A Viewer's Version, Another side of the story Options

[inga]

If you come in to participate, and then start posting away at the most controversial topic of the moment, don't complain that you are a newbie and didn't know when your comments are dissected, scrutized, and questioned..... as they use to tell me....

Steve, I'm afraid you missed the point completely.

My point, which was similar to Reflection's, though not as detailed, is that the personal attacks (as detailed by Reflection) were inappropriate, to put it mildly.

Give and take in a debate is one thing, but ad hominem remarks such as the ridicule directed at CB are recognized as rude in any other environment. I find it quite astonishing that some folks on this board cannot recognize meanness even when it is pointed out to them. (Is this the fruit of being Spirit-led?)

By contrast I appreciate Ralph's appropriate response. We all make errors in judgment, and he gave some background for his. Then he apologized -- something that would be an appropriate response for several others as well.

[simplysaved]

Reflection!

First, I am definitely a woman...and not a man... you can simply look at the avitar next to the post and see that.

Second, if you have been reading for about two weeks, you must have noticed that I rarely post in in 3ABN.....sometimes I read, but rarely post. When I responded, I liked Country Bumpkin's sense of humor in how s/he said what s/he said in the posts. I apologize to you both if that came off as condescending or rude. I happen to agree that the perspectives presented only tell one side of the story...but that is another issue altogether for another thread....

I agree that as Christians, it is important that we tread carefully as to how we say what we say.

Hi Calvin: Before I respond, I feel I need to introduce myself since I just registered and this is my first post. I only recently learned of BSDA through a copy of a letter my pastor husband received from the Norwegian doctor at our church. Our church airs 3ABN in our community, a fact that is a great concern to us right now. I was actually thankful to get this information. It has been bothering me since I first read the 3ABN public letter about Linda, and the doctor's letter confirmed my suspicions. Just gut/intuition from life experience. Anyway, I just felt the need to jump in here because I've been reading posts here for about 2 or 3 weeks and kind of got the gist of how people respond to each other. You are a bunch of friends and joke with each other, get sarcastic, jab at each other, etc. The reason it doesn't bother you is because you have already established a relationship. This poor new person had no idea.

You guys laughed at a newbie

you jabbed a newbie


hammered at a newbie

Since this is supposed to be a Christian group, I just wanted to remind the members of a few things, and maybe highlight some things you may not recognize because of your familiarity. You know, it is almost like she walked into your living room and no one smiled at her. The first thing you did was laugh at her (besides a couple of you called her a he):

Simplysaved
thank you for making me laugh this morning....this really brought a much needed smile to my face. I like your style! (THERE WERE QUITE A FEW LITTLE EMOTICONS MAKING LAUGHTER EVIDENT.)

Yes, simplysaved says "I like your style" but I am not really sure if he is making fun or not. I can't see his face and I don't know simplysaved at all. Neither does countrybumpkin.

This one implies that countrybumpkin is trying to pull one over on you. (I am not gullible.) This could have been considered the same as calling her a liar:
CLAY:
country bumpkin? must be related to Danny..... this story would have us believe that Danny is clueless and Linda was mad because she was getting old and Danny was making insensitive remarks about their relationship....... alrighty then... I may be tired but I am not gulliable......
Observer:
Bumpkin, you said: "You can not betray someone unless you know something they do not want told."

Betrayal often comes in the telling of a falsehood, that is probably more common than in telling the truth.

Bumpkin, your missive is simply speculation, with neither knowledge nor reason.

Yes, the first part is just a response, but "with neither knowledge nor reason" could be construed as an insult without eye contact, body language or relationship.

Princess Di:
.....and I have five bridges to sell you. One of them is very famous!

I did not find anything else that could be construed as offensive in this post, but to start off like that with someone you do not know might be misunderstood. Again without eye contact, body language, or relationship (history together), one cannot be clear on whether or not one is being made fun of.

