Reaping The Whirl Wind, IRS Criminal Investigation of 3ABN Options

[Ian]

Ian,

No one can avoid God's judgement. He knows the truth. Everything else is trash talk. You can try to psyche out your opponents. You can even convince yourself and some others that lies are truth and truth is a lie. But God will not be intimidated nor will His judgement be swayed.

Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Rom 10:21...He saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die...

You may have been correct in your assumption if you had kept it to yourself. Alas, I fear your ill-advised post will probably result in new life. Maybe that is your intent…


-bear

"You're smarter then the average bear"
alas, it's my boo-boo, but you can't even begin to imagine how many ill-advised posts I've already kept to myself.

Maybe we could just keep the new life to carefree banter???

In the immortal words of Rodney King "Can't we all just get along?"

seasons greetings, Yogi!

This post has been edited by Ian: Dec 18 2007, 04:13 PM

[PeacefulBe]

It's beginning to look alot like Christmas, (at least where I live--lots a snow) but after reading the latest posts, it's my feeling this forum may be running out of gas..


On the 12th day of Christmas, some still refused to see...


Twelve words a-wounding
Eleven rumors spreading
Ten chapters lying
Nine axes grinding
Eight hens a-clucking
Seven tongues a-wagging
Six donkeys braying

FIVE DING-A-LINGS

Four mocking birds
Three more spins
Two pickled pests
And a princess in a heathen tree


author:anonymous

The tune, at least, inspired this rebuttal...
" I hear there's rumors on the, uh, Internets" -- President George Bush,
2nd presidential debate St. Louis, Missouri, 10-08-2004

Nah, plenty of gas to go around. How about a nice snowball fight! Sounds like fun to me. Better than continually trying to paint each other with some old, tired brush and splattering ourselves in the process.

Thanks for the Bush quote, Ian. W's insightful words have been oft-invoked by our own DS. It's nice to now know where to attribute the quote.

In the spirit of Christmas and the wonderful Savior who inspired it, here's a little something for you Please pass it along and lets think seriously about that snowball fight.

PB

[PeacefulBe]

I think there is a principle here that in Mrs. White's writings we can find, not specific examples. Like the bike thing and the red dress. We as Adventists have clung tenaciously over the years to a stand on jewelery(less and less as time goes by) but have not embraced the principle behind it. IMO. I believe it is the same one. Living as simply as we can. I don't think this means a mud hut and will be different for different people as they are impressed by the Holy Spirit. One example I have heard it the couple who drive up to church in their Mercedes and look down on someone at church with jewelry on. We can live in simple comfortable houses and drive simple comfortable cars and wear simple nice clothes and jewelry and use the money we save to help feed the poor, the orphans and widows. I have heard it said that there is enough wealth in this world that no one should need to go to bed hungry. (I'm sounding like a socialist. ) I'm not saying I have achieved this standard yet but I think it is something to think about or strive to obtain. OK now tear me to pieces.

This is the key, GRAT! Once we all step back and realize that each journey is personal and unique and let the Holy Spirit be responsible for the rough edges and growth in each life, we can start to just love and support each other and be the family He means us to be.

[Pickle]

Someone's "wealth" truly is a matter of perspective, isn't it? A recent trip to the jungle in Peru left me humbled and embarrassed over my lovely home - a tiny 4 room cottage ....

It's interesting how trips like that will do that.

When I was in another country in 1996 I stood at a river or creek bank waiting for a boy to ferry us across, and a Bible worker walked up. He got in too. The fare? 4 U.S. cents apiece. And off the Bible worker went to an unreached village to give Bible studies.

It made a great sermon illustration. Sister White counseled families to have a self-denial box, and instead of buying a candy bar or something like that, put the same amount of money in the box for missions.

So how much good can the price of a candy bar do? Divide the price by 4 cents and you have the number of Bible workers that can get across a river in that country in 1996 to go and give Bible studies in an unreached village.

But this money matter and the disparity of standards of living is not without its perplexing moments. Folks from places where our dollars go along ways sometimes have a difficult time understanding that evangelism is very expensive here. How much does it cost to send an invitation for Bible studies to a zipcode? Money well spent, but some of these folks may wonder why we don't import them instead and have them do our soul winning for us since they live so much cheaper!

