Reaping The Whirl Wind, IRS Criminal Investigation of 3ABN Options

[Panama_Pete]

if people have nothing better to do that hang out in the 3abn sub-forum this long holiday weekend.... let em.....

Hang out in the 3ABN sub forum.

[Pickle]

In WWI both sides came out of their trenches and had a grand time visiting with one another over Christmas. The kind of thing that would make headlines and prompt congressional inquiries if it happened in Iraq today. But for a little while there was peace and joy and comraderie amongst those of differing nationalities and tongues but identical blood and flesh and Father.

And then Christmas was over, the leaders in their palaces or what not had a war to be fought, and the senseless carnage that caused such misery for millions of innocents began in earnest or anew. And those who were brothers yesterday slew each other.

"Peace on earth, good will toward men."
"Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven."
"Be born in us today."

I look forward to the day when this whole conflict that never should have been is forever behind us.

[Chez]

In WWI both sides came out of their trenches and had a grand time visiting with one another over Christmas. The kind of thing that would make headlines and prompt congressional inquiries if it happened in Iraq today. But for a little while there was peace and joy and comraderie amongst those of differing nationalities and tongues but identical blood and flesh and Father.

And then Christmas was over, the leaders in their palaces or what not had a war to be fought, and the senseless carnage that caused such misery for millions of innocents began in earnest or anew. And those who were brothers yesterday slew each other.

"Peace on earth, good will toward men."
"Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven."
"Be born in us today."

I look forward to the day when this whole conflict that never should have been is forever behind us.

I agree!

[jakann]

jakann, I find it fascinating that since we all see life from the perspective of our own experience, it is a human tendency to find and quote the verses and references that corroborate our experience, using them as a map that we believe all should follow. One of the least dry and spiritless speakers I know, who has been hugely fruitful in ministry, enjoys the challenge of the stock market. He has made quite a bit of money, which he uses to help in his ministry projects.

Shepherdswife,
Did this speaker also tell you of all the money he has lost as well? There are a lot of people in Christendom, including the Mafia, who give large sums of money to the "church". The abundance of money one gives and the perceived benefit that it appears to generate has no bearing upon whether or not that person is doing God's will.
Stock market. Let me say that there is no sin in buying stock in a legitimate company. As a stock holder you are an investor/owner in the operation of a business enterprise. As a stock holder you aim to see the company succeed and to reap a well-earned dividend some time, maybe even years, down the road.
But where the problem emerges is those who play the stock or commodity markets as a means of speculation. Stock is held not to collect a dividend but to turn at the nearest chance of finding some one to take it off your hands. You sell a stock when it is at the highest price you think it will fetch based upon your analysis of the market. But your only hope is that someone will think that you are wrong and buy it off of you. If the price crashes off, wouldn't you, as a Christian, feel bad about the party who just bought your stock? Or is it just, "tough luck sucker" as you count your wad on the way to the bank.
Commodities are even worse. If you buy Spring Wheat futures at $10/bushel and it drops to $5 do you sell and cut your losses or do you double your investment and buy more bushels in the hopes that it will come back. What if it drops again? Buy more again?

I could never be a shareholder in a company that does business on the Sabbath. How many companies listed on the New York Stock Exchange conduct business on the Sabbath. All of them? In all my business ventures I never work on the Sabbath nor would I ask anyone else to do so. By investing in the general stock market--even mutual funds that are indexed or linked to the stock market, one is participating in Sabbath-breaking because you, as part owner/shareholder, are reaping a benefit from the Sabbath labor of others.

Could I do it? Probably not. I don't have the gift that he does. Your stock market experience is probably an indication that you don't have the gift, either...

I have zero experience in the stock market and have never even for a second been tempted to drop a dime into it. Who knows, maybe I have the "gift" to make a killing in it?

[jakann]

Nothing wrong with sports if we believe in good health then exercise cannot be ignored and taking part in a sports activity can be a part of that.

