Reaping The Whirl Wind, IRS Criminal Investigation of 3ABN Options

[Shepherdswife]

I would be interested to know the origins of Elder Gilley's outside income. The Bible and Spirit of Prophecy are too clear as to not be mistaken that pastors are not to engage in business enterprises (even those within the church!) as it would detract from their ordained mission to spread the Gospel. Additionally, it would be a condemnation of the church salary structure that the tithe was not enough to support him and his family. I would believe that this is not the current case in North America although in some foreign fields there may be a lack of adequate funding for pastoral workers.

I guess I just wouldn't want my 3ABN president up late at night tracking stock quotes or making calls throughout the day to make sure that his business interests are well-kept while there might be more pressing matters such as being (in part) in charge of proclaiming the Three Angels' Messages.

And yes, it is a nice house. It is worth nearly 8 times what mine is but you couldn't pay me a million to take it off his hands!

Welcome, jakann! Glad you here... My responses are tied to your post but address a number of other people's comments here. Just didn't want you to think I was jumping on you!

There are a lot of ways a pastor could have a home like this--all unrelated to his ministry income. And in my opinion, speculating about them is outside the bounds of the issues we have been discussing.

I do not know any of the details of Elder Gilley's life or business, so am not speaking of him specifically, but I would rather have an administrator with some business sense and experience then one who has pastored his whole career and has been bumped up to leadership but does not have the aptitude for leading a large organization. Also, the "full-time" and nothing else model, in my opinion, is overrated. Ministry is a calling, and I have seen doctors and plumbers who are called to minister as doctors and plumbers and who put more passion and thought into it and have more real results than some pastors--even raised up churches while working a full-time job, which is more than many (dare I say most) pastors have ever done. Just because someone is full-time doesn't make them better at it or even more committed or dedicated. But I tend to be a little out of the box myself...

shepherdswife--and yes, my husband is a "full-time" pastor.

[Shepherdswife]

The Bible and Spirit of Prophecy are too clear as to not be mistaken that pastors are not to engage in business enterprises (even those within the church!) as it would detract from their ordained mission to spread the Gospel.

jakann, I would be interested in the Biblical passages you are speaking of, regarding pastors being limited to 24/7 ministry. Can you post them for me, please? Thanks!

shepherdswife

[jakann]

jakann, I would be interested in the Biblical passages you are speaking of, regarding pastors being limited to 24/7 ministry. Can you post them for me, please? Thanks!

shepherdswife

Thanks for the kind welcome to BlackSDA.

To be sure, I did not use the phrase "24/7" but that's immaterial. How much less than 24/7 i.e. wholly committed service, should we as sheep be willing to accept from the shepherds over us? Is there ever an appropriate time for the shepherd to be occupied with another task?

Since you did ask for only the Biblical passages about pastors and their work I will assume that you are already familiar with the SOP counsel on this subject. Do you feel her counsel is appropriate?

The Levites, which are an Old Testament parallel to the NT pastor, in that they are both tithe-supported, never engaged in business other than the wide-ranging ministry of the sanctuary and its services. The texts which confirm this are too many to quote here. Read Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. They couldn't even own land!
Never in the NT do we see the apostles putting aside the work of the gospel in order to make a few extra bucks on the side.
Acts 3:6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
Seems as though Peter did quite well without a side business.

Please don't use the example of Paul as a pastor who ran a side business because he was a tentmaker--the first "Tentmaker" ministry, if you will. He usually forewent the use of tithe in his ministry. What I am talking about is full-time tithe-supported gospel ministers. Why would they need to do other business? There is a conference pastor not far from where I live who is in a rural district. There is not enough funds to support him on a full-time salary. He works as a "stipend" pastor. He helps support himself by a trade he practices plus the small amount he gets from the conference. I think the difference between the two is clear. If Pastor Gilley is so well off that he can support himself as as tentmaker-style of minister of the gospel, then he should forgo his denominational salary---don't you think?

Blessings!
Side note:One reason most pastors burn out is that they actually overburden themselves, not by acquiring business interests, but by taking on too much responsibility within the church. A properly constituted church has active elders working in pastoral-type rolls. As a pastor's wife, you may understand how it is when the phone seems to ring all day--"Pastor, I need this; Pastor, please do that; etc"

[erik]

Thanks for the kind welcome to BlackSDA.

To be sure, I did not use the phrase "24/7" but that's immaterial. How much less than 24/7 i.e. wholly committed service, should we as sheep be willing to accept from the shepherds over us? Is there ever an appropriate time for the shepherd to be occupied with another task?

Since you did ask for only the Biblical passages about pastors and their work I will assume that you are already familiar with the SOP counsel on this subject. Do you feel her counsel is appropriate?