In actuality, I really did have someone once suggest that. He had not caught on that as soon as he came over here, he would not be living so much cheaper.

[Clay]

It's beginning to look alot like Christmas, (at least where I live--lots a snow) but after reading the latest posts, it's my feeling this forum may be running out of gas..

The tune, at least, inspired this rebuttal...
" I hear there's rumors on the, uh, Internets" -- President George Bush,
2nd presidential debate St. Louis, Missouri, 10-08-2004

ADMIN caution:
now that you have had your turn, let it rest you and Snoopy, both were ummmm questionable at best... let's move on...

[Green Cochoa]

Oh, I'm fully aware that Pastor Gilley has worked for $1 a year in the past. Was that his salary at Dallas First, as well? Did the $1 include a matching $1 a year in employer retirement contributions? (Okay, I probably shouldn't have said that!) And why just $1? Why not $100? Better yet, $0!

I would be interested in exploring with you the wider theological aspects of the shepherd/sheep relationship. The shepherd provides for the sheep: shelter; fodder; protection. And the sheep provide for the shepherd: wool, meat. I think this theme is repeated in various forms throughout scripture.

My point is this: A pastor does many of the same things for his flock. He brings them the bread of life and provides a place of eternal safety for them. In turn, the flock provides and sustains the shepherd over them in the way of tithes and offerings.

YOu can see it around the world, where truth is not preached, tithing decreases and people leave the church. And the corollary is true. While not condemning Pastor Gilley for his $1 a year thing I think that he might be missing a blessing and an opportunity to have his heart bound up more closely with those he is shepherding. What are your thoughts?
p.s. You indicated that Pastor Gilley had earned his money before entering the ministry. So you would agree that it would not now be appropriate for him to be conducting a side business while leading 3ABN? That is, do you think that the Presidency of 3ABN is a part-time job?
My Bible says that the harvest is great and the workers are few. My generalized feeling is that welders should weld, teachers should teach, and pastors should pastor.

Now, my question to you is this: What is the man supposed to do who has the skills to weld, to teach, to preach, to speak multiple languages, to craft websites and do computer network administration, and a host of other things? I guess if a pastor can only pastor then that would disqualify him from ever becoming a pastor, is this right? OR do you believe a pastor must throw away all of those other God-given abilities in order to "just pastor?"

As for the apostles mentioned in another post, weren't Peter, James, and John in that group? Do I not read how they went fishing--and this is AFTER Christ's resurrection? Oh--but I guess they weren't perfect. Maybe they weren't supposed to be fishing, since they should have been door-to-door with the Gospel...

ummm God did not say that, and perhaps a review of church history might be in order... the new christians did not meet in synagogues..... the Jews did that.... the jewish christians met in home churches....

Actually, yes, the new Christians still met in the synagogues--and what's more, we never have an edict in the Bible that they should NOT do so. Home churches, however, can be a tremendous way of church-planting, and should be used far more than we have ever promoted. I would go so far as to say churches with memberships numbered in the hundreds should consider splitting into smaller groups by spawning a number of "home churches" in the surrounding neighborhood. Wouldn't it be wonderful to have a church on every street corner?

IMO, it is not the buildings we build, the NET programs we conduct, the evangelism we promote, the baptisms our efforts result in, the millions we reach for Adventism through TV, the millions of Adventists we entertain, the Sabbath books we distribute, or the beasts and dragons we expose and explain our theoretical interpretations of, that mean anything. I believe that doing those things is "doing great things in your name." To my recollection Jesus said that in the end he will ask where we were when he was hungry, naked, and in prison, and this will be the criteria upon which he bases his judgement of people. Those who say that they were out doing great things, and miracles in his name will end up in hell, while those who were feeding the hungry, clothing the cold, visiting those in prison, and generally doing what they could to take care on their fellow humans on the level of real human life will be surprised when God says that in stepping out to care for the temporal needs of humanity, they were caring for him, and welcomes them into his home. Those are are not things that require a salary to perform. All they require is a strong enough love for your fellow human beings to transform sacrifice of yourself and your things into something that is not sacrifice, because it is a pleasure.

Amen! Some of us need to understand the true worth of the soul. Each soul is worth enough to have cost Jesus His life. It's not what we DO that matters, it's WHO we do it for and to.

