A Time For Action Options

[icedragon]

I grew up in the underbelly of this church with both parents employed by the church and I've seen a lot of mess go down. I firmly believe that if more members would rise up and hold our leaders accountable (from pastors right on up to the GC president) we wouldn't have half this drama. The church belongs to the members, and by extension all of the ministries that our tithe and offerings support. We have a RIGHT and an OBLIGATION to question, demand answers, agitate for change, and put our money where our mouth is. With information comes responsibility.

This thread is about taking ACTION & ACCOUNTABILITY. Good topic. I do believe we have the power to effect that change. But we will need some organization and tools. Here is how I propose we effect change.

1. The first step is a Mass email campaign. To the Leaders in the in the Denomination, GC, NAD, then other divisions, Union level, conference level, Church level and member level to raise awareness of the our findings and what we want done about it. We should target 2 groups: A- 3ABN's viewer base
B- The major SDA centers of influence, Schools, colleges and universities, and Administrations centers, conference and unions.

2. In order to accomplish this, a document must be prepared with the findings. Information from Danny, Linda, DR. AA , Kay kuzma, Johann, Walter Thompson, and any other involved must be organized in an orderly way for distribution. I suppose it will be lengthy at least 20 pages. This then can be e-mailed. I think we need to hear from John Lomacang, and Mark Finely still as to there role in the situation, but we can proceed without it.

3. We should organize and decide which people will take what conference, what union offices, what colleges and what churches. It should not be hard to do e-mails are abundant and easily accessible. A sign up sheet might do it

4. We should tell them what we want? What do we want done from this?? Just some thoughts
a. From the Denomination - should we ask that all programs by the SDA church be banned from 3ABN until this situation is resolved? Sac Central, Pioneer Memorial, stuff like that.
b. All denominationally paid employees can not appear on 3ABN until this is resolved or risk loosing there jobs.
c. All Denominationally licensed Ministers cannot appear on 3abn until this is resolved or risk loosing their Ministerial License.
d. All funding for 3ABN from the denomination should be stopped until this is resolved.
If this is not met we should encourage people to with hold financial support

5. The denomanation must reaffirm the "biblical" Definition of divorce, Physical Adultery, not emotional, not spiritual, but Physical. You either did or did not do it. Just that simple.

6. The Denomination must reverse it policy on divorce to prevent divorce, NOT permit, and then deny remarriage. That does not work. The Shelton case in just one of many that have done this.

7. The Local pastor should not be granted the right to marry or divorce without consent from a Higher up I propose the Union level. This would take the pressure off the local pastor in divorce so he does not have to take sides and it would free up the conferences to administer without hard feelings, The Further the distance the more objective. Just my opinion.

8. The formation of a workers union might also be something we might propose. There are no safeguards for employees against the tyranny of leadership, with the exception for Moral lapse, Spiritual apostasy, or Theology Deference, violation of policy and incompetence, a person should not just be dismissed from employment, transfered or laid off. Power plays must go. Any "independent ministry" that wants access to the SDA church must comply with this, in order to have access to the SDA church members. It's just that simple. No shafting people. The Sheep are the church, not the administration. The administration exists to help the sheep not the other way around.


This should be a joint effort, between, CA, BSDA, MSDAOL and others Organization that might be other there. That is my proposal. Feel free to add any other suggestions or comments.

[simplysaved]

Thank you!!!! That is exactly what I mean.....What you have outlined is much more proactive, responsible, and will be much better received by those who will ultimately make the decisions..... This would better and more effectively initiate the independent investigation that Calvin has called for.

This thread is about taking ACTION & ACCOUNTABILITY. Good topic. I do believe we have the power to effect that change. But we will need some organization and tools. Here is how I propose we effect change.

1. The first step is a Mass email campaign. To the Leaders in the in the Denomination, GC, NAD, then other divisions, Union level, conference level, Church level and member level to raise awareness of the our findings and what we want done about it. We should target 2 groups: A- 3ABN's viewer base
B- The major SDA centers of influence, Schools, colleges and universities, and Administrations centers, conference and unions.

2. In order to accomplish this, a document must be prepared with the findings. Information from Danny, Linda, DR. AA , Kay kuzma, Johann, Walter Thompson, and any other involved must be organized in an orderly way for distribution. I suppose it will be lengthy at least 20 pages. This then can be e-mailed. I think we need to hear from John Lomacang, and Mark Finely still as to there role in the situation, but we can proceed without it.