Denny,
We may a difference in opinion as to what "sports" are and maybe that's why we disagree. One may have excellent health without participating in the various "sports" which the world has fallen for. Of course, sports such as boxing, football, baseball and even tennis have been clearly identified as a form of idolatry by none other than God himself over a hundred years ago. We should avoid them.
If by "sports" you mean hiking, chopping wood, building houses, exploring nature, swimming, canoeing, bird watching, orienteering, gardening etc. then we are in full agreement.

Here is some good reading you might enjoy:
Counsels to Parents, Teachers, and Students Ch. 50 The Dangers in Amusements (p348)
The Adventist Home Chapter 80, "What shall we play?"

How a pastor chooses to recharge his batteries is for him to decide and not the membership.

Actually the choice is up to the one whom the pastor has given and surrendered his life to.
Who directs the work of a pastor? God.
Who has given us the blueprint as to how the work should be done? God.
Who wrote the user's manual(Bible) for minsitry? God.
Who told us how to raise Christian families? God.
Have a happy marriage? God.
How to educate our children? God.
Live a healthy life? God.
Overcome evil? God.
How to finance the work? God
How to evanglize the cities? God.
And last but not least, How pastors can recharge their batteries? God.

God has given much guidance on re-creation and rest. Why should pastors ignore it? And why should a congregation accept a pastor who defies the will of God in his life?

[jakann]

Wow I always thought a person could make money in the stock market, I didn't realize that there was a 100% chance to lose it. Enlightening indeed.

See my post to Denny about the stock market and investing.

So, would I be correct to assume Richard that you don't believe that the national Sunday law in the United States is imminent and that you do believe that the decree against buying or selling except those with the mark of the beast is far enough future that we don't have to worry about it?
Recognizing that the next great prohetic event is the national Sunday law, exactly how far out would you exactly place it? 3 years? 10 years? More? or Less?

[calvin]

Denny,
We may a difference in opinion as to what "sports" are and maybe that's why we disagree. One may have excellent health without participating in the various "sports" which the world has fallen for. Of course, sports such as boxing, football, baseball and even tennis have been clearly identified as a form of idolatry by none other than God himself over a hundred years ago. We should avoid them.
If by "sports" you mean hiking, chopping wood, building houses, exploring nature, swimming, canoeing, bird watching, orienteering, gardening etc. then we are in full agreement.

Here is some good reading you might enjoy:
Counsels to Parents, Teachers, and Students Ch. 50 The Dangers in Amusements (p348)
The Adventist Home Chapter 80, "What shall we play?"

It is post like this that give Ellen White a bad name. First of all EGW is not "God himself" as you have eluded too. Next you miss the whole context/the message EGW is giving. It is not the particular sport that is the problem, these are examples of sports that can lead to idolatry, but any earthly pursuit taken to certain extremes can do that, including swimming and canoeing that are competitive sports. In a nutshell it is the old "throw the baby out with the bath water" syndrome.

[calvin]

I could never be a shareholder in a company that does business on the Sabbath. How many companies listed on the New York Stock Exchange conduct business on the Sabbath. All of them? In all my business ventures I never work on the Sabbath nor would I ask anyone else to do so. By investing in the general stock market--even mutual funds that are indexed or linked to the stock market, one is participating in Sabbath-breaking because you, as part owner/shareholder, are reaping a benefit from the Sabbath labor of others.
I have zero experience in the stock market and have never even for a second been tempted to drop a dime into it. Who knows, maybe I have the "gift" to make a killing in it?

Well aren't you the righteous one. Do you use electricity in your home? After all the utility company works on the sabbath. You must walk everywhere and grow all your food. The automobile manufacturers and food processor work on the Sabbath. You won't invest in any of these companies but you have no problem using there products and services from laborer on the Sabbath. I find it interesting that you would draw the line here.

[Green Cochoa]

I could never be a shareholder in a company that does business on the Sabbath. How many companies listed on the New York Stock Exchange conduct business on the Sabbath. All of them? In all my business ventures I never work on the Sabbath nor would I ask anyone else to do so. By investing in the general stock market--even mutual funds that are indexed or linked to the stock market, one is participating in Sabbath-breaking because you, as part owner/shareholder, are reaping a benefit from the Sabbath labor of others.