Not much has changed. It is reported that Danny L. Shelton used as an argument that he was telling the *TRUTH* that he was sitting behind the desk and not in front of it. Those sitting in front of his desk are liars!

Mr. Apple... shows that he is steeped in that *gospel*. Power makes it right!

It seems it is "Appletree" as in "the apple does not fall far from the tree!"

I like your thinking!
“Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.” Luke 18:22

It is to be noted that the treasure which Jesus saw in the young man, or the "all that thou hast" if you will, was what the young man had just finished describing to Jesus: the knowledge of truth and of God's law which he had grown up with. It was precisely THAT treasure which he was invited to SELL/DISTRIBUTE.

We still have the idiom in modern English. If you sell me on something, or if I buy into it, it merely means that I believe it or was taught to believe it.

BTW Jesus did not say for all of us to sell all that we have and follow Him.

And the Bible did not say that being rich was wrong. The richest people are the ones that can give the most to the needy.

Actually, in parallel with what I just said above, I quite believe that Jesus DID say for all of us to sell all that we have and follow Him. If we are not sources/sellers/distributors of all of God's truth which we are privileged to know, we are not doing our duty.

I agree that the Bible did not say it was wrong to be rich. It is certainly not wrong to be rich in the knowledge of God's law, as the young man with whom Jesus spoke claimed to be.

Blessings,

Greenie.

[jakann]

Now, my question to you is this: What is the man supposed to do who has the skills to weld, to teach, to preach, to speak multiple languages, to craft websites and do computer network administration, and a host of other things? I guess if a pastor can only pastor then that would disqualify him from ever becoming a pastor, is this right? OR do you believe a pastor must throw away all of those other God-given abilities in order to "just pastor?"

You didn't qualify your post by defining the use of tithe. Are you referring to someone who is a self-supporting pastor or a tithe supported pastor?
Aside from that, why can't a person who has all those abilities use those skills in his pastoring?
And just because a pastor has an ability to earn income from a certain skill he may have, does that mean he must do so? If a pastor knows small engine repair, should he put out his shingle "Pastor Dave Thomas, Religious Instruction and Small Engine Repair".
My thing is this: Tithe supported ministry is a full-time job. Find a job in ministry that uses your God-given abilities.

As for the apostles mentioned in another post, weren't Peter, James, and John in that group? Do I not read how they went fishing--and this is AFTER Christ's resurrection? Oh--but I guess they weren't perfect. Maybe they weren't supposed to be fishing, since they should have been door-to-door with the Gospel...

No, they were supposed to be fishing. They were destitute and needed to go fishing that they might sell them to have food and clothing. In fact, it was Jesus who told them to go to Galilee and it was he who virtually recreated the fishing experience Peter had when he first met Jesus. But you can read it all yourself in the Desire of Ages by Ellen White. Read the two chapters By the Sea Once More and Go Teach All Nations. It is interesting that it was not until after the resurrection and after their fishing trip that the Gospel Commission was given in its fullness to them and them and hundreds of other disciples/believers. Kind of hard to go door to door with the Gospel when you haven't yet been fully vested by the Gospel-giver (Jesus) to do such a thing.
Plus, at that time, the Christian church had not yet been formed, even Pentecost was still future. The full mission of the church, much from visions received by Paul and under his direction were still future.
Blessings!

[Richard Sherwin]

Pastoring is, and should be a full time job for those getting paid by tithes from the denomination. However that does not mean they do that all their waking hours. Pastors enjoy hobbies, sports etc. They have, and should have spare time, what they do during that spare time should be up to them, if they want to use it to invest their money in the stock market then that is none of my business. Some in fact might do very well at it. Or if in a previous life they had a business built up that fed money to them once they are pastoring then more power to them. The organizational skills that a good paster brings to his church might also be the same skill that will create wealth. I just think it's wrong to knock a pastor for the wise investment of his assets.

