings for 25 cents a day, all so that she could help spread the gospel. And I think if James White going out to cut hay all day by hand, just to get a bit of money to further the work. And then I think of the Gilley’s, unnecessarily spending over $11,000 per year, just in taxes let alone mortgage costs, maintenance, insurance, utility bills etc etc on a mansion. It is nothing more than obscene. I mean, by giving a mortgage for $573,000 and not even counting their downpayment, the Gilley’s were probably paying around $3,400 a month just in mortgage costs, plus insurance, and taxes --you’re over $4,500 a month. Who wants to take up the argument that that money is better spent on the ornate woodwork and coffered ceilings of Gilley’s mansion than in the Lord’s work?

And I'll continue:

“How much means is expended for things that are mere idols, things that engross thought and time and strength which should be put to a higher use! How much money is wasted on expensive houses and furniture,” … MH 207
You’ll note that God does not indicate that it is a benefit to society and the downtrodden poor tradesman that expensive houses are built. He says the money is flat-out wasted!!

“I saw that at present God did not call for the houses his people need to live in, unless expensive houses are exchanged for cheaper ones.” 2SG 249
Well, I guess he did exchange his $619,000 lavish home (your words, not mine) for a $295,000 one in Illinois.

“If its members [the church] follow Christ, they will deny the inclination for display, the love of dress, the love of elegant houses and costly furniture.” 7T 296
If a $600,000 home is Elder Gilley’s idea of denying an inclination for the love of elegant houses then wow! he must have really rich tastes!

“Never was there greater need of earnest, self-sacrificing labor in the cause of Christ than now, when the hours of probation are fast closing and the last message of mercy is to be given to the world. My soul is stirred within me as the Macedonian cry comes from every direction, from the cities and villages of our own land, from across the Atlantic and the broad Pacific, and from the islands of the sea: "Come over, . . . and help us." Brethren and sisters, will you answer the cry? saying: "We will do our best, both in sending you missionaries and money. We will deny ourselves in the embellishment of our houses, in the adornment of our persons, and in the gratification of appetite. We will give the means entrusted to us into the cause of God, and we will devote ourselves also unreservedly to His work." The wants of the cause are laid before us; the empty treasuries appeal to us most pathetically for help. One dollar now is of more value to the work than ten dollars will be at some future period.” 5T 732

We can only hope that Elder Gilley will give up his expensive predeliction for elegant houses and put his money into the Lord’s work. Additionally, we can also hope that his theological training at the feet of Sunday worshipers will not come in conflict with the work of the distinctively Seventh-day Adventist Three Angel’s Message-giving ministry at 3ABN. We want the SDA message preached from West Frankfort, IL, not that of the fallen churches of Babylon!

[Nandina]

Someone's "wealth" truly is a matter of perspective, isn't it? A recent trip to the jungle in Peru left me humbled and embarrassed over my lovely home - a tiny 4 room cottage I had purchased because my son longed to move out of an apartment and have a house like his friends. His friends, however, live on 3 acre lots, in 3000 sq ft estates, so we're still not in the running LOL.
There is nothing in scripture that says a church leader must be poor. We do however, know that even the Lord had "no place to lie his head" and there are many other examples of the humble lifestyle of earlier Christians. Thankfully, God looks on the heart, and knows our intentions and knows of our secret alms-giving. There is still the matter of avoiding the very appearance of evil - the world is quick to find fault with any connection between religion and wealth, thanks to the publically proclaimed misuses over the years. It's a fine line the Man of God must walk - perhaps he would be best served by finding himself in similiar circumstances to his constituents

This post has been edited by Nandina: Dec 18 2007, 06:23 AM

[Richard Sherwin]

So where do you draw the line in what is wasteful and what is not? Everyone will have their own line. Yours will be different than mine. Some will think anything other than hand me down cheap or free furniture would be wasteful. Some would only by their clothes at a second hand shop, others only at Wally World. It's pretty hard to know what is wasteful and what is not. What did Mrs. White mean when she said we should not beautify our homes?

BTW Jesus did not say for all of us to sell all that we have and follow Him.

And the Bible did not say that being rich was wrong. The richest people are the ones that can give the most to the needy.

If Gilley was spending 11 grand a year on taxes that was educating a couple kids, they should be thanking him for having such a nice house.

I think in this case judging him because he was successful in business is a bit petty.

Richard

I like your thinking!
“Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.” Luke 18:22
Don’t mistake the Amish’s choice of mode of transportation as a result of just wanting to live cheaper. They have other reasons.
Speaking of the Amish. How would you recommend that one witness to them? Would the best way be for a pastor/evangelist to move into town and build a 3500sq/ft, $600,000 home occupied by just two people?
Well, I guess I agree with you although I’m not so sure on your timing. It might be a bit premature.

