The True Version Of 3abn Options

[GrammieTana]

QUOTE(Clay @ Mar 20 2007, 09:11 AM)

saw the video.... why is it disturbing? Are we assuming that God interacts with all of us in the same exact way? God saves us individually..... not corporately......

you see it that way.... I would say that the church cannot define either salvation or what the standard is..... biblical gospel tells me that the Holy Spirit will lead and guide me into all truth and into relationship with The Creator.... thus I see where you are coming from but I would not label the video spiritualism....

Thank you Clay. I just saw the video and see it very similarly to you. In addition:

We each have a personal insight to God that no one else can or should have. I believe that God judges us all in the venue in which we find ourselves. True, what they did was absolutely wrong and very hurtful to their spouses and children. But what are they to do now? To divorce would not be either right nor necessary in God's sight. Just because we cannot see their pain which was spoken of in the video and their clear recognition of the pain that they caused their former spouses and families, does not give us the right to say that they must keep out of sight forever. Nor do we have a right to say that they cannot use their unique talents for the reaching of new people for God. We do not have a right to say that their ministry is against God just because we don't hear the same 'thou shalt not's' and 'you must do's' that we grew up with. (I contend that our church has been unbiblically 'controlling' of the lives of its members from the beginning. Remember, Jesus put a ring on the boy when he brought him home; the coin was from a dowry set that the women wore to be 'dressed up'; and the pearl of great price was not something sitting on a shelf! Yeah, I hear you about the spiritual application, but these were examples taken from the daily life of those who were in his hearing! ) I did not, in any sense, hear Greg and Shasta blaming anybody else for their situation as was mentioned by someone earlier in this thread.

There is a place for their ministry as far as I can see, because there are many who have been disenfranchised by the formal religious institutions of the day including and perhaps especially by the SDA church. But most of us have not walked in their shoes, have not felt the condemnation that they have felt, even from themselves, nor have most of us understood the forgiveness of God which I believe they have been freely given. Most of the time, I hear or see nothing but condemnation and the idea that these people must be continuously judged by what they have been forgiven for, not what they are doing in the present. We don't have the right to withhold forgiveness from those whom God has forgiven; and we don't know exactly who that is, unless we look in the mirror!

Well, it's time to get down from my soapbox now.

Bye, JT

[Pickle]

We do not have a right to say that their ministry is against God just because we don't hear the same 'thou shalt not's' and 'you must do's' that we grew up with. (I contend that our church has been unbiblically 'controlling' of the lives of its members from the beginning. Remember, Jesus put a ring on the boy when he brought him home; the coin was from a dowry set that the women wore to be 'dressed up'; and the pearl of great price was not something sitting on a shelf!

Two thoughts:

1) What I recall, and it's been awhile since I've seen the thing, is that there are no Thou shalt not's and You must do's. And it is unbiblical when we deny that there are or ought to be, or declare that the only ones should be the ones I decide upon.

Both Saul of Tarsus and Cornelius asked what God wanted them to do, and both were told to listen to another human being tell them what they were supposed to do. It's a balance. We each must decide for ourselves what is truth, and yet we must listen to others as well. Truth must be based on the Word of God.

2) If we blame such standards on the church trying to be controlling, then to be fair we ought to acknowledge that Charles Finney, Charles Spurgeon, and John Welsey were just as controlling.

But really, we need to blame such standards on God, for as Oscar Lane pointed out back in 1984 in New Orleans, after God listed all the adornments of the daughters in Jerusalem in Is. 3:18-23, He called it all "filth" in Is. 4:4, and said in that same verse that if we don't take it off, He's going to burn it off. That point of Oscar Lane has stuck in my mind all these years.

On any given Bible topic there are verses that don't seem to fit. But personally, on this one, I think Spurgeon, Finney, and Wesley were correct, and they weren't Adventists.

This post has been edited by Pickle: Mar 20 2007, 02:07 PM

[sister]

FACT. Officially, Danny & Kenny were the founder and cofounder. Danny was the president, Kenny was the vice president. At the time of the "well known" dream, Danny& Linda weren't married yet.

FACT. Kenny was not dismissed for any such reason. They were personal differences between Kenny & Danny while they were under the very stressful situation of getting 3abn off of the ground. Does it seem Linda perpetuated and enhanced those differences between brothers? Yes it certainly does. That speaks for itself in the very fact that Linda took Kenny's place as Vice President when her previous position had been a secretary and the writer of the first small newsletter.