The Levites, which are an Old Testament parallel to the NT pastor, in that they are both tithe-supported, never engaged in business other than the wide-ranging ministry of the sanctuary and its services. The texts which confirm this are too many to quote here. Read Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. They couldn't even own land!
Never in the NT do we see the apostles putting aside the work of the gospel in order to make a few extra bucks on the side.
Acts 3:6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
Seems as though Peter did quite well without a side business.

Please don't use the example of Paul as a pastor who ran a side business because he was a tentmaker--the first "Tentmaker" ministry, if you will. He usually forewent the use of tithe in his ministry. What I am talking about is full-time tithe-supported gospel ministers. Why would they need to do other business? There is a conference pastor not far from where I live who is in a rural district. There is not enough funds to support him on a full-time salary. He works as a "stipend" pastor. He helps support himself by a trade he practices plus the small amount he gets from the conference. I think the difference between the two is clear. If Pastor Gilley is so well off that he can support himself as as tentmaker-style of minister of the gospel, then he should forgo his denominational salary---don't you think?

Blessings!
Side note:One reason most pastors burn out is that they actually overburden themselves, not by acquiring business interests, but by taking on too much responsibility within the church. A properly constituted church has active elders working in pastoral-type rolls. As a pastor's wife, you may understand how it is when the phone seems to ring all day--"Pastor, I need this; Pastor, please do that; etc"

In Two published books Mr. Gilley Clear states that becuase he has had successful outside business that he work for a dollar a year so i think that he has forgone the churchs money.

Erik

[Clay]

Personal financial benefits--and hidden ones--from a nonprofit to this $-tune are not just "something."

If Danny wanted to make 3ABN for-profit, that'd be different.

if Mr. Shelton was able to accrue personal financial benefits within the guidelines of a nonprofit .org what is the big deal? If he did something wrong report it, if the reporting agencies don't find anything wrong why continue to beat a dead horse...

[Clay]

Clay, in one sense I agree with you--I too have been saddened and frustrated by some of the finger pointing and name calling and unrelated minutia and trivia over all this. But what if you report "it" (philosophically speaking, something that is illegal or immoral or not right) and the powers that be are crooked, or not motivated to deal with it for whatever reason, or are prone to covering it up because they don't want a stink--then what? If those who are supposed to handle it are not handling it, and the damage is continuing, what is the responsibility of those who see it--or experience it?

If it involves state or federal laws and the appropriate agencies have opted not to do anything, then there is nothing else to be done..... What other powers that be are you referring to? The church? The organized church doesn't have to do anything, and what exactly would be reported? He divorced his wife? Adventists are getting divorced all the time. That the divorce settlement was not fair? Well the former Mrs. Shelton had a right to legal counsel, did she use that right? So now what else needs to be reported?

Through history, we have lots of examples of cover-ups--in our government, the nations of history, the church, and major corporations. Whistle blowers are rarely met with "Oh, NOW I see it--thanks so much for pointing it out--we will immediately fix it!" In fact, typically, the coverup deepens and intensifies, until the weight of evidence (like with ORU) becomes heavier than their ability to blow smoke and hide the evidence, and finally change takes place. Wars have been fought, impeachments have been conducted, trials have taken place. So it doesn't surprise me that this is playing out the way it is, or that both sides are looking for any pebble to add to their pile to help tip the scale in the favor of the direction they are fighting for. This process is usually not pretty, but if it did not happen, some things would never get handled...just my opinion...

shepherdswife

3abn matters to adventists.... to those of other churches 3abn is not even on the radar... so why the beating this horse into paste?

[PeacefulBe]

even if all the above is true, it really is NOT your business... if it is legal, then so be it.... if its not report it and let those who are suppose to handle it, handle it..... While I have no dog in this fight, it is really starting to trouble me that some who are following the 3abn thing have gone to such lengths to "find something" on Mr. Shelton..... I mean its like some of you are stalking his every move... I am sure there is something else that can be done with the time spent scrutinizing every detail of Mr. Shelton's life and business practices..... when is enough enough?

I do have a dog in this fight - getting to the truth about whether or not there was pastoral abuse of young men like Duane Clem by TS and whether or not Danny and other leaders participated in the cover-up of the behavior as charged. And I can understand the importance of several of the other issues, as well. But, I have to agree with you that it begins to appear like stalking. Sadly, it also starts to look like a bit of desperation as well.

While I enjoyed seeing the lovely pictures of the Gilley home that is now on the market, I really don't see it as appropriate to have posted them. Of course, that is JMO.

