An Unauthorized History of 3ABN, Chapter 5 (thread was closed then reopened) Options

[watchbird]

How does forgiveness comes into play?? Do I put it in God's hands or do I take care of it myself?

What do you mean by "forgiveness"? Are you speaking personally, as in how do you forgive something specific that was done to you? Or are you speaking in generalities? In either case, when you say "forgiveness" what does that word mean to you? Or, if you see it as having different meanings in different contexts, what are some of those different kinds of things?

[summertime]

Just what you are doing here -- providing a place where the stories can be told and once told viewed by all -- is an extremely important "anything". As you have no doubt noticed, this encourages some to come forward and tell their stories, and as others see that they are received in kindly ways and with trust in their truthfulness, others also are encouraged to step forward. So in a very real way, keeping on "talking about it" IS to be doing "what we can".

Know also that there are some who are working quietly to find ways and means to accomplish what needs to be done for the good of the church -- for the good of all of us. And know that there are many besides those posting on this board who are taking courage from what they read here and contacting some of those "behind the scenes" workers.

Beyond your encouragement on this board, there is the "everyone win one" principle. With caution, love, and sensitivity, watch for ways to spread what you learn here to others who may not realize what is going on.

Mostly it is a time for exercising patience, for "waiting on the Lord" at the same time as we fill that waiting period with whatever "doing" that He points out to us and as He opens the doors of opportunity.

But caution and carefulness are still the order of the day. It is much too complex and difficult for any of us to step out in the "hero" role. I recall an old song from years ago -- "Side by side we stand, awaiting God's command". That seems to express ou present position well.

Thnak you, Watchbird, for the encouraging words. Thank you also for toning me down a bit--I guess that I get overanxious to see justice for the 'younger than I' (which is probably everybody) who have been treated so badly at 3ABN while I have in the past given sacrificially to the cause of 3ABN . I thought that I was giving to the cause of God and for the sake of the younger generations that will grow up watching this 'escapade' of Danny and his board who at one time had my utmost allegiance

I know that our young folks need to have their role models before them in the persons of Mom and Dad, but not all young people have that privilege. I live in a community where we have one of our academies and the thing that has been told to me by the Principal there is that too many parents just don't care enough about their children to teach them right from wrong. They are satisfied to pay money to the school and let the influences fall where they may. So it falls to the teachers, the churches and to the ministers here who regularly take up 'goodwill offerings' for that wonderful entity who speaks for God---Danny Shelton and 3ABN. If the youth are listening at all, they are being told what a wonderful example is Danny, the man who is spoken to by God.
But I do know that God is in charge. As my grandaughter says to me, "Now, grandma, don't go praying me out of a situation until you know what it is all about.." As for forgiveness, we certainly can forgive even the sinners, but there is still room enough left for us to encourage or persuade them to quit doing whatever they are being forgiven for. I don't want to hurt anyone, but that is what I am all about.

[Peachesevie]

Who do you think shows you how to take care of it?

I doubt that God would tell you to air someone's dirty laudry for the whole world to see. Then again according to you am probably wrong

[awesumtenor]

I doubt that God would tell you to air someone's dirty laudry for the whole world to see. Then again according to you am probably wrong

You would be in error, according to the bible... if Samuel, Elijah and John the Baptist, among others, are any indication.

In His service,
Mr. J

[Guest_statrei_*]

I doubt that God would tell you to air someone's dirty laudry for the whole world to see. Then again according to you am probably wrong

Hey, I knew nothing about this laundry basket until it was shoved under my nose.

[sister]

Thanks for your interest. While Beartrap would be the only one (that I know of) who is posting here that could give you an "insiders" (at that time) view of the rationale given around 3ABN itself, I can give background information on the underlying reasons for the rejection of the contract.

In the packet of information sent out at the time from 3ABN, there was also a copy of an evaluation of the contract that was done by a 3ABN lawyer. I don't think I understand the legaleze enough to even be real sure as to what it said. It's lengthy, but I can post it here if anyone is interested in examining it. But that is of little value, since the real reasons they rejected the contract do not lie with the specific items, but with the idea of having a formal "signed contract" of any kind.

In partial "defense" of the rejection it is only fair to point out that at the time this came up, not only independent ministries, but official church institutions, especially educational institutions of higher learning, were also concerned about Folkenberg's efforts to get everyone in line with his thinking, even to the extent of trying to require "loyalty oaths" on key points of practice and doctrine. So from one angle 3ABN could be excused for resisting a contract on this basis.

