A Viewer's Version, Another side of the story Options

[awesumtenor]

Don't you think putting phone numbers out there is rather unethical? Yes, you did leave off the last two digits - but you drastically reduced the permutation so that someone who has a little time might work it out. Seems like, while not stepping over the line, you have your toes firmly on the other side.

- fhb

Just once I'd like you to not "not see the forest for the trees". Now that you've picked your nit, explain why the conversations Danny had with Brenda or any other woman not his wife were not evidence of his own infidelity, if we do according to Matthew 7 and judge him by the same measure by which he judged Linda?

In His service,
Mr. J

[Panama_Pete]

Don't you think putting phone numbers out there is rather unethical? Yes, you did leave off the last two digits - but you drastically reduced the permutation so that someone who has a little time might work it out. Seems like, while not stepping over the line, you have your toes firmly on the other side.

- fhb

Beartrap was identifying exactly which phone numbers to check.

If he had gone the other way and not identified them, you would have said his argument was weak, because these folks might have several phones, etc., etc., etc., and someone might check the wrong telephones, etc.,etc., etc. And if they are unlisted, how would he even have those numbers, etc., etc., etc.

To your credit, you did skillfully avoid the context of the post, which is that Brenda and Danny most likely had quite a few of those "spiritual adultery" phone calls of their own.

So, when it comes to "the other side," you need look no further than your own front door.

[Clay]

Beartrap was identifying exactly which phone numbers to check.

If he had gone the other way and not identified them, you would have said his argument was weak, because these folks might have several phones, etc., etc., etc., and someone might check the wrong telephones, etc.,etc., etc. And if they are unlisted, how would he even have those numbers, etc., etc., etc.

To your credit, you did skillfully avoid the context of the post, which is that Brenda and Danny most likely had quite a few of those "spiritual adultery" phone calls of their own.

So, when it comes to "the other side," you need look no further than your own front door.

I noticed that too... never dealt with the actions of Mr. Shelton which were questionable.... just reacted to the phone numbers....

[sonshineonme]

Don't you think putting phone numbers out there is rather unethical? Yes, you did leave off the last two digits - but you drastically reduced the permutation so that someone who has a little time might work it out. Seems like, while not stepping over the line, you have your toes firmly on the other side.

- fhb

Maybe it's just me, but he left off the last FOUR, that's 4 digits of the number...or am I seeing things wrong? I think I can count....

and...do you need the last 4 of each to check?

This post has been edited by sonshineonme: Sep 9 2006, 04:36 PM

[Clay]

Maybe it's just me, but he left off the last FOUR, that's 4 digits of the number...or am I seeing things wrong? I think I can count....

and...do you need the last 4 of each to check?

initially he left off the last 2 digits, then he edited that......

[calvin]

Maybe it's just me, but he left off the last FOUR, that's 4 digits of the number...or am I seeing things wrong? I think I can count....

and...do you need the last 4 of each to check?

Beartrap came back and edited the post to leave off the last four.

[sonshineonme]

Beartrap came back and edited the post to leave off the last four.

Thanks, guys, I was hoping we all knew how to count....shew!

[fallible humanbe...]

Beartrap was identifying exactly which phone numbers to check.

If he had gone the other way and not identified them, you would have said his argument was weak, because these folks might have several phones, etc., etc., etc., and someone might check the wrong telephones, etc.,etc., etc. And if they are unlisted, how would he even have those numbers, etc., etc., etc.

To your credit, you did skillfully avoid the context of the post, which is that Brenda and Danny most likely had quite a few of those "spiritual adultery" phone calls of their own.

So, when it comes to "the other side," you need look no further than your own front door.

PP,

Make you a deal Pete, when you go back and deal with the meat of the post I put up yesterday (or was it the day before) in regards to the paper thin exercise in trying to connect 3ABN or Danny to David Koresh then . . . shoot, no, here you go, because I don't expect you to deal with the meat of a post like that . . .

BT need not have put phone numbers out there, the were superfluous (unless of course he wanted someone to do the leg work and try to discover information about these phone bills so needed to make it as easy as possible without crossing and legal lines). The claims he made in the post were not new. That claim - which has no foundation other than perception - has been made before.