“The time is not far distant, when, like the early disciples, we shall be forced to seek a refuge in desolate and solitary places. …. so the assumption of power on the part of our nation in the decree enforcing the papal sabbath will be a warning to us. It will then be time to leave the large cities, preparatory to leaving the smaller ones for retired homes in secluded places among the mountains. And now, instead of seeking expensive dwellings here, we should be preparing to move to a better country, even a heavenly.” 5T 464
God criticizes those who profess His name and yet live in lavish houses. Of course, it all is constructive criticism, if we are willing to listen and obey.

“If professed Christians would use less of their wealth in adorning the body and in beautifying their own houses, …. they could place much larger sums in the treasury of God.” 3T 401

“Puritan plainness and simplicity should mark the dwellings and apparel of all who believe the solemn truths for this time. All means needlessly expended in dress or in the adorning of our houses is a waste of our Lord's money. It is defrauding the cause of God for the gratification of pride.” 5T.189

Was Elder Gilley’s house plain and simple? “Means needlessly expended” means granite countertops instead of Formica, clay tiles instead of asphalt shingles, 3500 sq/ft instead 2000 sq/ft, an outdoor fireplace (???!!!) instead of not having one, a wet bar instead of not having one, an Italian-villa style home instead of local architecture, a $619,000 home instead of a $200,000 home that most people live in in that area, and on and on.
Take a look at all the homes on this street view of Gilley’s home. http://www.adigitalu.com/pan/pan.asp?PropertyID=7921
Now, if you asked someone to start at one end of the block and walk until he could find the one of the SDA pastor, would he pick Gilley’s house? I guess he would if one is looking for a preacher who teaches the evangelical prosperity gospel like Creflo Dollar and Rod Parsley. The power of a rich pastor can be bewitching upon a congregation. They misinterpret the pastor’s wealth as being approbation from God when in most cases that is not so. I mean, if you lived across the street from Gilley in Texas, wouldn’t you think he had his hand in the offering plate or something? Don’t pastors ever need to be examples in their dress, decorum, dwellings and so on? Note: The combined value of the two homes across the street is still more than $100,000 less than the value of Gilley’s home!

When I think of Ellen Harmon, knitting stockings for 25 cents a day, all so that she could help spread the gospel. And I think if James White going out to cut hay all day by hand, just to get a bit of money to further the work. And then I think of the Gilley’s, unnecessarily spending over $11,000 per year, just in taxes let alone mortgage costs, maintenance, insurance, utility bills etc etc on a mansion. It is nothing more than obscene. I mean, by giving a mortgage for $573,000 and not even counting their downpayment, the Gilley’s were probably paying around $3,400 a month just in mortgage costs, plus insurance, and taxes --you’re over $4,500 a month. Who wants to take up the argument that that money is better spent on the ornate woodwork and coffered ceilings of Gilley’s mansion than in the Lord’s work?

And I'll continue:

“How much means is expended for things that are mere idols, things that engross thought and time and strength which should be put to a higher use! How much money is wasted on expensive houses and furniture,” … MH 207
You’ll note that God does not indicate that it is a benefit to society and the downtrodden poor tradesman that expensive houses are built. He says the money is flat-out wasted!!

“I saw that at present God did not call for the houses his people need to live in, unless expensive houses are exchanged for cheaper ones.” 2SG 249
Well, I guess he did exchange his $619,000 lavish home (your words, not mine) for a $295,000 one in Illinois.

“If its members [the church] follow Christ, they will deny the inclination for display, the love of dress, the love of elegant houses and costly furniture.” 7T 296
If a $600,000 home is Elder Gilley’s idea of denying an inclination for the love of elegant houses then wow! he must have really rich tastes!

“Never was there greater need of earnest, self-sacrificing labor in the cause of Christ than now, when the hours of probation are fast closing and the last message of mercy is to be given to the world. My soul is stirred within me as the Macedonian cry comes from every direction, from the cities and villages of our own land, from across the Atlantic and the broad Pacific, and from the islands of the sea: "Come over, . . . and help us." Brethren and sisters, will you answer the cry? saying: "We will do our best, both in sending you missionaries and money. We will deny ourselves in the embellishment of our houses, in the adornment of our persons, and in the gratification of appetite. We will give the means entrusted to us into the cause of God, and we will devote ourselves also unreservedly to His work." The wants of the cause are laid before us; the empty treasuries appeal to us most pathetically for help. One dollar now is of more value to the work than ten dollars will be at some future period.” 5T 732

We can only hope that Elder Gilley will give up his expensive predeliction for elegant houses and put his money into the Lord’s work. Additionally, we can also hope that his theological training at the feet of Sunday worshipers will not come in conflict with the work of the distinctively Seventh-day Adventist Three Angel’s Message-giving ministry at 3ABN. We want the SDA message preached from West Frankfort, IL, not that of the fallen churches of Babylon!