You didn't qualify your post by defining the use of tithe. Are you referring to someone who is a self-supporting pastor or a tithe supported pastor?
Aside from that, why can't a person who has all those abilities use those skills in his pastoring?
And just because a pastor has an ability to earn income from a certain skill he may have, does that mean he must do so? If a pastor knows small engine repair, should he put out his shingle "Pastor Dave Thomas, Religious Instruction and Small Engine Repair".
My thing is this: Tithe supported ministry is a full-time job. Find a job in ministry that uses your God-given abilities.
No, they were supposed to be fishing. They were destitute and needed to go fishing that they might sell them to have food and clothing. In fact, it was Jesus who told them to go to Galilee and it was he who virtually recreated the fishing experience Peter had when he first met Jesus. But you can read it all yourself in the Desire of Ages by Ellen White. Read the two chapters By the Sea Once More and Go Teach All Nations. It is interesting that it was not until after the resurrection and after their fishing trip that the Gospel Commission was given in its fullness to them and them and hundreds of other disciples/believers. Kind of hard to go door to door with the Gospel when you haven't yet been fully vested by the Gospel-giver (Jesus) to do such a thing.
Plus, at that time, the Christian church had not yet been formed, even Pentecost was still future. The full mission of the church, much from visions received by Paul and under his direction were still future.
Blessings!

[Green Cochoa]

Jakann,

While I can sympathize somewhat with your sentiments on pastors focusing purely on pastoring, I cannot accept the theology of it...

Well, if there's an exception to every rule, there are at least scores of exceptions to the one you seem to be trying to make. Remember, it is no sin to be rich, neither is it a sin to make money. It is no virtue to labor for free, for God Himself has said that the laborer is worthy of his hire.

For examples:

1) A pastor writes a book that will benefit people spiritually, based on his personal work as a pastor in meeting their needs. The pastor copyrights and sells said book. Wrong?

2) A pastor writes a computer program which provides a web interface for an online ministry of his church. The pastor then sells said program to others who find it fits their needs as well.

3) A pastor chooses to work part time with a backsliding member, or with a non-member in their local business as a novel means of spending more time with them and witnessing to them and to others in their place of work. (While I admit to not hearing of specific cases of people doing this, I have been intrigued by this idea myself at times.) As "charity" often changes the interpersonal dynamics, and can have an adverse effect, the pastor accepts payment for his labor. Wrong?

These are just a few examples. The point is this: Who are we or who are they who would dare to tell people what they can and cannot do with their labors for God? It is something that should be between the individual and God. God gave the talents. God led in the life experience. God knows the weaknesses, strengths, and future of not only each individual, but of all those with whom each has contact. How do we know what God may have called someone else to do? To say that someone else should or should not be carrying on their work with a particular set of blinders on, or with a particular focus or set of duties, is to judge.

"Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience?" 1 Corinthians 10:29

"But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it shall not be so among you..." Matthew 20:25-26

According to Jesus, not even the "church" has the right to exert authority over the conscience of an individual in carrying out his or her duties--for each one answers to God. In the judgment, I won't be answering to the church, but to my Creator.

Yes, I am payed by tithe. But to Whom does the tithe belong? Indeed, then, I must answer to Him, for He is my Master.

Oh, and I'm not pastoring (to be more clear, that is not my current job description).

Now, more to the presumed topic of this thread (and playing DA for a moment), if the president or any one else who is speaking on camera regularly to an international audience at 3ABN is leading people to Christ (as they are trying to do), does this not fulfill the Biblical role of a pastor? one who shepherds a flock of sheep? I should think if the tithe is for supporting pastors, that the equation should go the other way too, that pastors should be paid with tithe. However, to the contrary, many here have objected to 3ABN accepting tithe money. Why is that?

Blessings,

Greenie.

[awesumtenor]

Now, more to the presumed topic of this thread (and playing DA for a moment), if the president or any one else who is speaking on camera regularly to an international audience at 3ABN is leading people to Christ (as they are trying to do), does this not fulfill the Biblical role of a pastor? one who shepherds a flock of sheep? I should think if the tithe is for supporting pastors, that the equation should go the other way too, that pastors should be paid with tithe. However, to the contrary, many here have objected to 3ABN accepting tithe money. Why is that?

Because they are a non-denominational entity, by their own admission...for them to accept tithes from Adventist members as a de facto church then they should be operating within the bounds of the policies of the church and, as AF, operating under the aegis of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists.

To put it in terms of a cliche, they'd be having their cake and eating it too.

When the church tried to extend this to them they rejected it... which was their prerogative... but in doing so they rejected what you suggest along with it.

In His service,
Mr. J

[Green Cochoa]

Because they are a non-denominational entity, by their own admission...for them to accept tithes from Adventist members as a de facto church then they should be operating within the bounds of the policies of the church and, as AF, operating under the aegis of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists.