3. We should organize and decide which people will take what conference, what union offices, what colleges and what churches. It should not be hard to do e-mails are abundant and easily accessible. A sign up sheet might do it

4. We should tell them what we want? What do we want done from this?? Just some thoughts
a. From the Denomination - should we ask that all programs by the SDA church be banned from 3ABN until this situation is resolved? Sac Central, Pioneer Memorial, stuff like that.
b. All denominationally paid employees can not appear on 3ABN until this is resolved or risk loosing there jobs.
c. All Denominationally licensed Ministers cannot appear on 3abn until this is resolved or risk loosing their Ministerial License.
d. All funding for 3ABN from the denomination should be stopped until this is resolved.
If this is not met we should encourage people to with hold financial support

5. The denomanation must reaffirm the "biblical" Definition of divorce, Physical Adultery, not emotional, not spiritual, but Physical. You either did or did not do it. Just that simple.

6. The Denomination must reverse it policy on divorce to prevent divorce, NOT permit, and then deny remarriage. That does not work. The Shelton case in just one of many that have done this.

7. The Local pastor should not be granted the right to marry or divorce without consent from a Higher up I propose the Union level. This would take the pressure off the local pastor in divorce so he does not have to take sides and it would free up the conferences to administer without hard feelings, The Further the distance the more objective. Just my opinion.

8. The formation of a workers union might also be something we might propose. There are no safeguards for employees against the tyranny of leadership, with the exception for Moral lapse, Spiritual apostasy, or Theology Deference, violation of policy and incompetence, a person should not just be dismissed from employment, transfered or laid off. Power plays must go. Any "independent ministry" that wants access to the SDA church must comply with this, in order to have access to the SDA church members. It's just that simple. No shafting people. The Sheep are the church, not the administration. The administration exists to help the sheep not the other way around.
This should be a joint effort, between, CA, BSDA, MSDAOL and others Organization that might be other there. That is my proposal. Feel free to add any other suggestions or comments.

[Clay]

Thank you!!!! That is exactly what I mean.....What you have outlined is much more proactive, responsible, and will be much better received by those who will ultimately make the decisions..... This would better and more effectively initiate the independent investigation that Calvin has called for.

then why didnt you suggest it.... oh I know... you were waiting on inspiration.....

[Nuggie]

Thank you!!!! That is exactly what I mean.....What you have outlined is much more proactive, responsible, and will be much better received by those who will ultimately make the decisions..... This would better and more effectively initiate the independent investigation that Calvin has called for.

How are IceDragon's suggestions different from what's already been discussed? We've talked about mass mailings, we've talked about flooding the various organizations with copies of the letters... Just curious on how these suggestions are "proactive and responsible" but the other suggestions (by implication) aren't.

[simplysaved]

Nope!! As I stated, those who are DIRECTLY involved and/or know first hand need to be the ones to initiate....it if is truly of God HE WILL TELL THEM....

then why didnt you suggest it.... oh I know... you were waiting on inspiration.....

[Clay]

Nope!! As I stated, those who are DIRECTLY involved and/or know first hand need to be the ones to initiate....it if is truly of God HE WILL TELL THEM....

oh hursh chile..... you didn't suggest it cause it hadn't hit ya yet....

[icedragon]

How are IceDragon's suggestions different from what's already been discussed? We've talked about mass mailings, we've talked about flooding the various organizations with copies of the letters... Just curious on how these suggestions are "proactive and responsible" but the other suggestions (by implication) aren't.

Some of what i have proposed is retred. some is new, but what I have not seen is the information fromailize in an orderly fashion. So I did it. The question is do you want to talk or act. Linda needs our help. are we going to give it to her or not. Your call. I for one want to help. I would have done it allready but I don't have the intreviews with Danny, LInda Kay, Johann Walter ect. If I have to do that then I will.

This post has been edited by icedragon: Jul 21 2006, 11:21 AM

[PrincessDrRe]

What did I miss?

Was it funny what Bro J said?

Then again - I guess it would be funny if it wasn't true.... now - if it is true it's not funny at all....

Again....

It's sad.....

Only you in your heart-of-hearts know if it was true or not...

