A Viewer's Version, Another side of the story Options

[sonshineonme]

It's true that "By their fruits ye shall know them". I have read and reread your post and still believe that we here on earth have no business trying to judge if a person's heart is hardened or so set in his ways that he can't be helped.

If an axe murderer walks up to you and hits you in the back with an axe, would you believe he is an axe murderer even if you didn't see him kill someone else? How many people would he have to kill to reach the line of "hardened"? Even if someone is hardend, can he still repent? Of course he can, IF he is WILLING to do so. IF you have someone that is NOT willing, what then? Can you then say "he has a hardend heart'? What's wrong with aknowledging that someones character reflects a hardened heart? It is a fact that we were shown what that is by Pharoahs example (and some others too). Do we not get the right to also say that? Why is this not a "simple" way to look at it?

Have you ever sat on a jury? Have you ever had evidence put in front of you that is ugly but true? Do you just turn away and say "well, only God knows and I have no right to make a judgement".

Do not confuse someones behavior with this "don't judge" thing. These are seperate and should be realized what each is. God is the final judge in the hearts of man kind, but he certainly didn't say "and by the way, you can make no laws, and my 10 commandements really mean nothing either because you can't see the heart, so just go on your merry way and let me do all the thinking and punishment". God has gone to a lot of trouble to help us see RIGHT AND WRONG. Now lets not waste this education. When someone commits crimes, there should be accountability. When someone commits wrongs against another person (s), there tends to be an eventual consequences from society or the person it's done to.

and CB, while this may not be "back in the day" where things were black and white, keep in mind that type of thinking, which was extremely unhealthy, is what has led us to the gray areas we are in now - allowing for this and that....and sometimes, grace is actually in there now (thank goodness). My fear is that people can't handle thinking things through - they like to be told, black and white, makes it so simple. That is what complicates things - because if we would realize that God looks at us each INDIVIDUALLY, why can't we also do that? It is always good to understand situations as much as possible, because we can learn from them, just like knowing details of so many of those bible characters we read about - things were not black and white then, and they shouldn't be so now. When it comes to laws, they must be kept. If you break them, well, you pay the price. You seem to have mixed every thing together...."either you are converted or you're not". This is true. And we can't know if someone is or not, not really, but we sure can tell who looks more like the devils ways of doing things, and who looks more like Jesus. What would you call that? Don't you have a right to make a determination? I think so. It's called using commen sense and your brain. It's a nice combination when you have to make judgements about things. Be wise....as God has told us, now how can we do that if we don't assess and annalyze things that happen before us?

(please pardon my typos, I keep waiting for the spellcheck to come back she says oh so patiently )

This post has been edited by sonshineonme: Sep 8 2006, 01:48 PM

[Clay]

things have never been black and white.... only our perceptions of things...... God told Adam and Eve, you disobey, you die...... the moment they did disobey He said, well, hold on, because I love you, there is a way that you will still be able to one day live with me forever.... God introduced the gray the moment sin entered in..... and his mercy and grace continues to do so.....

[Panama_Pete]

Have you ever sat on a jury? Have you ever had evidence put in front of you that is ugly but true? Do you just turn away and say "Well, only God knows and I have no right to make a judgement".

Many of us have watched the person ahead of us on the highway weaving all over the road, and we make a judgment on observations, and then we act on those observations. Whether that intoxicated person comes to the Lord at a later date has nothing to do with whether we take the car keys away from an intoxicated person.

I would go so far as to say you have a moral obligation to confiscate the car keys from the intoxicated person in that situation, if you are in a position to do so. We all make judgment calls every day based on what we see in front of us.

We really don't have to go so far as to make a judgment about the person's relationship - or future relationship -- with the Lord. I think we're reading too much into "judging people by their fruits." All we have to see is that the person is capable of inflicting damage, or has done so in the past, and is likely to do it again. And sometimes, we decide this person should not be driving the school bus.

Metaphorically speaking, some people just think we need some new bus drivers here and there. Do we really need to re-write biblical doctrine before we grab the keys from a drunk?

[inga]

Dan (and I have evidence of this) will NOT change his ways. He apparently has not hit bottom enough to do so.

This brings me back to the question I asked earlier, "Who will minister to Danny?"

His "supporters" are actually supporting him on the way to hell. If any really cared for him, they would know that he has to be allowed to "hit bottom" so he is forced to look up (to God), instead of just pretending daily that God speaks to him and gives him specific directions in everything he does. (I say "pretending" because the God I know doesn't direct people to do the dishonest and mean things Danny did and does.)

[Reflection]

But praise God, I think I may have found something. This book appears to have the answers, and if it does and my kids see a difference in me, and I can have that peace that passes ALL understanding, then hey!!!!
Country

Country: Did I miss a post? What book are you referring to? Thanks!