Now, I have addressed just a few of sister's fallicies or fantasies or whatever you want to call them and have given the true story.

Let's get back to the original topic. Perhaps the topic of Greg Nelson and his ministry belongs in another area or a thread of it's own.

Have you given the true story, Bystander? A story, YES! True, NO!

Is there any documentation that states Kenny Shelton was ever a co-founder of 3ABN? NO! Kenny was the Vice-President of 3ABN, but he was never called the co-founder of 3ABN. Co-founder was the title that was given to Linda Shelton, before she was ousted from the ministry she co-founded with Danny Shelton. Prior to being fired from the ministry Linda was always listed as the co-founder of the Ministry. In the book written by Bob Ellis, "A Channel of Blessing", which was authorized by Danny Shelton, Linda is referred to as the co-founder of 3ABN. Ten days after his vision to build 3ABN, Dan and Linda were married. Together, as a married couple, they founded 3ABN. Now with Linda removed from 3ABN, Dan alone is referred to as founder of 3ABN in all their literature. No mention is ever made of Kenny.

When 3ABN began, Danny was president, his brother Kenny was Vice-President, Kenny's wife Emma Lou was in charge of the accounts and Linda was the secretary and answered all the mail---later she would write a newsletter.

Soon Danny became angry with the way his older brother was spending money without checking with him. Since Kenny's wife was in charge of the accounts, Kenny would go directly to her and have her cut a check for his purchases, rather than checking with Danny first. Kenny was very prideful and as the older brother, he did not feel that it was necessary to always get Danny's approval and made his own judgements concerning expenditure. In time he began to usurp Danny's authority more and more, finally to the point where Danny took his complaints to the 3ABN Board. Kenny's unwillingness to recognize the authority of his younger brother over him as President and co-founder of 3ABN with his wife, Linda, finally resulted in his firing from 3ABN. Their mother and sister sided with Kenny and quit their involvement with 3ABN at the same time.

It was not until well over a year later when the Board appointed Linda Shelton to the position of vice-president of 3ABN.

And Kenny's moral character? I believe that stone has already been turned over and layed to rest as requested.

Sister

This post has been edited by sister: Mar 20 2007, 07:50 PM

[gracetoyou]

But really, we need to blame such standards on God, for as Oscar Lane pointed out back in 1984 in New Orleans, after God listed all the adornments of the daughters in Jerusalem in Is. 3:18-23, He called it all "filth" in Is. 4:4, and said in that same verse that if we don't take it off, He's going to burn it off. That point of Oscar Lane has stuck in my mind all these years.

Isaiah 3:18-23 NKJV mentions scarves, veils, perfume boxes, mantles, outer garments, purses, mirrors, fine linen, turbans and robes. These are "filth"? Do you think men's ties would qualify as "filth"? And exactly why do men shave their beards? So they can look like the "world"? To get in touch with their feminine side?

I'm not defending jewelry, but it is strange that many Adventists look with disdain on a woman wearing a ring or necklace while the rich businessman/doctor living in a mansion and driving an expensive car is made head elder.

[Snoopy]

Isaiah 3:18-23 NKJV mentions scarves, veils, perfume boxes, mantles, outer garments, purses, mirrors, fine linen, turbans and robes. These are "filth"? Do you think men's ties would qualify as "filth"? And exactly why do men shave their beards? So they can look like the "world"? To get in touch with their feminine side?

I'm not defending jewelry, but it is strange that many Adventists look with disdain on a woman wearing a ring or necklace while the rich businessman/doctor living in a mansion and driving an expensive car is made head elder.

Oh, thank GOD!!! I thought I was the only one who thinks like that. I've never quite been able to figure out that adornment thing...and I have often wondered about it in the context of mens' ties!! And also, women who wear belts...oh, and pins are OK I guess...! My academy experience was so filled with that kind of stuff that I got turned off of SDAism at a young age. Seemed they were more worried about make-up and jewelry than they were with my walk with Jesus... And yet, as you say, mansions and expensive cars are not specifically called out in the Bible!! Even back to the adornment thing...imagine two women who are dressing for SDA church...one spent $500 on the dress alone not to mention the matching shoes, purse and other "acceptable" accessories...and the other shows up in a simple JCPenneys (please, no offense to anyone who shops at JCP...I have shopped there many a time...) outfit with a string of fake pearls and...oh my...can you imagine...??? Ughhhh... I have struggled with that for YEARS!! Thank you SO much, gracetoyou, for sharing your perspective and helping me see that its not just me...!!!