[simplysaved]

I have had to address issues with those in high places one or twice ...God has called still these people (conference or laymen) regardless and we still have to address and confront sin in a way that will be respectful...and is Christian...because when it is all said and done, the investigation may not result in his removal or his influence...and then what? It is how you do what you do....not just doing it. And yes, if GOD places it on your heart, He will not tell you to do it in a way that is contrary to His Word or that is out of an emotional response. And I believe God will not give me a burden to do something and I do not have the morally responsibility to lead....that is scripture. If this is a Gideon moment, did not God tell Gideon what to do? Or Moses? Or Elijah?

It has been said over the 2 years that I have been here at BSDA time and time again how people in the SDA church do not forgive and move on ...what happens if God does not see (in the end of this investigation) that his sin is more important than God's purpose--through Danny? Are people ready to accept whatever outcome God chooses?

oh hursh chile..... you didn't suggest it cause it hadn't hit ya yet....

This post has been edited by simplysaved: Jul 20 2006, 11:35 AM

[princessdi]

Actually, Icedragon, within the massive amounts of information, all of that which you addressed has been mentioned. Some know this but generally overlook information until it is stated by someone from which they are willing to receive it, as if nobody else is going to remember that it has already been posted.

Some of what i have proposed is retred. some is new, but what I have not seen is the information fromailize in an orderly fashion. So I did it. The question is do you want to talk or act. Linda needs our help. are we going to give it to her or not. Your call. I for one want to help. I would have done it allready but I don't have the intrevies with Danny, LInda Kay, Johann Walter ect. If I have to do that then I will.

[Clay]

I have had to address issues with those in high places one or twice ...God has called still these people (conference or laymen) regardless and we still have to address and confront sin in a way that will be respectful...and is Christian...because when it is all said and done, the investigation may not result in his removal or his influence...and then what? It is how you do what you do....not just doing it. And yes, if GOD places it on your heart, He will not tell you to do it in a way that is contrary to His Word or that is out of an emotional response. And I believe God will not give me a burden to do something and I do not have the morally responsibility to lead....that is scripture. If this is a Gideon moment, did not God tell Gideon what to do? Or Moses? Or Elijah?

It has been said over the 2 years that I have been here at BSDA time and time again how people in the SDA church do not forgive and move on ...what happens if God does not see (in the end of this investigation) that his sin is more important than God's purpose--through Danny? Are people ready to accept whatever outcome God chooses?

where is that yawning smiley?

[simplysaved]

where is that yawning smiley?

[PrincessDrRe]

You arent concerned about character assassination when you take it upon yourself to 'warn' new forum members about other members they've not even spoken to yet... are those people too unimportant to get your selective indulgence?

You, based on your actions in this forum, should be the last one pointing fingers about character assassination... you are hardly without sin in that regard... so drop the rock.

May seem BUT it really is ON TOPIC!

Lemmie rephrase my question so that it is totally understood....

Directed toward Simply.....

Is what Bro J stated about "character assassination" (underlined portion above) toward others true of you? If so - then why all the problem with the questioning and concern about Danny?

If it is not true then you do actually have a point.

Remember - remotely true - you have not a leg to stand on.
Remember - not true - you have a point.

This post has been edited by PrincessDrRe: Jul 20 2006, 12:00 PM

[alramwill]

If this is true, then I take issue with this, regardless of your flippant response to Mr. J's post....

May seem BUT it really is ON TOPIC!

Lemmie rephrase my question so that it is totally understood....

Directed toward Simply.....

Is what Bro J stated about "character assassination" (underlined portion above) toward others true of you? If so - then why all the problem with the questioning and concern about Danny?

If it is not true then you do actually have a point.

Remember - remotely true - you have not a leg to stand on.
Remember - not true - you have a point.

You beat me to it....

[awesumtenor]

May seem BUT it really is ON TOPIC!

Lemmie rephrase my question so that it is totally understood....

Directed toward Simply.....

Is what Bro J stated about "character assassination" (underlined portion above) toward others true of you? If so - then why all the problem with the questioning and concern about Danny?

If it is not true then you do actually have a point.

Remember - remotely true - you have not a leg to stand on.
Remember - not true - you have a point.

It's true; she's admitted doing it and she even started a thread fishing for suggestions of what/whom to warn new members about...

In His service,
Mr. J