[PeacefulBe]

What's wrong with aknowledging that someones character reflects a hardened heart?

You have the right to your opinions as do I. It is my opinion that only God truly knows the condition of a person's heart. It is my opinion that we can see evidences of their separation from God by their behavior.

As a fairly naive young woman far from home I struck up a deep friendship with a man serving in the Peace Corps. One weekend I went to his village and spent the entire weekend with him. I knew he was a worldly man but he felt like a dear big brother to me. I loved and respected him. We slept in the same bed (his was the only one with a mosquito net) and he never tried to be more than a good friend to me. When the mission doctor found I was not at home he came to find me and thought the worst. Soon, the whole compound believed that I was a fornicator when the only thing I was guilty of was poor judgement.

My point is God knew the true situation - those around me only thought they did.

[calvin]

I guess implying that all in the US are unconverted was a bit extreme. It’s just that I was raised in the church and have been around Adventist institutions most of my life and have yet to find a person that I can personally say makes me think of what Christ is like. Even the soft spoken, sweet talking ultra-conservatives have issues with no answers. You know I heard James Rafferty say something one day that struck me. He said that when people quote. “This gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world for a witness to all nations, and then shall the end come,” that people forget that the main emphasis of that text is witness. People want to see the gospel lived in the lives of God’s people.

And you may be wondering what it is I’m looking for. Its THE light in the eyes, THE joy in the heart, and THE peace that passes ALL understanding. I when I find it, or someone with it, I’m sure I’ll know it.

Country

That is interesting because I have met several people like that.... one in particular is T.Marshall Kelly, pastor and singer.... when you meet Elder Kelly its like the love of God washes over you in waves..... that man is not religious, he is spiritual, and after talking with him you get a sense of what relationship with God is really like...... there are others, but he stands out, and other people here on the forum may have met him and can vouch for what i am saying......

Clay I find it more than interesting but absolutely amazing that someone could grow up in the Adventist church into adulthood and can’t find anyone that exemplifies the character of Christ. I mean no one that you have seen the effect of the working of the Holy Spirit in their life. Mercy, what kind of people your been hanging around? The number is countless for me. Country, I need to introduce you to my mother, the most praying-est woman I know and my 99 year old grandmother they are always have a song in there heart and never pass up an opportunity to witness of the goodness of the Lord and more important they live the life everyday. Next my two brothers come to mind, knowing what rascals we where growing up, seeing them as God fearing men, local elders, changed men that could come from the power of the Holy Spirit and Bible study, and a prayer life. I have witnessed first hand working as a Bible worker in evangelistic campaigns folks lives changed, they throw off those bad habits of drugs, alcohol, smoking, they don’t think or talk like they used too, they become changed people again through the power of the Holy Spirit. I think of Sisters Rogers and Adkins in my Sabbath School class, these women really enjoy the whole worship experience, and studying the Bible, it is evident in there faces. Elder Kelly comes to mind too, but I can think of many other pastors as well.

In fact I am not the same Calvin I was 20 years ago.

[Daryl Fawcett]

Amen, Calvin!

[sonshineonme]

You have the right to your opinions as do I. It is my opinion that only God truly knows the condition of a person's heart. It is my opinion that we can see evidences of their separation from God by their behavior.

As a fairly naive young woman far from home I struck up a deep friendship with a man serving in the Peace Corps. One weekend I went to his village and spent the entire weekend with him. I knew he was a worldly man but he felt like a dear big brother to me. I loved and respected him. We slept in the same bed (his was the only one with a mosquito net) and he never tried to be more than a good friend to me. When the mission doctor found I was not at home he came to find me and thought the worst. Soon, the whole compound believed that I was a fornicator when the only thing I was guilty of was poor judgement.

My point is God knew the true situation - those around me only thought they did.