OK that I was but I feel better. Thank you for listening.

This post has been edited by Snoopy: Mar 20 2007, 10:20 PM

[Noahswife]

Oh, thank GOD!!! I thought I was the only one who thinks like that. I've never quite been able to figure out that adornment thing...and I have often wondered about it in the context of mens' ties!! And also, women who wear belts...oh, and pins are OK I guess...! My academy experience was so filled with that kind of stuff that I got turned off of SDAism at a young age. Seemed they were more worried about make-up and jewelry than they were with my walk with Jesus... And yet, as you say, mansions and expensive cars are not specifically called out in the Bible!! Even back to the adornment thing...imagine two women who are dressing for SDA church...one spent $500 on the dress alone not to mention the matching shoes, purse and other "acceptable" accessories...and the other shows up in a simple JCPenneys outfit with a string of fake pearls and...oh my...can you imagine...??? Ughhhh... I have struggled with that for YEARS!! Thank you SO much, gracetoyou, for sharing your perspective and helping me see that its not just me...!!!

OK that I was but I feel better. Thank you for listening.

I was also glad to see both of you respond in writing the same way I did emotionally to the post. Snoopy your experience is very similar to my own. I have also experienced watching SDA women treat employees of mine (who were dressed very tastefully) in a manner that was horribly condescending and that was anything but that of a christian. This happened so many times I became very discouraged and was thankful my employees handled it with grace. Believe me Snoopy its not just you.

[Snoopy]

We each have a personal insight to God that no one else can or should have. I believe that God judges us all in the venue in which we find ourselves. True, what they did was absolutely wrong and very hurtful to their spouses and children. But what are they to do now? To divorce would not be either right nor necessary in God's sight. Just because we cannot see their pain which was spoken of in the video and their clear recognition of the pain that they caused their former spouses and families, does not give us the right to say that they must keep out of sight forever. Nor do we have a right to say that they cannot use their unique talents for the reaching of new people for God. We do not have a right to say that their ministry is against God just because we don't hear the same 'thou shalt not's' and 'you must do's' that we grew up with. (I contend that our church has been unbiblically 'controlling' of the lives of its members from the beginning. Remember, Jesus put a ring on the boy when he brought him home; the coin was from a dowry set that the women wore to be 'dressed up'; and the pearl of great price was not something sitting on a shelf! Yeah, I hear you about the spiritual application, but these were examples taken from the daily life of those who were in his hearing! ) I did not, in any sense, hear Greg and Shasta blaming anybody else for their situation as was mentioned by someone earlier in this thread.

There is a place for their ministry as far as I can see, because there are many who have been disenfranchised by the formal religious institutions of the day including and perhaps especially by the SDA church. But most of us have not walked in their shoes, have not felt the condemnation that they have felt, even from themselves, nor have most of us understood the forgiveness of God which I believe they have been freely given. Most of the time, I hear or see nothing but condemnation and the idea that these people must be continuously judged by what they have been forgiven for, not what they are doing in the present. We don't have the right to withhold forgiveness from those whom God has forgiven; and we don't know exactly who that is, unless we look in the mirror!

Well, it's time to get down from my soapbox now.

Bye, JT

Hi JT,

I just wanted to say that your post really hit an unhealed spot in my heart...and I wanted to thank you for your thoughts. You put a positive perspective on some ugly memories...and for that I am grateful!!

I was also glad to see both of you respond in writing the same way I did emotionally to the post. Snoopy your experience is very similar to my own. I have also experienced watching SDA women treat employees of mine (who were dressed very tastefully) in a manner that was horribly condescending and that was anything but that of a christian. This happened so many times I became very discouraged and was thankful my employees handled it with grace. Believe me Snoopy its not just you.

Oooohhh good... that is TWO votes that Snoopy is not (totally) nuts and there really is hope!!!

Thank you, NW!!!

[sonshineonme]

Hi JT,

I just wanted to say that your post really hit an unhealed spot in my heart...and I wanted to thank you for your thoughts. You put a positive perspective on some ugly memories...and for that I am grateful!!
Oooohhh good... that is TWO votes that Snoopy is not (totally) nuts and there really is hope!!!

Thank you, NW!!!