Denny
These are The Days of our Lives........
Now, this one does have body language. Just look at those two girls! They always give me the feeling that whoever it is they are looking at are being made fun of! And maybe that they don't care at all/kind of indifferent. And that comment coming after a couple others must be making the recipient feel like she is being made fun of. It's just cummulative after a while, kind of a group atmosphere.

Now, if she decided to come back to see if maybe she was being paranoid, she might have seen this:
(personal name calling perhaps?)
Ralph:
hmmmm, I wonder who will give him his next pay chequue.

Just to make sure that he was describing himself correctly, I checked the dictionary.

bumpkin -- not very intelligent or interested in culture

Or this sarcastic take on it all:
CLAY:
have a nice life..... thanks for sharing your ummmm view of things.... and no I am not sorry that some were skeptical.... as for the other.... you have not seen hate.... if your story can't stand a little closer examination, perhaps you might keep it to yourself.....

Now, who knows this person? Do you all pray before you speak? Do you pray before you post? Good questions to ask yourselves.

Sorry to come on here hammering people. But it just bugged me to see Christians treating someone like this. What someone thinks is not the important thing. The important thing is to represent Christ in all our interactions and to minister to each other. If we need a swift kick, then a friend should give one. Before you jab and joke with someone, make sure you first make them feel safe-- communicate your personal regard for other. That takes time. Take the time. I recently took a computer course and was made aware of computer addiction. Maybe some of you... well, I'll wait until we establish a relationship first before...

Thanks for listening!

Good emoticons for newbies:

This post has been edited by simplysaved: Sep 2 2006, 11:56 PM

[calvin]

Steve, I'm afraid you missed the point completely.

My point, which was similar to Reflection's, though not as detailed, is that the personal attacks (as detailed by Reflection) were inappropriate, to put it mildly.

Give and take in a debate is one thing, but ad hominem remarks such as the ridicule directed at CB are recognized as rude in any other environment. I find it quite astonishing that some folks on this board cannot recognize meanness even when it is pointed out to them. (Is this the fruit of being Spirit-led?)

By contrast I appreciate Ralph's appropriate response. We all make errors in judgment, and he gave some background for his. Then he apologized -- something that would be an appropriate response for several others as well.

Inga, this is not SDAnet where I believe you where or are one of the moderators. Me and the other administrators/moderators set the tone as to what we think is appropriate. Take it or leave it.

[Panama_Pete]

Clay, thanks for your information. I am a little surprised at this, though. I brought it up because folks were refering to the allegations in several of the topics - quoting from the televangelist, etc. Guess they didn't know it was off limits either.

Greetings to PeacefullyBewildered,

An agreement was reached between the folks here midstream. While it is true, some people already had their feet wet, others were encouraged not to jump in on those topics Clay mentioned.

Also, the Televangelist was previously written elsewhere and then exported to this site and it remains to be seen whether the author(s) are present on this board, or not.

So, don't think for one second that you are being ignored or forgotten. Your presence here is very much appreciated.

Other seasoned posters may be on their end-of-summer vacations right now and away from their keyboards, but they will be back.

Pete.

[Clay]

Steve, I'm afraid you missed the point completely.

My point, which was similar to Reflection's, though not as detailed, is that the personal attacks (as detailed by Reflection) were inappropriate, to put it mildly.

Give and take in a debate is one thing, but ad hominem remarks such as the ridicule directed at CB are recognized as rude in any other environment. I find it quite astonishing that some folks on this board cannot recognize meanness even when it is pointed out to them. (Is this the fruit of being Spirit-led?)

By contrast I appreciate Ralph's appropriate response. We all make errors in judgment, and he gave some background for his. Then he apologized -- something that would be an appropriate response for several others as well.

nope didn't miss the point at all... I didn't think it was mean, and to me the experience of Country Bumpkin is like that of a person going to the swimming pool.... if as soon as you get there you decide you are big enough to jump into the deep end where the water is over your head, then you gotta deal with the consequences of that decision.....or find a way back to the wading pool.....

You say it was mean, I disagree.... and your question, "Is this the fruit of being Spirit-led?" does not change my opinion.....