However, that is not the whole story, nor does that account for 3ABN's resistance from the beginning to taking any guidance or to having any lines of accountability to the church they claimed to be serving. That the "reasons" do not lie in the specific stipulations of the contract itself, but in something much more basic than that, can be seen by a careful reading of the letter from Bill Hulsey, which I posted yesterday. If you will notice, he makes no complaints about specific language or requirements in the proposed contract. His objections are to the very notion of having any contract at all.

This may not be seen as significant by those not acquainted with the attitudes held in the old "self-supporting work" which are held as models for many (though not all) "Independent Ministries" today. The primary one being a deep distrust of what they call the "organized work", that is to say the Conference structures. The phrase "kingly powers", when applied to church leaders, comes straight from these sources. And the condemnation and fear of control by the "organized church" which this phrase indicates, follows recognized psychological functions of betraying their own desire for control, as can be clearly seen as one examines this type of Independent Ministry.

If you combine this with the principles (almost doctrines) held by these groups--that of the function of the "prophet, priest, and king" God assigned roles, then you have the solid, unshakable ground for resistance to any "signed contract" which deprives (or even limits) the power, control, and even leadership (of the church itself) function of the Independent Ministry. Thus the very idea of having a "signed contract" is anathema to them, as the letter from Hulsey indicates.

I believe the reasoning behind the item I have bolded above is of interest on a wider level. Perhaps it is the time to split this topic into another thread, Watchbird. I think it might be of interest to others who are not reading this thread. Thankyou.

Sister

[watchbird]

. . . .
However, that is not the whole story, nor does that account for 3ABN's resistance from the beginning to taking any guidance or to having any lines of accountability to the church they claimed to be serving. That the "reasons" do not lie in the specific stipulations of the contract itself, but in something much more basic than that, can be seen by a careful reading of the letter from Bill Hulsey, which I posted yesterday. If you will notice, he makes no complaints about specific language or requirements in the proposed contract. His objections are to the very notion of having any contract at all.

This may not be seen as significant by those not acquainted with the attitudes held in the old "self-supporting work" which are held as models for many (though not all) "Independent Ministries" today. The primary one being a deep distrust of what they call the "organized work", that is to say the Conference structures. The phrase "kingly powers", when applied to church leaders, comes straight from these sources. And the condemnation and fear of control by the "organized church" which this phrase indicates, follows recognized psychological functions of betraying their own desire for control, as can be clearly seen as one examines this type of Independent Ministry.

If you combine this with the principles (almost doctrines) held by these groups--that of the function of the "prophet, priest, and king" God assigned roles, then you have the solid, unshakable ground for resistance to any "signed contract" which deprives (or even limits) the power, control, and even leadership (of the church itself) function of the Independent Ministry. Thus the very idea of having a "signed contract" is anathema to them, as the letter from Hulsey indicates.

I believe the reasoning behind the item I have bolded above is of interest on a wider level. Perhaps it is the time to split this topic into another thread, Watchbird. I think it might be of interest to others who are not reading this thread. Thankyou.

Sister

I would have no objection if the staff wish to split the thread. However I doubt that any who are not interested in reading the 3ABN threads would be interested in this either. And the various connections with other independent ministries, including that of a Shelton brother who started out as an SDA minister but was defrocked for the way he was leading his church (but is now back at 3ABN), are an integral part of the history of 3ABN. As is the way that the teachings of "prophet, priest, and king" have merged with Pentecostal beliefs at 3ABN, making it a particular virulant strain of this "basic belief".

You may be right that it should be a separate thread, but I don't know how to do that, nor would I be able to move whatever posts should be moved to it, nor would I know how to label it so it would come up on a search of 3ABN threads in the future. So I'll leave that to the professionals here. I'll just follow the flow.

[Clay]

since this thread is so long, why not just start another thread... if there are some posts you want moved, let me know and I will move them to the new thread when someone starts it....

[Denny]

Perhaps we need a separate forum called The 3ABN series or 3ABN The untold story or Dallas the return or CSI ......

[princessdi]

They do seem to be multiplying................

Perhaps we need a separate forum called The 3ABN series or 3ABN The untold story or Dallas the return or CSI ......

[sister]

“Deep Pockets...”

