A Viewer's Version, Another side of the story Options

[country bumpkin]

I guess implying that all in the US are unconverted was a bit extreme. It’s just that I was raised in the church and have been around Adventist institutions most of my life and have yet to find a person that I can personally say makes me think of what Christ is like. Even the soft spoken, sweet talking ultra-conservatives have issues with no answers. You know I heard James Rafferty say something one day that struck me. He said that when people quote. “This gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world for a witness to all nations, and then shall the end come,” that people forget that the main emphasis of that text is witness. People want to see the gospel lived in the lives of God’s people.

Now my mother is an ultra conservative Adventist, and one day she was discussing religion with my Baptist sister-in-law. My sister-in-law said something that struck me and saddened me, but it was something I could not argue with. She stated that she didn’t see any reason to become an Adventist, because the only difference between us and them was that we worshipped on a different day and had more rules. It struck me that she did not see any difference in us as people than the rest of the world and when I stopped and thought about it, I could not think of anybody I knew who was any different from the rest of the world. Not the wild in-you-face devilish world, but the rest of the conservative Christian world. It made me sad, but I didn’t know what to do or how to answer her. But praise God, I think I may have found something. This book appears to have the answers, and if it does and my kids see a difference in me, and I can have that peace that passes ALL understanding, then hey!!!!

And you may be wondering what it is I’m looking for. Its THE light in the eyes, THE joy in the heart, and THE peace that passes ALL understanding. I when I find it, or someone with it, I’m sure I’ll know it.

Country

[country bumpkin]

To Sonshineonme,

You probably feel as if I have been deliberately ignoring you. Well, I have. Why? Because I did not want to “go there”, as they say. Well, here is my opinion as to what you have said. Danny needs a heart transplant. Linda needs a heart transplant. I need a heart transplant. Linda has class, Danny doesn’t. So am I supposed to hate Danny because he is a sinner with no class and love Linda because she is a sinner with class? I think not. Last I checked my Bible said I was to “Love the unlovely.” What more can I say? Sorry I couldn't be of more help.

CB

[sonshineonme]

To Sonshineonme,

You probably feel as if I have been deliberately ignoring you. Well, I have. Why? Because I did not want to “go there”, as they say. Well, here is my opinion as to what you have said. Danny needs a heart transplant. Linda needs a heart transplant. I need a heart transplant. Linda has class, Danny doesn’t. So am I supposed to hate Danny because he is a sinner with no class and love Linda because she is a sinner with class? I think not. Last I checked my Bible said I was to “Love the unlovely.” What more can I say? Sorry I couldn't be of more help.

CB

Actually, I never thought you were ignoring me. It matters not either way if you reply to my comments about your post. I have no clue how you arrived at your post here based on what I said.

Maybe you could just read what I wrote once more. Maybe you don't care to. My attempt to "help you" didn't seem to do the job. You say you don't want to go "there" - where is "there"??
You want to play the middle so much, you are afraid to say what is appearant? We are talking about someone who is influencing people everyday - across the world - that's a huge weight of accountibility to just treat so lightly. He's not just someone who is "not classy" but is outright deceiving people, and going to great lengths everyday to be TOTALLY BLAMELESS in ALL THINGS. I don't care that we all need heart transplants? That's nothing new under the sun for us sinners....lets stick to the issues. I told you that you should not discard things. You were sarcastic and blaming of others possibly having an agenda. "Sister and her crew" as you say.... I told you to remain open. I guess I don't understand your reply back....maybe it's better left alone.

[country bumpkin]

Sonshineonme,

I like that name, it has so much meaning! Anyway, I meant to add this, but I forgot. If Danny has done all that you say he has, even with the plastic smile on his face, he has to feel a wretchedness in his soul, the weight of which I can't imagine. Now I don’t know you and don’t need to, but if you do work at 3ABN, and if you have had a heart transplant, let him not only see the Son shine on you, but let him see the Son shine through you! You may be the witness he needs to change his heart so that he can have the transplant he needs. Then everyone at 3ABN will know that there is a real and powerful God who can change even the craftiest sinner.

CB

[sonshineonme]

Sonshineonme,

I like that name, it has so much meaning! Anyway, I meant to add this, but I forgot. If Danny has done all that you say he has, even with the plastic smile on his face, he has to feel a wretchedness in his soul, the weight of which I can't imagine. Now I don’t know you and don’t need to, but if you do work at 3ABN, and if you have had a heart transplant, let him not only see the Son shine on you, but let him see the Son shine through you! You may be the witness he needs to change his heart so that he can have the transplant he needs. Then everyone at 3ABN will know that there is a real and powerful God who can change even the craftiest sinner.