I also disagree that she was personally attacked...and let me add, that had we been at a potluck dinner and CB walked up and shared her take on this issue, my response would have been the same....

Sorry just not feelin you on this one Inga.....

[PeacefulBe]

Greetings to PeacefullyBewildered,

An agreement was reached between the folks here midstream. While it is true, some people already had their feet wet, others were encouraged not to jump in on those topics Clay mentioned.

Also, the Televangelist was previously written elsewhere and then exported to this site and it remains to be seen whether the author(s) are present on this board, or not.

So, don't think for one second that you are being ignored or forgotten. Your presence here is very much appreciated.

Other seasoned posters may be on their end-of-summer vacations right now and away from their keyboards, but they will be back.

Pete.

I appreciate your welcome and the further illumination on this subject.

[no_cults]

you have not received any answers about that issue because that issue is off limits for the time being.... the discussion has been limited to the divorce and the management style.... we will not be dealing with allegations of molestation or alleged murder....

I too am curious about this, but wholeheartedly agree with you. (Clay)
If anyone has real allegations about molestation of minors, they
should contact the proper authorities with their proof.

[Reflection]

Reflection!

First, I am definitely a woman...and not a man... you can simply look at the avitar next to the post and see that.

I'm so sorry!

nope didn't miss the point at all... I didn't think it was mean, and to me the experience of Country Bumpkin is like that of a person going to the swimming pool.... if as soon as you get there you decide you are big enough to jump into the deep end where the water is over your head, then you gotta deal with the consequences of that decision.....or find a way back to the wading pool.....

Yup, just let the poor fool drown, right? Absolutely no-one should jump in and help. Lifeguards are only for swimmers...

Calvin, you have a way with words.
VERY well said !!!

(In my opinion, you were very kind and generous to Reflection.)

You guys are great. And funny.

There's a little history that may explain why the rash treatment of this newbie. On Club Adventist, there was a false persona, Margaret Gray, who wrote things to keep the pot boiling. I questioned whether Country Bumpkin was genuine. I felt that she knew too much to merely be a listener to the broadcast, and Daryl Fawcett apparently felt the same, for he wrote:

I was mistaken in my assumption that we were dealing with another "Margaret Gray', so my apologies to Country Bumpkin. forgive.
By the way, Reflection,

Ralph: Thanks for the explanation and response! Considering I came in here with my boxing gloves on, I really appreciate the welcome!

[Expression]

Personally, I agree with Clay 100%. When you get into a controversial subject there will be controversy. We can argue for hours as to whether or not what was posted was “kind,” “caring,” or “Spirit-led.” But in the end where will it get us? This is what a forum is like. We express what we think and we share how we feel.

What has made BSDA what it is, is the fact that everyone can share their opinions. This encourages thought and has created ripples throughout our church. If we loose this honesty and openness with one another we will have lost much. I hope that our discussion from this point on about the 3ABN situation will not be “watered-down” as a result of this.

May we keep our focus.

[simplysaved]

No problem....It's all ...we are more than "COOL"!!!

I'm so sorry!
Yup, just let the poor fool drown, right? Absolutely no-one should jump in and help. Lifeguards are only for swimmers...
You guys are great. And funny.
Ralph: Thanks for the explanation and response! Considering I came in here with my boxing gloves on, I really appreciate the welcome!

[Clay]

Yup, just let the poor fool drown, right? Absolutely no-one should jump in and help. Lifeguards are only for swimmers...
You guys are great. And funny.
Ralph: Thanks for the explanation and response! Considering I came in here with my boxing gloves on, I really appreciate the welcome!

I am not a lifeguard.... my wife who was one tells me that sometimes a drowning person instead of cooperating with a rescue often fights with the rescuer and may cause both to drown..... she said sometimes its easier to save a person who has passed out, cause there won't be that issue.... or I guess you can always throw out a life saver....

[Reflection]

Hi Reflection. I am also a new member here - searching for answers and truth about the situation at 3abn. I have asked several questions in this pursuit but have not had any answers in response from the more seasoned members. I don't know if my questions were just overlooked or avoided but that is what has been happening to me....