You are talking about someone making a judgement based on things that could be different. Like, speculation and heresay.
I am talking FACTS. Evidence. Testimony.
And I can tell you, whether you are doing the right thing or not, when you give the appearance of wrong doing, you place yourself in the position of being (fairly) judged. That's life. Now, if you have really did nothing wrong (such as your situation, and even "wrong" could even be redefinied as it may not be the right thing to even sleep in the same bed because it's usually not a good idea anyway) then you have nothing to worry about - who cares what people think, because you know. Well, if you are comparing yourself to Dan Shelton, we are talking apples and oranges. Things are not the same, and if you can't see that, then maybe someday, given more information???? you just might have to finally "see it". We can't ball all situations together. I feel like I am just repeating myself, maybe I am not saying it clearly, but you seem to resist evidence of testimony to help you know facts of a situation - and you seem to want to find a way NOT to believe something is so. Whatever comparison you have to make.
One other thing, just for the record, I have stories like your own - my own stories, and I have had to endure what people thought, and my endure took paying a price because of how people judged me by what they "thought" I was doing, when I knew clearly I was not doing what they thought....and the people were mean, did terrible things that affected my life very much. I can still say without any doubt, I knew that I was certainly not doing anything that I was accused or thought doing. Some things might have given the appearance of evil (to some, though they are the type to judge people as a rule) It's hard to say if I would do things differently because I did do it the first time of clear conscience - but I did not realize people would be so unchristian in their treatment. Now I know. And now I would be more careful because I know (have learned) how people can be....I would make better and more careful choices. Probably. Well, I don't know, I do sometimes feel that people should mind their own business, or ask me instead of judging ne...but we can't escape how people can behave, can we. And then there are people who really don't care, will find something about you, or cause problems either way....anyway, again, we are talking apples and oragnes when talking of an open, clear, witnessed situations regarding DS. I am not stupid, I can use my head, and I CAN judge someone by their ways of living their life. They put it out there, live it, it's my right to call it as it is, and as it is seen. Don't you see the difference?

QUOTE(country bumpkin @ Sep 7 2006, 11:30 PM)

I guess implying that all in the US are unconverted was a bit extreme. It’s just that I was raised in the church and have been around Adventist institutions most of my life and have yet to find a person that I can personally say makes me think of what Christ is like. Even the soft spoken, sweet talking ultra-conservatives have issues with no answers. You know I heard James Rafferty say something one day that struck me. He said that when people quote. “This gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world for a witness to all nations, and then shall the end come,” that people forget that the main emphasis of that text is witness. People want to see the gospel lived in the lives of God’s people.

And you may be wondering what it is I’m looking for. Its THE light in the eyes, THE joy in the heart, and THE peace that passes ALL understanding. I when I find it, or someone with it, I’m sure I’ll know it.

Country

Clay I find it more than interesting but absolutely amazing that someone could grow up in the Adventist church into adulthood and can’t find anyone that exemplifies the character of Christ. I mean no one that you have seen the effect of the working of the Holy Spirit in their life. Mercy, what kind of people your been hanging around? The number is countless for me. Country, I need to introduce you to my mother, the most praying-est woman I know and my 99 year old grandmother they are always have a song in there heart and never pass up an opportunity to witness of the goodness of the Lord and more important they live the life everyday. Next my two brothers come to mind, knowing what rascals we where growing up, seeing them as God fearing men, local elders, changed men that could come from the power of the Holy Spirit and Bible study, and a prayer life. I have witnessed first hand working as a Bible worker in evangelistic campaigns folks lives changed, they throw off those bad habits of drugs, alcohol, smoking, they don’t think or talk like they used too, they become changed people again through the power of the Holy Spirit. I think of Sisters Rogers and Adkins in my Sabbath School class, these women really enjoy the whole worship experience, and studying the Bible, it is evident in there faces. Elder Kelly comes to mind too, but I can think of many other pastors as well.

In fact I am not the same Calvin I was 20 years ago.

Amen Clay and Steve, and I feel bad for you CB. Makes me wonder what kind of standard you really expect from people - the Jesus you say you know....whatever you are complaring for the sake of comparing. Jesus was sinless, we are not, do you allow for this? What kind of legalism were you raised with? Sounds like you do an awful lot of judging about those around you, who ever you are around.....do you allow grace, growth and any allowance for sinful natures? Seems to me that if you are worried about us judging DS, you seem to be doing some of this yourself, IDN, JMO I guess.

This post has been edited by sonshineonme: Sep 8 2006, 08:35 PM

[PeacefulBe]

You are talking about someone making a judgement based on things that could be different. Like, speculation and heresay.
I am talking FACTS. Evidence. Testimony.
And I can tell you, whether you are doing the right thing or not, when you give the appearance of wrong doing, you place yourself in the position of being (fairly) judged. That's life. I am not stupid, I can use my head, and I CAN judge someone by their ways of living their life. They put it out there, live it, it's my right to call it as it is, and as it is seen. Don't you see the difference?

Those folks who judged me saw the facts:
1. I had spent the weekend alone with a person of the opposite sex
2. The man had a reputation for being promiscuous (a fact I was not privy to, tho I was later to find out that most Peace Corps of the era were doing the same thing)
3. Therefore, I must be having sex with the man.

Although I stated my innocence and agreed that the appearance of evil was bad they were still convinced I had been carnal with the fellow, banned him from the mission compound and eventually even tested me for STDs.