CB

Those are nice words. It would be nice if it worked that way. But like Pharoah, once his heart was hardened, very little would or could penetrate a persons hardend heart. Every day Dan makes another choice to harden it a bit more - stick to his guns. Nothing I can do, but pray for him, can help him soften.
Again, you have simplified things, and that's nice in a way, but at the same time, you have to also realize that mans heart sickness, namely selfishness and pride can seperate him from God. God does not leave, but God does become unable to reach a persons heart if that person continuously discards God's voice. Dan (and I have evidence of this) will NOT change his ways. He apparently has not hit bottom enough to do so. And some (and I have seen and wittnessed this as well) can be so ill-hearted that they will never, or should I say, choose never to change or make different choices. Do you understand what a sociopath is? A narcisist is? This has been talked about with some of my friends, can Dan change? Can he be helped? Will he ever be willing to own up, confess, repent and change his ways, his thinking, his actions? When a person lives in such a way to make choices everyday to put SELF first, while it can be done, remember, the person with the hardend heart has to WANT to change. Many don't want to and never intend to. It's just that simple. That is what choice is all about.

(pardon any typos, please)

This post has been edited by sonshineonme: Sep 8 2006, 12:14 AM

[Clay]

I guess implying that all in the US are unconverted was a bit extreme. It’s just that I was raised in the church and have been around Adventist institutions most of my life and have yet to find a person that I can personally say makes me think of what Christ is like. Even the soft spoken, sweet talking ultra-conservatives have issues with no answers. You know I heard James Rafferty say something one day that struck me. He said that when people quote. “This gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world for a witness to all nations, and then shall the end come,” that people forget that the main emphasis of that text is witness. People want to see the gospel lived in the lives of God’s people.

snip.........
Country

That is interesting because I have met several people like that.... one in particular is T.Marshall Kelly, pastor and singer.... when you meet Elder Kelly its like the love of God washes over you in waves..... that man is not religious, he is spiritual, and after talking with him you get a sense of what relationship with God is really like...... there are others, but he stands out, and other people here on the forum may have met him and can vouch for what i am saying......

[simplysaved]

That is the reason it is so important for us to "live" Jesus and not just be "no different" than anyone else....

I guess implying that all in the US are unconverted was a bit extreme. It’s just that I was raised in the church and have been around Adventist institutions most of my life and have yet to find a person that I can personally say makes me think of what Christ is like. Even the soft spoken, sweet talking ultra-conservatives have issues with no answers. You know I heard James Rafferty say something one day that struck me. He said that when people quote. “This gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world for a witness to all nations, and then shall the end come,” that people forget that the main emphasis of that text is witness. People want to see the gospel lived in the lives of God’s people.

Now my mother is an ultra conservative Adventist, and one day she was discussing religion with my Baptist sister-in-law. My sister-in-law said something that struck me and saddened me, but it was something I could not argue with. She stated that she didn’t see any reason to become an Adventist, because the only difference between us and them was that we worshipped on a different day and had more rules. It struck me that she did not see any difference in us as people than the rest of the world and when I stopped and thought about it, I could not think of anybody I knew who was any different from the rest of the world. Not the wild in-you-face devilish world, but the rest of the conservative Christian world. It made me sad, but I didn’t know what to do or how to answer her. But praise God, I think I may have found something. This book appears to have the answers, and if it does and my kids see a difference in me, and I can have that peace that passes ALL understanding, then hey!!!!

And you may be wondering what it is I’m looking for. Its THE light in the eyes, THE joy in the heart, and THE peace that passes ALL understanding. I when I find it, or someone with it, I’m sure I’ll know it.

Country

He truly is.... I have a video tape with a message that I will never forget personally, because of what was spoken by the Holy Spirit through him, just for me...

Elder Kelly is a Man of God, and God gives me a prophetic to speak....he has been a great source of spiritual encouragement and gave it all up to serve the Lord---a career as jazz singer and the works.....very inspirational.