Now if you want to explain to me why they were necessary I am more than willing to listen - and if it makes sense accept your explanation.

- fhb

[Panama_Pete]

BT need not have put phone numbers out there, the were superfluous (unless of course he wanted someone to do the leg work and try to discover information about these phone bills so needed to make it as easy as possible without crossing and legal lines). The claims he made in the post were not new. That claim - which has no foundation other than perception - has been made before.

Now if you want to explain to me why they were necessary I am more than willing to listen - and if it makes sense accept your explanation.

Beartrap came back, shortly thereafter, and edited out most of those phone numbers, so now you can rest happily.

PP,

Make you a deal Pete, when you go back and deal with the meat of the post I put up yesterday (or was it the day before) in regards to the paper thin exercise in trying to connect 3ABN or Danny to David Koresh then . . . shoot, no, here you go, because I don't expect you to deal with the meat of a post like that . . .

Did you notice you avoided stating your part of your own "deal." Only my part is mentioned? That's quite some "deal" you offered.

As for me not responding, are you projecting your own system of posting on me?

First, we have to go back to your post which is:

"First, when checking the source material used by PP there is no suggestion that Pastor Gilley baptised Vernon Howell (aka David Koresh). There is no claim that he was baptised at the seminar or even as a result of the seminar, it is merely a statement that he came into contact with Biblical prophecy in 1979 and was baptised in 1979.

Additionally, Pastor Gilley was in Tyler, Texas to do an evangelistic series and did not "teach" Howell anything other than what is traditionally presented in any Daniel and Revelation seminar. There is no insinuation that Gilley had anything to do with Koresh's eventual delusions of grandeur in either source - it merely gives the name of the pastor giving the seminar.

Connecting Danny or anyone at 3ABN to the Branch Davidians (either Koresh or Schnieder) couldn't hold water in the ocean. This trial balloon/red herring needs to go the way of other unsubstantiated ideas in the process of this discussion. "

I can speak to that which I wrote.

Others who made several posts in the thread may want to anwer for themselves. For example, your reference to people named Schneider in Wisconsin was not mentioned by me. Therefore, there would be no way for me to respond to it. I am familiar with Wisconsin dairy products, but that's about it for Wisconsin.

Actually, the first two links I posted stated the Gilley's Revelation Seminar was held at Tyler and the David Howell baptism was held at Tyler - both in 1979. Those are just historical facts. They are what they are. If you look closely, you will notice that all of the information in the first two links I posted were historical sources. Historical facts are what they are. I posted them, but I did not write them.

The "trial balloon and red herring" mixed metaphors were your own and constitute your own opinion. I don't have to respond to your trial balloon idea because it is your theory, not mine.

The information in the third link is from the current 3ABN Web site. It, too, is what it is. I did not write that, either. I just posted it. In a printed book, these sources would come with appropriate footnotes, noting the source and giving credit to the authors.

I, do think -- and I said -- that those three links are interesting. That was and is my opinion. Interest is in the eye of the beholder.

I also said, "I can see why some here would sense shades of David Koresh." Others here, have indeed, mentioned David Koresh in several different places. They may choose to answer, giving their reasons, themselves, if they have not already done so.

So, what was your actual point? If you are talking about the relevancy of the standard "Revelation Seminar", that should go into another topical section because I don't believe in scaring people into the church with stories of hailstones the size of Volkswaggons. Please don't assume everyone endorses what you call Daniel and Revelation Seminars. Many people don't. Some believe using scare tactics is counterproductive. On some people, who are susceptible to those "delusions" you mentioned, scare tactics can be highly destructive. There could be an entire thread just on that subject.

First and foremost, I believe people need a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, rather than be frightened into the church by "End Time" events. People who enter the church for the wrong reasons, who find no relationship to Jesus, typically leave after a time.

If there is some other "meat" in my own post that I missed, you'll have to point it out, at the same time you respond to your part of the "deal" whatever you decide that part is going to be.

Here are those links, again, and my comment if you missed them.