Well aren't you the righteous one. Do you use electricity in your home? After all the utility company works on the sabbath. You must walk everywhere and grow all your food. The automobile manufacturers and food processor work on the Sabbath. You won't invest in any of these companies but you have no problem using there products and services from laborer on the Sabbath. I find it interesting that you would draw the line here.

This whole spiel on the stock market, and working with companies or supporting companies who do not follow God's commandments, refreshes my memory on a conversation I had with my father a few years ago.

We were discussing how there are now multiple Adventist channels available from satellite in North America, as well as in some other parts of the world. The monthly costs for broadcast from these satellites, coupled with the costs to uplink to the various satellites, runs in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, if I'm not mistaken. That's per month. So the annual costs are in the millions.

How much does it cost to buy a satellite? We did a little brainstorming on the idea, and finally reached the conclusion that although it could be more economical in the long run to do so, the church "powers that be" would likely never agree to it, for a single satellite, even if we quadrupled the Adventist channels available 24-7 (no small feat for original programming production), we would still not be able to fill all of the other channels, and would be forced to rent space on the satellite to other companies. The questions then become such as these: Can we allow someone to rent a channel space who will show Hollywood movies? Could we allow beer or tobacco commercials? Would we be willing to accept money from a company supported through questionable ethics in business? (For example, Ellen White speaks against churches receiving donations of the "blood money" of the liquor business.)

Going a step farther, we discussed partnering with other religious channels, such as Trinity, Good TV, etc. There are Buddhist channels, Catholic channels, Muslim channels, and many more--would these be better than "those other companies?"

Our conclusion was that we would likely never see it happen that our Adventist ministries such as 3ABN, Hope Television, Loma Linda Broadcasting Network, Blue Mountain Television, ATN, etc. would launch their own satellite.

Blessings,

Greenie.

[Observer]

I could never be a shareholder in a company that does business on the Sabbath. How many companies listed on the New York Stock Exchange conduct business on the Sabbath. All of them? In all my business ventures I never work on the Sabbath nor would I ask anyone else to do so. By investing in the general stock market--even mutual funds that are indexed or linked to the stock market, one is participating in Sabbath-breaking because you, as part owner/shareholder, are reaping a benefit from the Sabbath labor of others.
I have zero experience in the stock market and have never even for a second been tempted to drop a dime into it. Who knows, maybe I have the "gift" to make a killing in it?

O.K. Do you have an account atyour local bank--either checking or savings? Does either of our accounts pay you interest? What does your bank do with the money that you have placed in your account?

It invests it. Some is invested in local situations. Loans may be made to people who want to purchase homes. Other loans asre made to people who purchase business property. In Nevada your money may be used to establish a house of prositution. In other areas it maqy be used to establish a business that sells alcholic beverages, or a placle where people can gamble. Yes, it may be used for business that is conducted on the Sabbath.

I do not understand how you could establish a bank account.

By the way, do you ever send mail that is in transit (or delivered) on the Sabbath. NOTE: I am serious. I once knew a family that did not do so.

[Observer]

But where the problem emerges is those who play the stock or commodity markets as a means of speculation. Stock is held not to collect a dividend but to turn at the nearest chance of finding some one to take it off your hands. You sell a stock when it is at the highest price you think it will fetch based upon your analysis of the market. But your only hope is that someone will think that you are wrong and buy it off of you. If the price crashes off, wouldn't you, as a Christian, feel bad about the party who just bought your stock? Or is it just, "tough luck sucker" as you count your wad on the way to the bank.

Commodities are even worse. If you buy Spring Wheat futures at $10/bushel and it drops to $5 do you sell and cut your losses or do you double your investment and buy more bushels in the hopes that it will come back. What if it drops again? Buy more again?

*** *** ***

I have zero experience in the stock market and have never even for a second been tempted to drop a dime into it. Who knows, maybe I have the "gift" to make a killing in it?

You have demonstrated your lack of knowledge and experience.

You tell us that stocks are not purchased in order to recieve dividends. Are you aware of so-called "income stocks," and "income mutual funds" These are purchased in order to recieve an income stream, and not for capital appreciation.

