Reaping The Whirl Wind, IRS Criminal Investigation of 3ABN Options

[Observer]

Panama_Pete: It reminds methat I once lived in Panama City in the country of Panama. I could look out of my office window and wee ships in the Mira Flores locks. On one occasion I walked accross the Panama Cannal--not over it, but under it!

The issue that you and Coffen raise is an important one, and one that I have had to deal with many times. In fact it was this that reminded me of living in Panama. I did a question and answer service in one of the SDA churches in Panama City in whilch this issue was a point of major discussion.

Waht about SAbbath observence and unlawful work? I will make th following suggestions:

1) Work is either wrong or OK to do on the Sabbath. If it is OK, it is OK to be done by a Sabbath keeper. If it is wrong, it is wrong to be done by a non-sabbath keepter.

IOW A Sabbathl keeper should not attempt to justify on the basis that the work is performed by one who does not keep the Sabbath. So, if electricity is needed on the Sabbath, a Sabbath keeper should be willing to perform that duty on the Sabbath.

2) It is not made right or wrong on the basis of payment. If one performs work, it is OK to be paid for doing so. A lack of payment does not justify performance of work.

I could give many illustrations of the dumb things that we sometimes do in this matter.

E.G. A church requests certain services on the Sabbath, from a governmental agency, and then attempt to discipline the SDA employee who shows up to perform the requested service, and many more.

[Green Cochoa]

Every morsel of food you eat is somehow processed on Sabbath. Every time you buy something you are investing in a company that in some way benefits from Sabbath work. Every time you hear a sermon at your church someone is working on the Sabbath to your benefit. (It has been said, tongue in cheek, that the SDA church could not function without the heathens.) Our church pays people to work on the Sabbath, and so do I whenever I pay for my kids to go to a SDA school, or turn in a tithe check. So come down off your self righteous horse and join the real world.

All of life is a gamble, it's full of risks. You, Jakann, take financial risks every day. You try and minimize the risks as much as you can. People make very sound investments in the stock market, even the General Conference does. The world as we know it would not exist without people being willing to invest money in sound investments in exchange they get a return, some years little or none, some years lots and some years they loose money, just like a farmer or any business owner does. Welcome to the real world.

What you've said has a great deal of truth. It is true that without sound investments in multiple categories (economic sectors), one really is putting their eggs in one basket. If your investment is all in a savings account at the bank....well, it's all in cash, and if the bank goes under, guess where those figures on paper go? On the other hand, if one invests all in gold, what is to happen if the gold price dives? Wise investors recognize that, just like the pistons in a four-cylinder car, the values on individual investments will rise and fall, but usually not in tandem. While one is falling, another is rising. Those who invest in the stock market usually invest in a minimum of four or five separate economies (energy market, commodities, gold, agribusiness, telecommunications, etc.).

However, where the rubber meets the road for a Seventh-day Adventist Christian, is the knowledge of the fact that by investing in a particular company, one is essentially giving them a vote of confidence along with actual monetary support. We all need food, fuel, etc. and perhaps we cannot help the fact that those who sell it are in league with companies that promote things against our conscience. However, there is no requirement to support those same companies by investing in their stocks. Here is where it becomes a matter of conscience, and where I feel we should each allow the other to make these decisions without judging.

The fact remains that not all money is created equal.

Blessings,

Greenie.

[Pickle]

Having an account at a bank does not give one ownership in the bank, but owning stocks does give one ownership in those companies. Yet, here the phone company, insurance company, and power company are co-ops, so by default I am part owner of them. But I take no responsibility for the choices they make regarding the Sabbath.

"... nor thy stranger that is within thy gates ..." It is definitely wrong to intentionally get non-Sabbath-keepers to do unlawful work that we want done anyway.

Regarding police and armies, let me share a story from my own experience, a story that doesn't attempt to entirely answer that question. First,

The people were surrounded by fierce, warlike tribes, that were eager to seize upon their lands; yet three times every year all the able-bodied men and all the people who could make the journey were directed to leave their homes and repair to the place of assembly, near the center of the land. What was to hinder their enemies from sweeping down upon those unprotected households, to lay them waste with fire and sword? What was to prevent an invasion of the land, that would bring Israel into captivity to some foreign foe? God had promised to be the protector of His people. "The angel of Jehovah encampeth round about them that fear Him, and delivereth them." Psalm 34:7. While the Israelites went up to worship, divine power would place a restraint upon their enemies. God's promise was, "I will cast out the nations before thee, and enlarge thy borders: neither shall any man desire thy land, when thou shalt go up to appear before the Lord thy God thrice in the year." Exodus 34:24. (Patriarchs and Prophets 537)

Mom was burdened about the influence the TV was having on us five little kids, and made it a matter of earnest prayer. Eventually, she asked the Lord to get the TV out of our house.