I know there are facts out there that have been seen by many as well as all of the testimony of those who have worked or are still working in the situation. And, once again, you are free to have your own opinions and make whatever judgements you feel are valid.

As for me, I can judge the situation as I see it but I cannot judge if the man's heart is hardened and I don't believe anyone apart from God Himself is privvy to that condition. That's my opinion.

[inga]

And you may be wondering what it is I’m looking for. Its THE light in the eyes, THE joy in the heart, and THE peace that passes ALL understanding. I when I find it, or someone with it, I’m sure I’ll know it.

Country
Amen Clay and Steve, and I feel bad for you CB. Makes me wonder what kind of standard you really expect from people - the Jesus you say you know....whatever you are complaring for the sake of comparing. Jesus was sinless, we are not, do you allow for this? What kind of legalism were you raised with? Sounds like you do an awful lot of judging about those around you, who ever you are around.....do you allow grace, growth and any allowance for sinful natures? Seems to me that if you are worried about us judging DS, you seem to be doing some of this yourself, IDN, JMO I guess.

Sonshineonme, you may have something there. It's called "projecting" - projecting one's own behavior (in this case harsh judging) on others.

I, too, was startled when CB said she had never met anyone who demonstrated the work of the Holy Spirit in their lives -- no one with the light in their eyes, the joy in their hearts and the peace only God can give. I find that difficult to comprehend unless CB is looking for something that's not possible to find on this earth ...

[sonshineonme]

Those folks who judged me saw the facts:
1. I had spent the weekend alone with a person of the opposite sex
2. The man had a reputation for being promiscuous (a fact I was not privy to, tho I was later to find out that most Peace Corps of the era were doing the same thing)
3. Therefore, I must be having sex with the man.

Although I stated my innocence and agreed that the appearance of evil was bad they were still convinced I had been carnal with the fellow, banned him from the mission compound and eventually even tested me for STDs.

I know there are facts out there that have been seen by many as well as all of the testimony of those who have worked or are still working in the situation. And, once again, you are free to have your own opinions and make whatever judgements you feel are valid.

As for me, I can judge the situation as I see it but I cannot judge if the man's heart is hardened and I don't believe anyone apart from God Himself is privvy to that condition. That's my opinion.

You were treated harshly, and unfortunately, this happends often when it shouldn't. I've been there, I understand. But maybe they didn't know you well enough to beleive you? Or maybe they just follow the rules no matter what - and what's wrose, trying being in a christian envioronment where you would expect people to treat you with a christian attitude and they do just the oppisite for various reasons.

I can still tell you that when a man/women RESISTS repentance (repeatedly) that is a sign of a hardend heart. That is a fact you can not get around. And you are certainly entitled to your opinion, as am I. I have much reason to feel valid in my opinion as well. Luckily, those people are few and far between, and some are quite obvious, while others, well, it eventually shows through by cause and affect.

[beartrap]

Sometimes as one looks outward, they need to look inward. At the same time Danny was accusing Linda of spending hours of time on the phone with Dr. Abrahamsen, he was spending many hours late at night with Brenda Walsh... alone with her. I, and many others, saw his red Dodge truck, and tan Suburban SUV at the church building with her Mercedes car, many times as late as early in the AM. Was he having spiritual or physical adultery with her? God knows, but he was physically with her for all those hours, and he accuses Linda of adultery for speakng on the phone.

As the accusations are hurtled at Linda stating that phone card records show she spoke on the phone with Dr. Abrahamsen, how about requesting Danny's Verizon mobile phone records for 618-218-**** showing how many hours he spent on the phone with Brenda's 865-776-**** mobile phone during that very same period of time. Seems that what applies to the goose should apply to the gander, shouldn't it?

This post has been edited by beartrap: Sep 9 2006, 11:27 AM

[lurker]

And that tells us about the situation in her marriage what Linda may have been asking a counselor for help about. She had said at the beginning that the situation involved high profile people at 3ABN and that is why she felt she couldn't counsel with anyone there and had to talk to someone "safe".

[fallible humanbe...]

As the accusations are hurtled at Linda stating that phone card records show she spoke on the phone with Dr. Abrahamsen, how about requesting Danny's Verizon mobile phone records for 618-218-**** showing how many hours he spent on the phone with Brenda's 865-776-**** mobile phone during that very same period of time. Seems that what applies to the goose should apply to the gander, shouldn't it?

Don't you think putting phone numbers out there is rather unethical? Yes, you did leave off the last two digits - but you drastically reduced the permutation so that someone who has a little time might work it out. Seems like, while not stepping over the line, you have your toes firmly on the other side.

- fhb

This post has been edited by Clay: Sep 9 2006, 03:23 PM