Yes..yes...I know, this thread is still off topic, and we could be doing this in the proper forum here at BSDA (which I have been to), but oddly enough, it has come up here too, and that may not be such a bad thing! I would venture to say it's a large population of us that feel this way....this is one reason why there are different types of churches (yes, SDA) doing things in different ways. Many of us could tell stories and tell of many kinds of inconsistencies we have seen up close. They were clearly wrong and damaging, more then most realize. But I think we might have to get back on topic, and join each other in the other forums where we could really talk about it all!

[princessdi]

If it were me, I would get up and each SS if it was my week, get up in front to make an announcement regardign the women's ministry, and attend board meeting. I do all these things and yet ans till wear my jewelry. I really want somebody to say something.......

.......actually my pastor did on the last Women's day. He reached over just before I was walking out to do the welcome, after making sure the other's on program were in their places, and says, Diane, I'm asking everyone to take off their jewelry when we are serving up front. Now, at this point he had been there five years, and I was on the board who interviewed him when he came, jewelry and all. Nto to mention he had a pair of the biggest pink stone cuff links I had every seen. In fact, I would never even wear earrings that large(nothing against them, just not my style).

Now, a little background. it ws also the end of a Rev. Sem. and they were doing baptisms and the Pstor/Bible worker there must have said something to him about asking the candidates to take off their jewelry and then seeing several of us women up front(more than not) with ours on. Anyway, our church had not had t hose issues in ooooh wee so you know I did not take it well. I thought about the fact that sevice had already started, and I was responsible.for the day and how it would sound for everybody to hear me cussing out the pastor, and how fast my Mother would get back there. I told him only because he asked me two minutes before I was to go up front, and I was in charge with guests there( and Missthg had not arrive yet to pull me up off him ), but that me and him were going to have a come to Jesus meetin' later. Anyway He hasn't asked me again, and I wear themeach and every week.......

Oh, thank GOD!!! I thought I was the only one who thinks like that. I've never quite been able to figure out that adornment thing...and I have often wondered about it in the context of mens' ties!! And also, women who wear belts...oh, and pins are OK I guess...! My academy experience was so filled with that kind of stuff that I got turned off of SDAism at a young age. Seemed they were more worried about make-up and jewelry than they were with my walk with Jesus... And yet, as you say, mansions and expensive cars are not specifically called out in the Bible!! Even back to the adornment thing...imagine two women who are dressing for SDA church...one spent $500 on the dress alone not to mention the matching shoes, purse and other "acceptable" accessories...and the other shows up in a simple JCPenneys (please, no offense to anyone who shops at JCP...I have shopped there many a time...) outfit with a string of fake pearls and...oh my...can you imagine...??? Ughhhh... I have struggled with that for YEARS!! Thank you SO much, gracetoyou, for sharing your perspective and helping me see that its not just me...!!!

OK that I was but I feel better. Thank you for listening.

[Snoopy]

If it were me, I would get up and each SS if it was my week, get up in front to make an announcement regardign the women's ministry, and attend board meeting. I do all these things and yet ans till wear my jewelry. I really want somebody to say something.......

.......actually my pastor did on the last Women's day. He reached over just before I was walking out to do the welcome, after making sure the other's on program were in their places, and says, Diane, I'm asking everyone to take off their jewelry when we are serving up front. Now, at this point he had been there five years, and I was on the board who interviewed him when he came, jewelry and all. Nto to mention he had a pair of the biggest pink stone cuff links I had every seen. In fact, I would never even wear earrings that large(nothing against them, just not my style).

Now, a little background. it ws also the end of a Rev. Sem. and they were doing baptisms and the Pstor/Bible worker there must have said something to him about asking the candidates to take off their jewelry and then seeing several of us women up front(more than not) with ours on. Anyway, our church had not had t hose issues in ooooh wee so you know I did not take it well. I thought about the fact that sevice had already started, and I was responsible.for the day and how it would sound for everybody to hear me cussing out the pastor, and how fast my Mother would get back there. I told him only because he asked me two minutes before I was to go up front, and I was in charge with guests there( and Missthg had not arrive yet to pull me up off him ), but that me and him were going to have a come to Jesus meetin' later. Anyway He hasn't asked me again, and I wear themeach and every week.......

Oh, my... ...thank you for that great laugh!!...I really needed it today!!! And I can't tell you how relieved I am to know what great company I am in...!! I was just sitting here wondering what my fate might be if I happened to have earrings on when Jesus comes...! Next time I get to Northern Cal I'd like to visit your church, PrincessDi, to meet you and all the other "heathenettes" (not my term, but I like it...)