You tell us that commodities are worse. Are you aware that the commodity market is what gives stability to the price of your corn flakes that you purchase in January. Folks, there is not a lot of corn that is being harvested in January in the mid-West. So, the Post company buys a corn future for delivery in January. They take delivery of that future, in January. By puirchasing that future in July, they can stabalize their purchase price for corn over the winter, and maintain a stable price throughoutthe winter months when corn is not being harvested.

The commodities market is grounded in companies who actually take delivery of the product, and want to stabalize the price over a period of time.

[Shepherdswife]

I have zero experience in the stock market and have never even for a second been tempted to drop a dime into it. Who knows, maybe I have the "gift" to make a killing in it?

My bad...

I confused johann's story with your post--thought you were the one who had invested and lost it. . .

Maybe you do...but I get the feeling we will never know!

shepherdswife

[Richard Sherwin]

Yes I do believe that there is a Sunday Law coming to the US, but I don't obsess over it nor do I try to figure out when it will happen. I could care less when, as long as my relationship is right with God. I don't need to worry about the Sunday Law. I try to live as if Christ was coming tomorrow or a hundred years from now. If all SDA's quit investing their money 50 years ago, for that matter if the church quit investing it's money (our money) 50 years ago we would be in a hurt of trouble. 40-50 years ago with the Cold War looming, and nuclear Armageddon seemingly upon us (and a Catholic president) many SDA thought that the world was going to end then with the return of Christ. It did not happen, and it might not happen anytime soon.

See my post to Denny about the stock market and investing.

So, would I be correct to assume Richard that you don't believe that the national Sunday law in the United States is imminent and that you do believe that the decree against buying or selling except those with the mark of the beast is far enough future that we don't have to worry about it?
Recognizing that the next great prohetic event is the national Sunday law, exactly how far out would you exactly place it? 3 years? 10 years? More? or Less?

[Richard Sherwin]

Every morsel of food you eat is somehow processed on Sabbath. Every time you buy something you are investing in a company that in some way benefits from Sabbath work. Every time you hear a sermon at your church someone is working on the Sabbath to your benefit. (It has been said, tongue in cheek, that the SDA church could not function without the heathens.) Our church pays people to work on the Sabbath, and so do I whenever I pay for my kids to go to a SDA school, or turn in a tithe check. So come down off your self righteous horse and join the real world.

All of life is a gamble, it's full of risks. You, Jakann, take financial risks every day. You try and minimize the risks as much as you can. People make very sound investments in the stock market, even the General Conference does. The world as we know it would not exist without people being willing to invest money in sound investments in exchange they get a return, some years little or none, some years lots and some years they loose money, just like a farmer or any business owner does. Welcome to the real world.

Shepherdswife,
Did this speaker also tell you of all the money he has lost as well? There are a lot of people in Christendom, including the Mafia, who give large sums of money to the "church". The abundance of money one gives and the perceived benefit that it appears to generate has no bearing upon whether or not that person is doing God's will.
Stock market. Let me say that there is no sin in buying stock in a legitimate company. As a stock holder you are an investor/owner in the operation of a business enterprise. As a stock holder you aim to see the company succeed and to reap a well-earned dividend some time, maybe even years, down the road.
But where the problem emerges is those who play the stock or commodity markets as a means of speculation. Stock is held not to collect a dividend but to turn at the nearest chance of finding some one to take it off your hands. You sell a stock when it is at the highest price you think it will fetch based upon your analysis of the market. But your only hope is that someone will think that you are wrong and buy it off of you. If the price crashes off, wouldn't you, as a Christian, feel bad about the party who just bought your stock? Or is it just, "tough luck sucker" as you count your wad on the way to the bank.
Commodities are even worse. If you buy Spring Wheat futures at $10/bushel and it drops to $5 do you sell and cut your losses or do you double your investment and buy more bushels in the hopes that it will come back. What if it drops again? Buy more again?