[emphasis in red is mine]:

http://www.davekopel.com/Waco/Book/waprolog.htm

"In 1979, at the age of twenty, Howell began attending a Seventh-Day Adventist (SDA) church in Tyler, Texas . Howell attended a church-sponsored revival meeting featuring traveling evangelist Jim Gilley's "Revelation Seminars." Gilley's multimedia events warned that the fantastic, frightening Apocalypse foretold in the Book of Revelation could take place soon. Howell was fascinated."

Next, I shall quote from the following Web site of the Revised Waco Chronology:

http://www.skepticfiles.org/waco/batf.htm

"In 1979 Vernon Howell was baptised into the Tyler, Texas Seventh-day Adventist Church."

[Now quoting from the 3ABN Web site]

Notice who is speaking at this month's 3ABN Fall Campmeeting:

Thursday, September 28, 2006

4:00pm-7:00pm - Booths (Commercial/Informational) Open

Evening Program:

LIVE--Main Auditorium
8:00-10:00pm - Danny open/testimonies/music
Music:
Sermon: James Gilley

--

It was interesting to learn that the same pastor would be at the 3ABN Compound in a few weeks. I can see why some here would sense shades of David Koresh. "

This post has been edited by Panama_Pete: Sep 9 2006, 07:12 PM

[fallible humanbe...]

Did you notice you avoided stating your part of your own "deal." Only my part is mentioned? That's quite some "deal" you offered.

As for me not responding, are you projecting your own system of posting on me?

Thanks for your response Pete - the current pop psychology word du jour "projecting" aside, I really did appreciate it and will respond more fully (avoiding legal brief sized responses) later. But I do think it important to note that the second web site you referenced did contain this warning right at the very beginning . . .

Warning: Some of this material contains claims that will prove to be rumor and conjecture. In addition, some will find this material offensive.

BTW, I am not a fan of the "scare 'em in" method either. I grew up in a time when they were always called D & R semiars and they had those wonderful flyers with all the Star Wars looking beasts on the front.

As for my point, it was that what I observed in that thread was the development of a paper thin theory based on weak specualtion and conjecture - meaning the idea that some how there is a connection between Danny or Schnieder/Koresh is fantastical and there needs to be a move away from that to things that can be substantiated.

And you are right, I did not address the issue of the potential for perceived impropriety - and that would be my part of the deal, so give me the chance to come back to that later and fulfill my end of the deal.

- fhb

[country bumpkin]

It appears I am not getting my points across. My main premise is that we must have a true heart conversion. What exactly does that mean? It means that as Christians we are to have the heart (mind) of Christ. That means no hatred, anger, bitterness, resentment, impatience, irritation, jealousy and selfishness. That means that we must have all of the Fruit (singular) of the Spirit which are love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance. Now maybe you know an abundance of individuals that in no way practice any of the first set and are such complete selfless people that they have all of the qualities of the second set. Well, I don’t and in my opinion, only those that do, have the right to condemn Danny, because the rest of us are in the same boat as he is, no matter what he has done. We are a church of good people. We are a church of moral people, but are we a church of truly converted people? And, also in my opinion, anyone that does have a true heart conversion would not be out there trying to condemn anyone. They would be trying to redeem the lost, if not personally, because they have no contact, but at least through the power of prayer. It is amazing what God can do for his people when they ask.

Here is are a few quotes from the book,

Unless you accept in your own life the principle of self-sacrificing love, which is the principle of His character, you cannot know God. MB 25

Love is the basis of godliness. Whatever the profession, no man has pure love to God unless he has unselfish love for his brother. But we can never come into possession of this spirit by trying to love others. What is needed is the love of Christ in the heart. When self is merged in Christ, true love springs forth spontaneously. The completeness of Christian character is attained when the impulse to help and bless others springs constantly from within. COL 384

Many who profess to follow Christ have not genuine religion. They do not reveal in their lives the fruit of true conversion. They are controlled by the same habits, the same spirit of faultfinding and selfishness, which controlled them before they accepted Christ.

No one can enter the city of God who has not a knowledge of genuine conversion. In true conversion the soul is born again. A new spirit takes possession of the temple of the soul. A new life begins. Christ is revealed in the character. RH 7-30-1901

Now I am not trying to be judgmental, but I keep getting the feeling from Sonshineonme and others that if I don’t bend to their pressure and admit that Danny is a hopeless soul that needs to be committed to the fires of hell to burn almost as long as Satan himself, that I am a deluded simpleton, not willing to accept the reality of the situation. Well, until I see the spirit of Christ shine through you, I will just be a deluded simpleton.