To put it in terms of a cliche, they'd be having their cake and eating it too.

When the church tried to extend this to them they rejected it... which was their prerogative... but in doing so they rejected what you suggest along with it.

In His service,
Mr. J

AT, I appreciate your straightforward answer. I can resonate with that as well. You won't see me advocating that the 3ABN clan be paid with tithe, but to play the DA a bit more here, what exactly is a "denomination," and where do we have edict for such a narrow classification according to scripture? If you want to go to the B.C. Israelite era and talk of the priesthood, then the classification was rather confined to men of Levite heritage. However, in the "New Testament Dispensation" this was broadened to include "Gentiles," and so much the more each of the other tribes of Israel. Nor was circumcision an issue any longer. The Holy Spirit came to thousands of people at Pentecost, mostly of the "uncircumcised Gentiles." God is no respecter of persons--how much do you think He respects denominations?

Blessings,

Greenie.

[awesumtenor]

The Holy Spirit came to thousands of people at Pentecost, mostly of the "uncircumcised Gentiles." God is no respecter of persons--how much do you think He respects denominations?

This is not correct; re-read Acts chapter 2. The first "gentile" to rhear and accept the gospel is the Ethiopian Eunuch in Acts chapter 8... while he was one who believed and was familiar with the Hebrew scriptures, his being a eunuch precluded him from ever becoming a Jew. The persons who heard and received the gospel on pentecost were Jews, even if they were not Hebrews:

Act 2:5-11 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. (6) Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. (7) And they were all amazed and marveled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? (8) And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? (9) Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, (10) Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, (11) Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

From this point, Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, begins to preach to them and after that preaching we see their response to it:

Act 2:37-41 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? (38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (39) For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. (40) And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. (41) Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
No gentiles were saved at Pentecost... according to the biblical record.

In His service,
Mr. J

[Green Cochoa]

This is not correct; re-read Acts chapter 2. The first "gentile" to rhear and accept the gospel is the Ethiopian Eunuch in Acts chapter 8... while he was one who believed and was familiar with the Hebrew scriptures, his being a eunuch precluded him from ever becoming a Jew. The persons who heard and received the gospel on pentecost were Jews, even if they were not Hebrews:

Act 2:5-11 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. (6) Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. (7) And they were all amazed and marveled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? (8) And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? (9) Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, (10) Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, (11) Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

From this point, Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, begins to preach to them and after that preaching we see their response to it:

Act 2:37-41 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? (38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (39) For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. (40) And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. (41) Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
No gentiles were saved at Pentecost... according to the biblical record.

In His service,
Mr. J

Alrighty then, let's just suppose that at Pentecost only Jews were present. (BTW, the Bible does not say there were no Gentiles at the Pentecost. Got a verse for that?) The fact remains that the Holy Spirit was given to the Gentiles through the preaching of Peter and of other apostles (refer to Acts chapter 10). How would you respond to the rest of the question?

Blessings,

Greenie.

[awesumtenor]

Alrighty then, let's just suppose that at Pentecost only Jews were present. (BTW, the Bible does not say there were no Gentiles at the Pentecost. Got a verse for that?) The fact remains that the Holy Spirit was given to the Gentiles through the preaching of Peter and of other apostles (refer to Acts chapter 10). How would you respond to the rest of the question?

Blessings,

Greenie.

I never said there were no gentiles present. I said those who made up the 3,000 that were added to the church that day were the "Jews... out of every nation under heaven" noted in verse 5 of Acts chapter 2 and the sermon Peter preaches is targeted to a Jewish audience.

The rest of the question is non sequitur; on the subject of 3ABN's receiving tithe, they would not be receiving it from God... that said, if the Seventh-day Adventist church is going to start giving entities not associated with it tithe money, what is stopping the RCC or the Jehovah's Wittnesses or the from making the same request of Adventist tithe funds? Not giving 3ABN tithe funds is not and never has been an issue of being respecters of persons... and to try to make it so is to bear false witness about both sides.

In His service,
Mr. J

[Snoopy]

ADMIN caution:
now that you have had your turn, let it rest you and Snoopy, both were ummmm questionable at best... let's move on...

UUUUUMMMMMMMM


Good Grief! Lighten up!!! I think someone is wound up a little too tightly.