From some of the group I hear that they want 3abn to continue its huge ministry to the world with a new leadership in place. Others seem to want it shut down. I see that you and your church are concerned that 3abn is airing in your community. What are your concerns?...

I have personally received many blessing from some of the programming I have watched on 3abn.

Hi PeacefullyBewildered. Thanks for the response! Our concerns have to do with the unknown really. If these allegations are true, this promises to be a very big scandal. What will the media do with it? Will 3ABN be squashed? So, since 3ABN in a sense is the face of Adventism, should we be intertwined with them at all? On the other hand if these are untrue allegations, then who wants to be a part of the rumor mill that destroys an innocent entity that is doing a good work? Yet if it is true, our little church that has so much potential to reach our community could lose its sphere of influence.

I have a strong gut impression these are probably true. See, when I first saw the public letter about Linda from 3ABN, red flags and alarm bells were ringing and flying all over the place. First, if it was true, a Christian in a prominent position would not feel the need to write such a letter. Second, insinuations were rampant in the letter. This is like telling the truth with your mouth while your eyes and gestures clearly tell the opponent you don't believe what you are saying (like rolling your eyes ) . This can be a somewhat subtle form of deception. I remember telling my husband (just from intuition and life experience), "watch, before the dust clears, Danny will be married. I bet you anything he's the one having the affair." Mind you, this was only spoken in private between us. At the time I hoped that no one in our church or community had caught wind of this. Before reading the Norwegian doctor's letter, I felt that that 3ABN letter (and later the new spiritual adultery clause) served to incriminate 3ABN quite concisely. A Christian fights for his/her marriage. And love covers a multitude of sins.

So, this whole thing is unfortunate, but looks like we will all need to deal with it. Some of the challenges I see regarding this:
1. SDA church losing influence and a barrier between us and those Christ wants to reach.
2. Danny being turned into the bigger-than-life Disney villain by SDAs, and Linda being turned into a goddess. As a result, lack of well-composed prayers for both, lack of balanced interaction with both.
3. The possibility that whole churches will be split over this issue.
I also see many good outcomes once this is resolved. Cleansing is always a good thing. For one thing, and I think I'll stop here or I may end up writing a book: Many church members may have felt that 3ABN was taking care of the Great Commission. Perhaps this mentality has kept many from developing witnessing skills as they felt opening their purses was fulfilling their responsibilities.

Most important action for those of us on the sidelines: Prayer for all involved. Try not to demonize or deify, though have eyes wide open for the truth. Hope for true repentance. Pray God picks up the pieces (even though we know He will).

Yes, I believe there's a place for television and radio ministry. I am one who came into the church through It Is Written and study, ONLY. No personal contact was needed to convince me. But, there is no replacement for the ministry of individuals. That--individual ministry--is what should be elevated to MOST IMPORTANT MINISTRY. Anyway, where's the step off this soap box....

[Jvat]

Reflection, I appreciate your post.

[inga]

Inga, this is not SDAnet where I believe you where or are one of the moderators. Me and the other administrators/moderators set the tone as to what we think is appropriate. Take it or leave it.

Whew, Calvin, thanks for the appreciative response!

I've developed a pretty tough skin myself & can take a lot (and you have no idea what goes on at SDAnet behind the scenes!). I wasn't complaining for myself. I did, however, see a new member being subjected to some pretty rough treatment for no good reason. (Others who posted in defense of Danny recently asked for the way they were treated because they came on as being pretty rough themselves.)

My remarks were intended to provide a bit of a reality check Even on non-Christian boards a distinction is made between argumentation -- which may be quite vigorous -- and ad hominem remarks (put-downs of the person). The latter are technically classified as logical fallacies (invalid arguments) at best and recognized as rudeness or flames by regular posters. This is not allowed on most reputable boards.