I would just like to add one thing. Christ was not an accuser but a redeemer.

Country,

P.S. The book has answers. It’s called “What Shall I do to Inherit Eternal Life?”

[country bumpkin]

A Little “Food For Thought”!

Evilspeaking is a twofold curse, falling more heavily upon the speaker than upon the hearer. He who scatters the seeds of dissension and strife reaps in his own soul the deadly fruits. How miserable is the talebearer, the surmiser of evil! He is a stranger to true happiness.--5T 176. {VSS 139.2}
Oh, how much time is worse than wasted by evilspeaking. Because of this sin, not half is accomplished that might be accomplished. Men and women become mischief makers for Satan, and, going to this one and that one, place in their minds the leaven of evil, prejudicing them against a brother or a sister who, they say, has done wrong. The thoughts of those thus influenced are disturbed, their peace is destroyed, and their confidence in their brethren is weakened. {18MR 198.1}
Those who do this evil work are departing from Christ to follow one who is teaching them to love and make a lie. Whatever their position in the service of God, they are dishonoring Him, and Christ says to them, "I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love." All their qualifications and capabilities, however commendable they may apparently be, will not supply the deficiency resulting from the lack of Christ like love. {18MR 198.2}
I feel so saddened, so discouraged, by the thought that my brethren are willing to listen to and circulate hearsay. I know that the Spirit of God will not cooperate with those who, by their criticisms, their evil-surmising, and their hardheartedness are helping Satan. God says to them, "Thou hast left thy first love. . . . Repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly," that is, "I will not bear long with your perverse spirit, which leads you to cherish envy and evil-surmising." {18MR 198.3}
Seeds of Doubt a Service of Satan--Let us guard against speaking words that discourage. Let us resolve never to engage in evilspeaking and backbiting. Let us refuse to serve Satan by implanting seeds of doubt. Let us guard against cherishing unbelief, or expressing it to others. Many, many times I have wished that there might be circulated a pledge containing a solemn promise to speak only those words that are pleasing to God. There is as great need for such a pledge as there is for one against the use of intoxicating liquor. Let us begin to discipline the tongue, remembering always that we can do this only by disciplining the mind, for "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh." Matt. 12:34.--OHC 291. {VSS 158.2}

If you will notice, she did not qualify this by saying that it was alright if the things that were being said were true.

[PeacefulBe]

A Little “Food For Thought”!

Those who do this evil work are departing from Christ to follow one who is teaching them to love and make a lie.

If you will notice, she did not qualify this by saying that it was alright if the things that were being said were true.

CB these are great statements but she did qualify them in the sentence I highlighted.

I heartily agree with all of the quotes. The tongue can certainly be mightier than the sword. I have seen some of this right here on BSDA but Calvin and Clay are pretty good at getting things back on track.

Sister White didn't pull any punches when the truth needed to be told. Of course her Source of Information was completely infallible and verifiable!

[västergötland]

I would just like to add one thing. Christ was not an accuser but a redeemer.

Country,

P.S. The book has answers. It's called "What Shall I do to Inherit Eternal Life?"

Is the book a EW compilation?

[country bumpkin]

CB these are great statements but she did qualify them in the sentence I highlighted.

I heartily agree with all of the quotes. The tongue can certainly be mightier than the sword. I have seen some of this right here on BSDA but Calvin and Clay are pretty good at getting things back on track.

Sister White didn't pull any punches when the truth needed to be told. Of course her Source of Information was completely infallible and verifiable!

Peacefully,
My understanding of that quote is that those that participate in such practices are followers of him who is teaching them to love and make a lie. The only one I know who is the master teacher of them that love and make lies is Satan. So, if you are spreading malicious things that are true, you are still a follower of the enemy. That is just my understanding of the quote.

Not only was her source completely infallible and verifiable, but she made her statements to those involved and did not spend her time trying to convince others that the ones she had been called upon to rebuke were “hard hearted like Pharaoh”. She delivered her message and left the condition of a person’s heart in the Lord’s hands.

CB