That is interesting because I have met several people like that.... one in particular is T.Marshall Kelly, pastor and singer.... when you meet Elder Kelly its like the love of God washes over you in waves..... that man is not religious, he is spiritual, and after talking with him you get a sense of what relationship with God is really like...... there are others, but he stands out, and other people here on the forum may have met him and can vouch for what i am saying......

This post has been edited by simplysaved: Sep 8 2006, 06:32 AM

[country bumpkin]

I must admit I have never met T. Marshal Kelly. I have heard him speak and I have appreciated his ministry on 3ABN, as to meeting him personally, I have not had the privilage. It's comforting to know that there are some that people can come in contact with and feel the presence of the Lord.
Thank you Clay.

Well, Sonshineonme,

As the Honburgers say, Simplify, Simplify, Simplify. I have found that if you let it, life becomes over complicated. I am also finding out that that also applies to the gospel. Back “in the day” things used to be black and white. Now there are so many shades of gray that there is not right and wrong any more. Well, I’ve decided to get back to basics. Either you are converted or you are not. Either you will face God in peace or you will not. I can’t read the heart. I will not claim someone has gone too far, for as I judge, so shall it be judged unto me and I need all the mercy I can get.

[PeacefulBe]

How could you forget HOTY?

My bad, HOTY!

[September]

As the Honburgers say, Simplify, Simplify, Simplify. I have found that if you let it, life becomes over complicated. I am also finding out that that also applies to the gospel. Back “in the day” things used to be black and white. Now there are so many shades of gray that there is not right and wrong any more. Well, I’ve decided to get back to basics. Either you are converted or you are not. Either you will face God in peace or you will not. I can’t read the heart. I will not claim someone has gone too far, for as I judge, so shall it be judged unto me and I need all the mercy I can get.
[/quote]

The Bible does say that we will know them by their fruits. It's true, we do not sit in judgement regarding Danny or Linda--or anyone else for that matter. But we can often know a person's character by their actions (fruit). Comparing Dann's "fruit" with Linda's "Fruit" there is a vast difference. While he has publically trashed Linda and says he has proof for his accusations against her and yet fails to bring forth that evidence--his fruit is rotten! Linda on the other hand has kept silent, except for only speaking good of 3ABN and it's ministry. She has not publically slandered Danny. She has kept a very humble attitude about the whole thing--as devastating as it has been for her. Danny has always been so full of pride ever since I first watched him on 3ABN--I could tell that he relishes his position and the attention he gets. He also allowed people to sit around him several weeks ago on a "Live" program and declare that he was annointed by God--a man of God. He allowed John L. to say that to turn your back on Danny--God's annointed--was turning your back on God. A true man of God--a humble man of God would never allow that to be said! If Danny was indeed a man of God, he would have stopped John L right then and there and said, "NO! Don't look at me--look to God--do not equate me with God for I am not worthy!" But instead, he sat there with a smirk on his face, basking in it--taking it all in.

These are fruits that are very telling of a person's character. No, I'm not judging Danny--because that's God's job--but I'm saying that by Danny's fruits--the outpouring from his lips, actions, etc., he's in a very dangerous spot and he needs to repent.

We all have sinned--we all need a heart change. We can tell when one has had a heart change by the actions, words, etc., of such a person.

It's true that if we are in tune with the Heart of Christ that we will be different--that we will exude Christ. Satan either recoils at this--or he works harder. Either way, if we are in Christ we will not be moved! This is how I view Linda's position. She has a heart for Christ--always has. Satan isn't happy because Linda was helping people connect with Jesus on a heart level. He has been working harder at taking the rug out from underneath Linda, but Linda's testimony--her influence, her humble character cannot be moved as long as her heart is connected with Jesus. Nothing that Danny can do or say will change that fact.

"My hope is built on nothing less, than Jesus blood and righteousness...on Christ the solid rock I stand--all other ground is sinking sand"!

September

This post has been edited by September: Sep 8 2006, 10:34 AM

[PeacefulBe]

Those are nice words. It would be nice if it worked that way. But like Pharoah, once his heart was hardened, very little would or could penetrate a persons hardend heart. Every day Dan makes another choice to harden it a bit more - stick to his guns. Nothing I can do, but pray for him, can help him soften.
Again, you have simplified things, and that's nice in a way, but at the same time, you have to also realize that mans heart sickness, namely selfishness and pride can seperate him from God. God does not leave, but God does become unable to reach a persons heart if that person continuously discards God's voice. Dan (and I have evidence of this) will NOT change his ways. He apparently has not hit bottom enough to do so. And some (and I have seen and wittnessed this as well) can be so ill-hearted that they will never, or should I say, choose never to change or make different choices. Do you understand what a sociopath is? A narcisist is? This has been talked about with some of my friends, can Dan change? Can he be helped? Will he ever be willing to own up, confess, repent and change his ways, his thinking, his actions? When a person lives in such a way to make choices everyday to put SELF first, while it can be done, remember, the person with the hardend heart has to WANT to change. Many don't want to and never intend to. It's just that simple. That is what choice is all about.