We were off to camp meeting and Dad was away on business. A neighbor called Mom at camp meeting and said, "I'm so sorry. You've been robbed." That's hard news to hear.

"What did they take?"

"They took the TV"

"Praise the Lord!"

When Dad got home and looked it over, he said, "This looks like an inside job." They crawled through my brothers' second story bedroom window, left untouched some money they had laying around, left untouched money laying around elsewhere, went downstairs, took the TV antenna off the TV and put it on the floor, and walked off with only the TV. That was it.

Camp meeting corresponds to the annual feasts of yesteryear, and Ex. 34:24 promises protection on our possessions when away at such events, but there was one item in our home from which protection had been withdrawn, by special request.

Like I said, I did not intend Ex. 34:24 to be a total answer to the questions raised, but it should give some occasion for thought.

Even though it was Moses who wrote Ex. 34:24, not God, it still seems appropriate to call it "God's promise." For certain, it is Moses' recording of what God explicitly told him.

[Richard Sherwin]

Reminds me of my families TV story. Growing up we didn't have one in the house, but when I was about 11 someone let us use theirs while they served in Vietnam. I was mesmerized by it, watching Gilligan's Island was heaven to me. My father prayed to God that if that TV was having a negative influence on his son (me) that something would happen to it. The next day it quit working, I was upset but that's just the way it was. The man came back from Vietnam, took the TV home and it worked just fine. OT, sorry.

Having an account at a bank does not give one ownership in the bank, but owning stocks does give one ownership in those companies. Yet, here the phone company, insurance company, and power company are co-ops, so by default I am part owner of them. But I take no responsibility for the choices they make regarding the Sabbath.

"... nor thy stranger that is within thy gates ..." It is definitely wrong to intentionally get non-Sabbath-keepers to do unlawful work that we want done anyway.

Regarding police and armies, let me share a story from my own experience, a story that doesn't attempt to entirely answer that question. First,
Mom was burdened about the influence the TV was having on us five little kids, and made it a matter of earnest prayer. Eventually, she asked the Lord to get the TV out of our house.

We were off to camp meeting and Dad was away on business. A neighbor called Mom at camp meeting and said, "I'm so sorry. You've been robbed." That's hard news to hear.

"What did they take?"

"They took the TV"

"Praise the Lord!"

When Dad got home and looked it over, he said, "This looks like an inside job." They crawled through my brothers' second story bedroom window, left untouched some money they had laying around, left untouched money laying around elsewhere, went downstairs, took the TV antenna off the TV and put it on the floor, and walked off with only the TV. That was it.

Camp meeting corresponds to the annual feasts of yesteryear, and Ex. 34:24 promises protection on our possessions when away at such events, but there was one item in our home from which protection had been withdrawn, by special request.

Like I said, I did not intend Ex. 34:24 to be a total answer to the questions raised, but it should give some occasion for thought.

Even though it was Moses who wrote Ex. 34:24, not God, it still seems appropriate to call it "God's promise." For certain, it is Moses' recording of what God explicitly told him.

[Johann]

Panama_Pete: It reminds methat I once lived in Panama City in the country of Panama. I could look out of my office window and wee ships in the Mira Flores locks. On one occasion I walked accross the Panama Cannal--not over it, but under it!

The issue that you and Coffen raise is an important one, and one that I have had to deal with many times. In fact it was this that reminded me of living in Panama. I did a question and answer service in one of the SDA churches in Panama City in whilch this issue was a point of major discussion.

Waht about SAbbath observence and unlawful work? I will make th following suggestions:

1) Work is either wrong or OK to do on the Sabbath. If it is OK, it is OK to be done by a Sabbath keeper. If it is wrong, it is wrong to be done by a non-sabbath keepter.

IOW A Sabbathl keeper should not attempt to justify on the basis that the work is performed by one who does not keep the Sabbath. So, if electricity is needed on the Sabbath, a Sabbath keeper should be willing to perform that duty on the Sabbath.

2) It is not made right or wrong on the basis of payment. If one performs work, it is OK to be paid for doing so. A lack of payment does not justify performance of work.

I could give many illustrations of the dumb things that we sometimes do in this matter.

E.G. A church requests certain services on the Sabbath, from a governmental agency, and then attempt to discipline the SDA employee who shows up to perform the requested service, and many more.

I suppose not al will agree with your conclusion, although it seems just. It reminds me of a good friend of mine who was a bus driver. It was not possible for him to get Sabbths off all the time. He would drive other Sabbathkeepers to church on those days he had to work. He did not like it, so finally he quit driving that bus when he succeeded in finding employment elsewhere.

Although many Sabbathkeepers in the past have taken the bus on Sabbath to church, it has usually seemed much more sinful to drive a bus on Sabbath than to work in a hospital.