[Clay]

I do have a dog in this fight - getting to the truth about whether or not there was pastoral abuse of young men like Duane Clem by TS and whether or not Danny and other leaders participated in the cover-up of the behavior as charged. And I can understand the importance of several of the other issues, as well. But, I have to agree with you that it begins to appear like stalking. Sadly, it also starts to look like a bit of desperation as well.

While I enjoyed seeing the lovely pictures of the Gilley home that is now on the market, I really don't see it as appropriate to have posted them. Of course, that is JMO.

Danny Shelton did not abuse Mr. Clem.... and its my understanding that Mr. Clem has the right to press charges on anyone who he feels harmed him... if that has been done, then the justice system has to run its course. We are well aware that its one thing to go to court, and another to win in court... so what else is there?

[Richard Sherwin]

Since when have we expected our pastors to work for the church every waking moment of their lives. I know there are those that do that, and their finances and family suffer because of it. So we really expect them to work more than a 40 hour week?

Richard

[SoulEspresso]

Welcome, Jakann.

So you don't take this the wrong way, what I'm about to reply with is not personal in any way ... but at BSDA we tend to push points a bit and call people on assumptions, etc. (Ha! I just typed ect.)

To be sure, I did not use the phrase "24/7" but that's immaterial. How much less than 24/7 i.e. wholly committed service, should we as sheep be willing to accept from the shepherds over us? Is there ever an appropriate time for the shepherd to be occupied with another task?

Have you ever been there?

How about getting a call at 2 AM, not about a death, but about an obscure passage in the OT prophets?

Since you did ask for only the Biblical passages about pastors and their work I will assume that you are already familiar with the SOP counsel on this subject. Do you feel her counsel is appropriate?

Entirely appropriate to the people in the context to which she wrote. Beyond that, we have to extract principles.

The Levites, which are an Old Testament parallel to the NT pastor, in that they are both tithe-supported,

Do you believe in the Reformation concept of the "priesthood of all believers"? Put another way, can you show me in the Bible where it says New Testament pastors are the equivalent of OT Levites? Can you show me where New Testament pastors were tithe-supported? I just looked but I might have missed something ...

Never in the NT do we see the apostles putting aside the work of the gospel in order to make a few extra bucks on the side.

We can agree that making money was never the point, but working so as not to be a burden to others was. 1 Thessalonians 2:9 bears this out.

Acts 3:6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.

Out of context.

Please don't use the example of Paul as a pastor who ran a side business because he was a tentmaker--the first "Tentmaker" ministry, if you will. He usually forewent the use of tithe in his ministry. What I am talking about is full-time tithe-supported gospel ministers. Why would they need to do other business? There is a conference pastor not far from where I live who is in a rural district. There is not enough funds to support him on a full-time salary. He works as a "stipend" pastor. He helps support himself by a trade he practices plus the small amount he gets from the conference. I think the difference between the two is clear. If Pastor Gilley is so well off that he can support himself as as tentmaker-style of minister of the gospel, then he should forgo his denominational salary---don't you think?

If we're not to use biblical examples, what's the point of this discussion? We agree that the point is not making money for its own sake, but Christians, including pastors, can and should do what they can to financially benefit the cause of God. That's what Paul did with his tentmaker stuff, and still managed to be in full time ministry.

[Shepherdswife]

Thanks for the kind welcome to BlackSDA.

To be sure, I did not use the phrase "24/7" but that's immaterial. How much less than 24/7 i.e. wholly committed service, should we as sheep be willing to accept from the shepherds over us? Is there ever an appropriate time for the shepherd to be occupied with another task?

Since you did ask for only the Biblical passages about pastors and their work I will assume that you are already familiar with the SOP counsel on this subject. Do you feel her counsel is appropriate?

The Levites, which are an Old Testament parallel to the NT pastor, in that they are both tithe-supported, never engaged in business other than the wide-ranging ministry of the sanctuary and its services. The texts which confirm this are too many to quote here. Read Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. They couldn't even own land!
Never in the NT do we see the apostles putting aside the work of the gospel in order to make a few extra bucks on the side.
Acts 3:6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
Seems as though Peter did quite well without a side business.

Please don't use the example of Paul as a pastor who ran a side business because he was a tentmaker--the first "Tentmaker" ministry, if you will. He usually forewent the use of tithe in his ministry. What I am talking about is full-time tithe-supported gospel ministers. Why would they need to do other business? There is a conference pastor not far from where I live who is in a rural district. There is not enough funds to support him on a full-time salary. He works as a "stipend" pastor. He helps support himself by a trade he practices plus the small amount he gets from the conference. I think the difference between the two is clear. If Pastor Gilley is so well off that he can support himself as as tentmaker-style of minister of the gospel, then he should forgo his denominational salary---don't you think?