Lets turn again to Danny’s benefactor. He was introduced earlier in, “A Man of Influence...” Retired, connected in the highest of Adventist circles, influential and powerful, many tremble at his slightest gesture of displeasure, when their decisions run contrary to his master plan. Why such a pronounced reaction? He that giveth and can taketh away the funding he has provided for so many official church and supporting ministries projects. To spurn his counsel, can mean “to cut off your nose, to spite your face” financially. How do you spell the respect and honor that is shown to him, M-O-N-E-Y. Compared to this man, Danny is merely small fish to fry.

But this is not his story, except for the part he has played in the past and continues to play in the present of 3ABN. And to attempt to throw any further light onto his dealings is a contest on the level of the young shepherd boy, David, facing off against the seasoned warrior and giant, Goliath. Only with the assurance of God’s leading in that battle is it anything more than a single kamikaze pilot flying against the entirety of the wartime USA Pacific fleet. That is not the purpose for which we are here. But before I leave these shark infested waters, I pose some questions: Why would this man sustain and protect Danny Shelton, for what purpose? Is it just his philanthropic nature getting the best of him? Perhaps there is someone else who would like to elaborate on these questions?

Stay tuned...

[lurker]

“Deep Pockets...”

Lets turn again to Danny’s benefactor. He was introduced earlier in, “A Man of Influence...” Retired, connected in the highest of Adventist circles, influential and powerful, many tremble at his slightest gesture of displeasure, when their decisions run contrary to his master plan. Why such a pronounced reaction? He that giveth and can taketh away the funding he has provided for so many official church and supporting ministries projects. To spurn his counsel, can mean “to cut off your nose, to spite your face” financially. How do you spell the respect and honor that is shown to him, M-O-N-E-Y. Compared to this man, Danny is merely small fish to fry.

But this is not his story, except for the part he has played in the past and continues to play in the present of 3ABN. And to attempt to throw any further light onto his dealings is a contest on the level of the young shepherd boy, David, facing off against the seasoned warrior and giant, Goliath. Only with the assurance of God’s leading in that battle is it anything more than a single kamikaze pilot flying against the entirety of the wartime USA Pacific fleet. That is not the purpose for which we are here. But before I leave these shark infested waters, I pose some questions: Why would this man sustain and protect Danny Shelton, for what purpose? Is it just his philanthropic nature getting the best of him? Perhaps there is someone else who would like to elaborate on these questions?
Stay tuned...

I can't read minds. Sometimes I don't even know why I do some things. I look at things I have done and shake my head. Why did I do this? Why did I do that? So how would I know why anyone does what they do? I do know by personal experience that the best works of the best of us all are continually tainted with egotism and the will to "have things my way". We don't even admit to ourselves how much we enjoy the admiration and approval of others and how much it influences our decisions. In Jesus' day, he chastized men who wanted to be seen as pius, who wanted to get rid of Him because he wouldn't praise them and excuse their sin, the sin of pride.

On the other hand, it doesn't bother the conscience of some people both inside and outside of the church to butter people up (including the powerful) in order to get into their pockets and/or to get them to do almost anything they suggest.

This post has been edited by lurker: May 9 2006, 07:16 PM

[Johann]

“Deep Pockets...”

Lets turn again to Danny’s benefactor. . . . this man sustain and protect Danny Shelton, for what purpose? Is it just his philanthropic nature getting the best of him? Perhaps there is someone else who would like to elaborate on these questions?

Stay tuned...

There is no doubt this benefactor is regarded as the greatest philanthropist within the Seventh-day Adventist Church. There are strong indications that he is really the man who governs our church, because many of our leaders dare not make a move without his approval. I have a notion they fear that the finances of the SDA church will crumble the moment the church makes moves that displease this benefactor.

How long shall we merely trust in Mammon rather than in the Lord?

[Chez]

There is no doubt this benefactor is regarded as the greatest philanthropist within the Seventh-day Adventist Church. There are strong indications that he is really the man who governs our church, because many of our leaders dare not make a move without his approval. I have a notion they fear that the finances of the SDA church will crumble the moment the church makes moves that displease this benefactor.

How long shall we merely trust in Mammon rather than in the Lord?

Who is this guy?

[PaperTigers]

If your truly doing God's work, than losing someone's financial backing won't be able to hurt you, because the money WILL come from somewhere else. And if it doesn't than you time is over, and God will find a different way to spread his message. Compromising can be a good thing, except when we compromise the right thing for financial gain....

btmo