My friend was never disciplined by the church. Should that have happpened?

This post has been edited by Johann: Dec 22 2007, 03:18 PM

[YogusBearus]

I suppose not al will agree with your conclusion, although it seems just. It reminds me of a good friend of mine who was a bus driver. It was not possible for him to get Sabbths off all the time. He would drive other Sabbathkeepers to church on those days he had to work. He did not like it, so finally he quit driving that bus when he succeeded in finding employment elsewhere.

Although many Sabbathkeepers in the past have taken the bus on Sabbath to church, it has usually seemed much more sinful to drive a bus on Sabbath than to work in a hospital.

My friend was never disciplined by the church. Should that have happpened?

Ah yes, church discipline. Johann, I suspect you were very supportive of your friend and this wasn't the course taken.

I've never understood the fascination some have with church discipline. It seems to me that the only discipline available to the church is to take something away that only they can bestow. Other than your membership or high office in the church, what else is there?

For those interested in punishment, I suspect it would have been much more effective to gossip about the poor man behind his back and feel righteous.

-bear

[Pickle]

Reminds me of my families TV story. Growing up we didn't have one in the house, but when I was about 11 someone let us use theirs while they served in Vietnam. I was mesmerized by it, watching Gilligan's Island was heaven to me. My father prayed to God that if that TV was having a negative influence on his son (me) that something would happen to it. The next day it quit working, I was upset but that's just the way it was. The man came back from Vietnam, took the TV home and it worked just fine. OT, sorry.

Wish I could say that Gilligan's Island was all we were watching.

[Richard Sherwin]

The mid to late 60's were a pretty innocent time to be TV watching, it was the news of the day that was frightening, riots, assassination's, Vietnam, free love and all the rest. Of course what hung over all of us was the fear of nuclear war with the USSR.

Wish I could say that Gilligan's Island was all we were watching.

[Johann]

Wish I could say that Gilligan's Island was all we were watching.

Must admit I once got hooked on I Love Lucy

[Richard Sherwin]

And it was too risque to show her and Desi in the same bed together, even though they were married. Times have changed a bit.

Must admit I once got hooked on I Love Lucy

[PeacefulBe]

The mid to late 60's were a pretty innocent time to be TV watching, it was the news of the day that was frightening, riots, assassination's, Vietnam, free love and all the rest. Of course what hung over all of us was the fear of nuclear war with the USSR.

Yes, I remember the innocent show, Laugh-In, LOL!

[PeacefulBe]

Ah yes, church discipline. Johann, I suspect you were very supportive of your friend and this wasn't the course taken.

I've never understood the fascination some have with church discipline. It seems to me that the only discipline available to the church is to take something away that only they can bestow. Other than your membership or high office in the church, what else is there?
For those interested in punishment, I suspect it would have been much more effective to gossip about the poor man behind his back and feel righteous.

-bear

Well, we could ponder revisiting some forms of church discipline from years gone by...



Was this any more effective in spreading the Gospel and working towards edifying our fellow brothers and sisters than gossiping righteously behind their backs?

[jakann]

Well aren't you the righteous one. Do you use electricity in your home? After all the utility company works on the sabbath. You must walk everywhere and grow all your food. The automobile manufacturers and food processor work on the Sabbath. You won't invest in any of these companies but you have no problem using there products and services from laborer on the Sabbath. I find it interesting that you would draw the line here.

You have me at a disadvantage Calvin. You know where I stand but I don't know where you do. Please let me know where you would draw the line on owning a company that does business on the Sabbath.

[jakann]

We were discussing how there are now multiple Adventist channels available from satellite in North America, as well as in some other parts of the world. The monthly costs for broadcast from these satellites, coupled with the costs to uplink to the various satellites, runs in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, if I'm not mistaken. That's per month. So the annual costs are in the millions.

Greenie, interesting dilemma you've noted. I have a feeling though that IPTV is going to soon obsolete a lot of those satellites.
Rgds,
jakann

[jakann]

O.K. Do you have an account atyour local bank--either checking or savings? Does either of our accounts pay you interest? What does your bank do with the money that you have placed in your account?

It invests it. Some is invested in local situations. Loans may be made to people who want to purchase homes. Other loans asre made to people who purchase business property. In Nevada your money may be used to establish a house of prositution. In other areas it maqy be used to establish a business that sells alcholic beverages, or a placle where people can gamble. Yes, it may be used for business that is conducted on the Sabbath.

I do not understand how you could establish a bank account.

By the way, do you ever send mail that is in transit (or delivered) on the Sabbath. NOTE: I am serious. I once knew a family that did not do so.

You give me the impression that we can invest in companies without taking any regard as to whether or not they do business on the Sabbath. Was this your intent?