Blessings!
Side note:One reason most pastors burn out is that they actually overburden themselves, not by acquiring business interests, but by taking on too much responsibility within the church. A properly constituted church has active elders working in pastoral-type rolls. As a pastor's wife, you may understand how it is when the phone seems to ring all day--"Pastor, I need this; Pastor, please do that; etc"

Thanks for the thoughtful clarification... I used the phrase 24/7 to denote that they were full-time with no other job, not that they worked those hours. I was already aware of the SOP quotes, just curious about your Biblical sources.
We probably disagree as to how many of the requirements of the Levitical priesthood carry over--there are many requirements in the books that you mentioned that we do not seem to think apply to us today. But I understand your perspective better.
And we definitely agree that the pastor's role is not to take on everything in the church.
I believe Elder Gilley has worked a number of years for little or no pay from the church, so he seems to agree with you in that as well. I have seen the "bi-vocational" model used in rural areas in several conferences with good results. The members are less likely to assume that "the pastor is paid so he can do it--I am too busy making a living." My point being that "ministry" is not something that can only be done exclusively.

[beartrap]

Just a personal opinion, but I find it commendable that Gilley has not used ministry as a tool for amassing wealth. If one has the drive and ability to make a lot of money in business, and has the devotion to spend the time outside of that in ministry without using it as another money-making tool, I find that respectable.

[justice4jesus]

If it involves state or federal laws and the appropriate agencies have opted not to do anything, then there is nothing else to be done.....

Hi, Clay!


With all due respect to you as an administrator and a fellow poster, I must take issue with your above quote.

In cases where there is concrete evidence of wrongdoing (whether it be Danny/3ABN or anyone else) and the "powers that be" refuse to do anything about it, shouldn't "we the people" force the issue? It is our refusal to take action that has resulted in our country ending up in the shape that it is in. There are more and more people being deceptive and dishonest because the "powers that be" have gone soft, and as long as these "powers" will let it slide, it will continue....and get worse.

My position is that it is far past time to take our country back before it is gone forever. We need to make it clear that we are the ones who give power to these people, and that we can just as easily take it back again. When they abuse or otherwise misuse this power, we need to hold them accountable. We have the power, and we need to use it. Otherwise, we live in a dictatorship. I can't speak for anyone else, but to me, that just isn't an option.

Just a simple difference of opinion, Clay, but one that I feel quite strongly about. We should expect our officials to take their job seriously, and when they don't, we should force them to do so. If that doesn't work, it's time to boot them out.

Ah, the free exchange of ideas! That's why I'd LOVE to host my own talk show.

[Clay]

Hi, Clay!
With all due respect to you as an administrator and a fellow poster, I must take issue with your above quote.

In cases where there is concrete evidence of wrongdoing (whether it be Danny/3ABN or anyone else) and the "powers that be" refuse to do anything about it, shouldn't "we the people" force the issue? It is our refusal to take action that has resulted in our country ending up in the shape that it is in. There are more and more people being deceptive and dishonest because the "powers that be" have gone soft, and as long as these "powers" will let it slide, it will continue....and get worse.

My position is that it is far past time to take our country back before it is gone forever. We need to make it clear that we are the ones who give power to these people, and that we can just as easily take it back again. When they abuse or otherwise misuse this power, we need to hold them accountable. We have the power, and we need to use it. Otherwise, we live in a dictatorship. I can't speak for anyone else, but to me, that just isn't an option.

Just a simple difference of opinion, Clay, but one that I feel quite strongly about. We should expect our officials to take their job seriously, and when they don't, we should force them to do so. If that doesn't work, it's time to boot them out.

Ah, the free exchange of ideas! That's why I'd LOVE to host my own talk show.

is there concrete evidence that Mr. Shelton has done wrong? He divorced? the Adventist church allows for divorce, and while the divorce might be questionable to the church, the United States allows for divorce so where is the problem? Additionally it is not illegal to make money here in the U.S., so he is making money, where is the issue?

You say take back our country? From whom are we suppose to be taking it back from? Those who are in power are connected in ways that we probably would never even imagine, and they have lots of money... so how exactly do you suggest this "taking back" should be done?

Let me ask this, there is plenty of evidence of injustice here in the U.S., are we speaking out against it, seeking justice for those who have been done wrong? In fact I would venture to say what Mr. Shelton might have done pales in comparison to what large retail corporations perpetrate daily..... are we going after them? or do we just shop at their stores or use their products?

[Pickle]

even if all the above is true, it really is NOT your business...

You forget. Danny filed suit against me on April 5, 2007, making very specific allegations. By requiring me to defend myself, he has made some things my business that would not necessarily be otherwise.