I could never be a shareholder in a company that does business on the Sabbath. How many companies listed on the New York Stock Exchange conduct business on the Sabbath. All of them? In all my business ventures I never work on the Sabbath nor would I ask anyone else to do so. By investing in the general stock market--even mutual funds that are indexed or linked to the stock market, one is participating in Sabbath-breaking because you, as part owner/shareholder, are reaping a benefit from the Sabbath labor of others.
I have zero experience in the stock market and have never even for a second been tempted to drop a dime into it. Who knows, maybe I have the "gift" to make a killing in it?

[Panama_Pete]

O.K. Do you have an account atyour local bank--either checking or savings? Does either of our accounts pay you interest? What does your bank do with the money that you have placed in your account?

It invests it. Some is invested in local situations. Loans may be made to people who want to purchase homes. Other loans asre made to people who purchase business property. In Nevada your money may be used to establish a house of prositution. In other areas it maqy be used to establish a business that sells alcholic beverages, or a placle where people can gamble. Yes, it may be used for business that is conducted on the Sabbath.

I do not understand how you could establish a bank account.

By the way, do you ever send mail that is in transit (or delivered) on the Sabbath. NOTE: I am serious. I once knew a family that did not do so.

This is from Adventist Today , March-April 2000. It touches on the issues Observer brought up.

http://www.atoday.com/magazine/2000/03/thank-god-gentiles


Thank God for the Gentiles

Concerning What's "Essential" Service?

JAMES COFFIN--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Recently I was preparing a sermon on the story of Jonah when it suddenly struck me just how astoundingly successful he was as an evangelist-everyone in the entire city of Nineveh turned to God. A 100 percent conversion rate in a major population center is so incredible that, were it not recorded in the Bible, I would find it hard to believe.

On the very day I was contemplating Jonah's amazing success, I received details of a major evangelistic series to be run in New York City the latter part of 1999. The thought leaped to mind: What if our Adventist preacher were as successful as Jonah? What would be the implications if everyone in New York City became a Seventh-day Adventist? But before I try to answer those questions, let me do a little random reminiscing.

Nearly ten years ago I was a delegate to the General Conference Session in Indianapolis. So that Adventists wouldn't have to buy food on Sabbath, session organizers had arranged with various eating establishments for us to prepay for our meals. Those prepaying received a receipt that would entitle them to a meal on Sabbath.

Although we prepaid to avoid having to buy on Sabbath, we didn't seek any guarantee that our food would be prepared initially on Friday, then merely reheated and served when we handed in our receipt on Sabbath. It seems we were more concerned about our having to buy than about their having to work.

About twenty-five years ago I was holding forth before a group of students about the virtues of country living. It was my second year in ministry, and I was serving as chaplain for an Adventist students' association at a state university.

Having outlined in considerable detail the virtues of country of living and the specifics of how it was possible for anyone adequately motivated, I was taken aback when an Adventist professor from the university gently informed me that my thinking was flawed. "You've forgotten the law of composition," he said.

"If you're at a football game and can't see because heads are in your way, it will help if you stand up. But it will help only as long as few people do it. If everyone stands, you lose the advantage. In the same way, your ideas of country living are predicated on the assumption that most people won't do it. If everyone did, we couldn't support the technological infrastructure that makes country living, as you've outlined it, viable."

So, what are the implications of the entire population joining the Adventist church? Do Adventists unwittingly ignore the law of composition? Would it be possible to satisfy Adventism's traditional expectations in an environment that's 100 percent Adventist and still have a technologically advanced society? Let's note but a few of the many complexities.

For starters, there's the police force. If New York City becomes 100 percent Adventist, there are basically two options for protecting its totally Adventist citizenry against unsavory types from elsewhere: leave all personal and property protection to God, or maintain a police force. If the latter option is chosen, police protection is needed 24 hours a day, seven days a week, which creates a Sabbath-work dilemma.

Of course, as the police seek to protect lives and property, they face another dilemma: do they expect God to protect them from harm, or carry deadly weapons? If the entire nation is Adventist but surrounding nations aren't, we have an even greater problem of protection from aggressors. The national police force is called the "military."

If it isn't realistic to expect God to consistently protect his people, then we would be forced to play roles that we were able to avoid when there were plenty of non-SDAs ("Gentiles") willing to do them.