[GRAT]

I think there is a principle here that in Mrs. White's writings we can find, not specific examples. Like the bike thing and the red dress. We as Adventists have clung tenaciously over the years to a stand on jewelery(less and less as time goes by) but have not embraced the principle behind it. IMO. I believe it is the same one. Living as simply as we can. I don't think this means a mud hut and will be different for different people as they are impressed by the Holy Spirit. One example I have heard it the couple who drive up to church in their Mercedes and look down on someone at church with jewelry on. We can live in simple comfortable houses and drive simple comfortable cars and wear simple nice clothes and jewelry and use the money we save to help feed the poor, the orphans and widows. I have heard it said that there is enough wealth in this world that no one should need to go to bed hungry. (I'm sounding like a socialist. ) I'm not saying I have achieved this standard yet but I think it is something to think about or strive to obtain. OK now tear me to pieces.

[princessdi]

You won't be torn to pieces, Grat. However, this principle is nto one put forth in the Bible. There always were, and Jesus said there always would be poor among us. His miracles did not include economic equality for the poor. He did not make the widow wealthy so she could put in more than a mite. We are not required to "cut" to accommodate for anyone else's deficiencies. Now we are supposed to take care of the poor, give to them feed cloth them, etc. However, we dont' get to tell those who can afford a mMercedes that they need to by a Honda instead, so they can feed to hungry. It sounds to much like coveting other's blessing.

I think there is a principle here that in Mrs. White's writings we can find, not specific examples. Like the bike thing and the red dress. We as Adventists have clung tenaciously over the years to a stand on jewelery(less and less as time goes by) but have not embraced the principle behind it. IMO. I believe it is the same one. Living as simply as we can. I don't think this means a mud hut and will be different for different people as they are impressed by the Holy Spirit. One example I have heard it the couple who drive up to church in their Mercedes and look down on someone at church with jewelry on. We can live in simple comfortable houses and drive simple comfortable cars and wear simple nice clothes and jewelry and use the money we save to help feed the poor, the orphans and widows. I have heard it said that there is enough wealth in this world that no one should need to go to bed hungry. (I'm sounding like a socialist. ) I'm not saying I have achieved this standard yet but I think it is something to think about or strive to obtain. OK now tear me to pieces.

[Clay]

We can only hope that Elder Gilley will give up his expensive predeliction for elegant houses and put his money into the Lord’s work. Additionally, we can also hope that his theological training at the feet of Sunday worshipers will not come in conflict with the work of the distinctively Seventh-day Adventist Three Angel’s Message-giving ministry at 3ABN. We want the SDA message preached from West Frankfort, IL, not that of the fallen churches of Babylon!

sounds like haterade to me.... leave that between Gilley and God.... and if we do what God tells us to do we won't have time to be worrying about what kind of house someone has..... sounds like envy IMO....

[Ian]

ok, where are the 11th and 12th days???

and admit it... how many of you were humming along as you read each post????


LOL... Snoopy ROCKS!!!!!

It's beginning to look alot like Christmas, (at least where I live--lots a snow) but after reading the latest posts, it's my feeling this forum may be running out of gas..

The tune, at least, inspired this rebuttal...

On the 12th day of Christmas, some still refused to see...


Twelve words a-wounding
Eleven rumors spreading
Ten chapters lying
Nine axes grinding
Eight hens a-clucking
Seven tongues a-wagging
Six donkeys braying

FIVE DING-A-LINGS

Four mocking birds
Three more spins
Two pickled pests
And a princess in a heathen tree


author:anonymous

" I hear there's rumors on the, uh, Internets" -- President George Bush,
2nd presidential debate St. Louis, Missouri, 10-08-2004

This post has been edited by Ian: Dec 18 2007, 02:55 PM

[YogusBearus]

It's beginning to look alot like Christmas, (at least where I live--lots a snow) but after reading the latest posts, it's my feeling this forum may be running out of gas..

You may have been correct in your assumption if you had kept it to yourself. Alas, I fear your ill-advised post will probably result in new life. Maybe that is your intent…


-bear

[lurker]

Ian,

No one can avoid God's judgement. He knows the truth. Everything else is trash talk. You can try to psyche out your opponents. You can even convince yourself and some others that lies are truth and truth is a lie. But God will not be intimidated nor will His judgement be swayed.

This post has been edited by lurker: Dec 18 2007, 03:05 PM