Early in the posting history of the 3ABN section you indicated that you realized only one side was being represented, and you seemed eager to have both sides represented. However, the way "country bumpkin" was treated ensures that that side of the matter won't get much exposure here, except by the most thick-skinned folks who may be thick-skinned in more ways than one and maybe not the best "witnesses." Most folks don't willingly subject themselves to such treatment.

But, as you pointed out, it is your call regarding what tone you want to have on this board. If you want to allow flaming of newbies, that's your business. If you want to prevent viewers from posting how they see the issues, that's your business. If you think that ridicule of new posters is an appropriate Christian response, it's your call. But I had thought better of you ...

The way I see it, those who ridiculed "countrybumpkin" weren't trying to be mean to an innocent newbie. They were probably set up for that kind of response by several earlier posters who came on here with both guns blazing, and they failed to recognize that this poster was different. And that makes me think that it would probably be a good idea to be courteous even to those who are discourteous. Would that be so bad for BSDA?

And, of course, I realize I'm here by your good graces and you can shut off my access any time it pleases you. So, if it pleases you to deny my access to this board now, I want to thank you for my time here. I've learned to appreciate the folks here -- even when I don't agree with them. (I also find it interesting to observe the postings of folks I know from other venues by their real identity.) And the fact that you seem to have the most open SDA posting environment on the net has made this a valuable clearinghouse. However, I don't think that treating newcomers a little more kindly would take away from what BSDA has to offer. In fact, I rather think it would add to its attraction. And you would surely get a more balanced picture that way.

Blessings,
Inga Anderson

This post has been edited by inga: Sep 3 2006, 02:43 PM

[Clay]

Whew, Calvin, thanks for the appreciative response!

I've developed a pretty tough skin myself & can take a lot (and you have no idea what goes on at SDAnet behind the scenes!). I wasn't complaining for myself. I did, however, see a new member being subjected to some pretty rough treatment for no good reason. (Others who posted in defense of Danny recently asked for the way they were treated because they came on as being pretty rough themselves.)

My remarks were intended to provide a bit of a reality check Even on non-Christian boards a distinction is make between argumentation -- which may be quite vigorous -- and ad hominem remarks (put-downs of the person). The latter are technically classified as logical fallacies (invalid arguments) at best and recognized as rudeness or flames by regular posters. This is not allowed on most reputable boards.

Early in the posting history of the 3ABN section you indicated that you realized only one side was being represented, and you seemed eager to have both sides represented. However, the way "country bumpkin" was treated ensures that that side of the matter won't get much exposure here, except by the most thick-skinned folks who may be thick-skinned in more ways than one and maybe not the best "witnesses." Most folks don't willingly subject themselves to such treatment.

But, as you pointed out, it is your call regarding what tone you want to have on this board. If you want to allow flaming of newbies, that's your business. If you want to prevent viewers from posting how they see the issues, that's your business. If you think that ridicule of new posters is an appropriate Christian response, it's your call. But I had thought better of you ...

The way I see it, those who ridiculed "countrybumpkin" weren't trying to be mean to an innocent newbie. They were probably set up for that kind of response by several earlier posters who came on here with both guns blazing, and they failed to recognize that this poster was different. And that makes me think that it would probably be a good idea to be courteous even to those who are discourteous. Would that be so bad for BlackSDA?

And, of course, I realize I'm here by your good graces and you can shut off my access any time it pleases you. So, if it pleases you to deny my access to this board now, I want to thank you for my time here. I've learned to appreciate the folks here -- even when I don't agree with them. (I also find it interesting to observe the postings of folks I know from other venues by their real identity.) And the fact that you seem to have the most open SDA posting environment on the net has made this a valuable clearinghouse. However, I don't think that treating newcomers a little more kindly would take away from what BlackSDA has to offer. In fact, I rather think it would add to its attraction. And you would surely get a more balanced picture that way.

Blessings,
Inga Anderson

Inga,
points taken.... unless you have violated some forum rule there is no reason to ban you.... I will do my best to see to it that newbies are not flamed their first time out..... (even though I don't think CB was flamed..... singed a little, but not flamed)