The church life and personal life of NYC Adventists presuppose the availability of electricity on Sabbath. Church sanctuaries are so large that a speaker would never be heard were there no sound system. Lighting, air conditioning and heating are taken for granted. Food has to be kept cool. Even on Sabbath, Adventists depend on subways, traffic signals, elevators, and life-support apparatus at hospitals.

All of this is made possible by electricity. And this electricity comes from a power plant somewhere, which is operated by human beings. There would be similar concerns with water supply, sewage disposal, fire protection, and snow removal.

If the entire population of New York City were Seventh-day Adventist, church members would have to run the hospitality industry, if it continued to exist. Would no hotel patrons be allowed to check in or out on Sabbath?

Would there be no room service on Sabbath or customer-service representatives? Would hotel patrons have to buy food on Friday, to be eaten in their rooms on Sabbath? Would they be served meals in the hotel restaurant only if they had paid in advance?

Today's high-tech society doesn't allow everything to grind to a halt once every seven days. Nor, for that matter, did a bygone, more low-tech society. For example, the sailing vessel taking Ellen White to Australia in the late 1800s always required at least some oversight on Sabbath. Students in Adventist boarding schools have always required meal service on Sabbaths. Child care has always been a 24/7 task.

The examples I've provided don't scratch the surface of the complexity of our modern society. But these few cases are sufficient to show the incompatibility of many traditional Adventist structures with a hypothetical 100 percent Adventist population of a city or a nation.

If everyone in NYC became an Adventist we would have to adjust our concept of what's acceptable for Adventists to do, or we would have to import non-Adventists to do Sabbath work. And this dilemma cannot be solved by moving out of NYC. In Missoula, Montana we still need oil and gas from refineries to run our chain saws and Honda generators. And those refineries must run continuously. Even in small towns and in the country, we still rely on police and fire protection and probably think that the availability of electricity and telephone service on Sabbath is a good idea. The only reason we've been able to retain both our belief system and our technologically sophisticated lifestyle is that there are a huge number of non-SDAs who can do for us what we find unacceptable to do for ourselves.

Some find no incongruity, no dilemma, no cause for consternation in this fact. I'm not one of them. If I can't have my cake and eat it too in a society where everyone is Seventh-day Adventist, then I wonder if I should have qualms about doing so where few are Adventists.

If my religious practice is rendered nonviable when Gentiles are removed from the equation, then my religious practices need to be seriously reevaluated. At the very least, I need to understand the inherent incongruities and the magnitude of what I'm dealing with. Do the Gentiles provide Adventists with a lifestyle that would otherwise be out of reach?

I'm not trying to do away with the Sabbath or any other Adventist belief; I'm not trying to make them of no consequence. In fact, I think the Sabbath, when seen in nonlegalistic terms, is one of the most beautiful doctrines espoused by the Adventist church. But I believe we need to either deny ourselves the benefits we derive from Sabbath breaking by Gentiles on our behalf or change our concept of Sabbath keeping.

In the agrarian society of the Old Testament the Hebrews recognized that certain jobs still had to be done. They still fed and milked their cows and goats, even though the commandment said they were to do no work. And in the New Testament Jesus endorsed the concept of helping the ox out of the ditch on Sabbath. He made it clear that it was lawful to do good.

But just how far does the concept of doing good go? And in a complex society, what constitutes an ox in the ditch? Where should we draw the line concerning what's "essential" service?

My purpose isn't to imply that the traditional prohibitions we've practiced should be ignored, but to call for rigorous, thoughtful reexamination of how Sabbath-keeping principles apply in modern society. We need to ask ourselves why we've drawn the lines where we have. Can we justify them objectively?

I'm not suggesting that there should be no standards and that all Adventists should just do as they please. But we need to rethink how and where we've drawn many of our lines of demarcation. And I think we must recognize the need for great individual latitude in determining just how to relate to such complex issues.

Until we've acknowledged the existence of this quagmire of complexity and wrestled with its implications, the least we can do is to thank God every day for the Gentiles-because, without them, life would be pretty grim.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

James Coffin, associate pastor of the Markham Woods Seventh-day Adventist Church in the Orlando suburb of Longwood, is former news editor of the Adventist Review.