This post has been edited by Snoopy: Mar 20 2007, 11:24 PM

[GrammieTana]

Hi JT,

I just wanted to say that your post really hit an unhealed spot in my heart...and I wanted to thank you for your thoughts. You put a positive perspective on some ugly memories...and for that I am grateful!!

You are so welcome, Snoopy. And thank you to Grace to you, and Noah's wife. I'm glad I could be of service to you all. Now if we could just get Pickle and Oscar Lane (Who/Where is he anyway?! ) and the rest to listen with an ear that is not plugged with the stubborness of foolish scriptural twisting I love you guys, but really!


There's a lot more that I would like to say, but we do need to take it to another thread. Maybe, "Are we a cult? Thoughts/Points to ponder" And another day, too. G'nite all.

JT

[Observer]

Oh, thank GOD!!! I thought I was the only one who thinks like that. I've never quite been able to figure out that adornment thing...and I have often wondered about it in the context of mens' ties!! And also, women who wear belts...oh, and pins are OK I guess...! My academy experience was so filled with that kind of stuff that I got turned off of SDAism at a young age. Seemed they were more worried about make-up and jewelry than they were with my walk with Jesus... And yet, as you say, mansions and expensive cars are not specifically called out in the Bible!! Even back to the adornment thing...imagine two women who are dressing for SDA church...one spent $500 on the dress alone not to mention the matching shoes, purse and other "acceptable" accessories...and the other shows up in a simple JCPenneys (please, no offense to anyone who shops at JCP...I have shopped there many a time...) outfit with a string of fake pearls and...oh my...can you imagine...??? Ughhhh... I have struggled with that for YEARS!! Thank you SO much, gracetoyou, for sharing your perspective and helping me see that its not just me...!!!

OK that I was but I feel better. Thank you for listening.

Just a comment:

I wear a suit that a major store was selling for $500.00 In fact I wear several of them.

However, I paid $75.00 for that suit, and several others. And, I purchased it in that same major store, brand new. It was not a return. By the way, the alterations were free.

I live in a place where competation exists. Those $75.00 suits that I purchased were bought during a special 4-hour sale. If I had not purchased them during that 4-hour sale, I could have purchased them for $125.00, plus alterations, during a 24-hour sale. In this area, those special 24-hour sales are held about 2 to 3 times a year. That special 4-hour sale was a once a year sale.

Folks do not assume that becasue you believe a person is wearing clothing that they paid $X.xx for that you are correct. They may not be a lot less. Due to major competation where I live, my goal is to purchase my clothing at 15% to 25% of it normal selling price. Most of the time I can achieve that. Occasionally, I have to pay 33% for someting that I really want.

By the way, while I do not purchase these, I could in this area: We have a specialty store that stocks men's suits that regulary sell for from $1, 250.00 to $1,500.00, and this store sells them for a LOT less. They are major brands. In addition, during special sales, I have seen men's shoes selling for $900.00, go on sale for $600.00. No, I would never do that.


NOTE: I do agree that we have often spent to much emotional engergy on the clothes (mainly clothes that women wear) that people wear, and not enough on the relationship.


This post has been edited by Observer: Mar 21 2007, 05:01 AM

[Clay]

But really, we need to blame such standards on God, for as Oscar Lane pointed out back in 1984 in New Orleans, after God listed all the adornments of the daughters in Jerusalem in Is. 3:18-23, He called it all "filth" in Is. 4:4, and said in that same verse that if we don't take it off, He's going to burn it off. That point of Oscar Lane has stuck in my mind all these years.

Oscar Lane...... boy was that a blast from the past... His interpretation of that text was wrong.... completely wrong.... but some folks seem to like his zeal..... Anytime someone focuses on external appearance they have missed the message....

[PrincessDrRe]

Oscar Lane...... boy was that a blast from the past... His interpretation of that text was wrong.... completely wrong.... but some folks seem to like his zeal..... Anytime someone focuses on external appearance they have missed the message....

[daylily]

Jewelry was never my thing, even as a Baptist. I only wore earrings sometimes but basically they were just a nuisance (sp?) and I hated rings. I kept taking them off to wash my hands and losing them. I've never understood the fascination with jewelry:-) or neck ties:-) When I joined the SDA church, I wore really short short mini skirts. Those dear old ladies at the church never said a word about the way I dressed. Every Sabbath, they would hug me and tell me how glad they were to see me and never, ever said a thing about my dress or lack thereof. Gradually, I came to understand the whole modesty thing and lengthened my skirts.