(pardon any typos, please)

It's true that "By their fruits ye shall know them". I have read and reread your post and still believe that we here on earth have no business trying to judge if a person's heart is hardened or so set in his ways that he can't be helped.

You mentioned that the only thing you can do is pray for him. I actually 100% heartily agree with this statement. 1John 5:16 - 17 states:
"If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. 17All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death. "

Both Mark Finley and James Rafferty have spoken on this in the last few years. It has been a great comfort to me to know that I can ask that the most powerful Force in the universe be directed to the hearts of my loved ones simply by asking Him to do so.

[country bumpkin]

I just have one question. How would you have judged Saul of Tarsus' fruit before the Damascus road experience. God alone can read the heart and he alone knows who is redeemable.

[simplysaved]

Now that was an EXCELLENT point....

I just have one question. How would you have judged Saul of Tarsus' fruit before the Damascus road experience. God alone can read the heart and he alone knows who is redeemable.

[princessdi]

Saul was doing according to what he had been taught. The followers of Jesus were considered enemies of the "church" at that point, therefore enemies of God. Unfortunately, he was taught by those who didn't have a clue.

Danny is being asked to acknowledge, answer, and repair, as far as possible, the many trangessions he has done against others. He is not unredemable as long as he beathes. I think I used the example of a child who spills his milk or breaks a window. They can apologize, but you, as a parent, will also tell them they need to clean up their mess, use their allowance to fix that window, etc. It is not enough to say you are sorry, and not make amends if you can.

Also, in my experience, those like Danny, will not even acknowledge their wrongs if you don't. They can even be aware that you know about them, but if you don't actually bring it to their direct attention, not only will they also act as if they have done nothing, their behavior will escalate(sp). Getting bolder with each new offense. At least Danny knows and can see in black and white that somebody knows about his errant ways, it is now up to him. If Danny did the right thing today, I don't think there is a person here who would continue to have a problem with him, but he has yet to even acknowledge that he has done wrong. He persists and perfers in playing the victim to those who are not fully aware of his many misdeeds. IOW, he is using the tool God allowed him to spread the Gospel to lead people astray and abusing his postion of trust. That is not acceptable.

I just have one question. How would you have judged Saul of Tarsus' fruit before the Damascus road experience. God alone can read the heart and he alone knows who is redeemable.

[sonshineonme]

Saul was doing according to what he had been taught. The followers of Jesus were considered enemies of the "church" at that point, therefore enemies of God. Unfortunately, he was taught by those who didn't have a clue.

Danny is being asked to acknowledge, answer, and repair, as far as possible, the many trangessions he has done against others. He is not unredemable as long as he beathes. I think I used the example of a child who spills his milk or breaks a window. They can apologize, but you, as a parent, will also tell them they need to clean up their mess, use their allowance to fix that window, etc. It is not enough to say you are sorry, and not make amends if you can.

Also, in my experience, those like Danny, will not even acknowledge their wrongs if you don't. They can even be aware that you know about them, but if you don't actually bring it to their direct attention, not only will they also act as if they have done nothing, their behavior will escalate(sp). Getting bolder with each new offense. At least Danny knows and can see in black and white that somebody knows about his errant ways, it is now up to him. If Danny did the right thing today, I don't think there is a person here who would continue to have a problem with him, but he has yet to even acknowledge that he has done wrong. He persists and perfers in playing the victim to those who are not fully aware of his many misdeeds. IOW, he is using the tool God allowed him to spread the Gospel to lead people astray and abusing his postion of trust. That is not acceptable.

Well said Di! Thanks for covering it so well - I was ready to jump in and then saw your post. Lets home all this "simplifying" in order to remove the "gray areas" does not send us back to another extreme where we just want to grab on to the easy answers and move on. Things are not that simple. The devil doesn't operate that simply, we better not think that simply.